It's weird how many people here truly think immigrants don't deserve due process.
They don't realize that without due process anyone can be called an illegal immigrant and jailed without any legal recourse. Because ... you know... immigrants don't deserve due process.
But government would never lie, right? Righttt?
Some many "freedom fighters" that only care about their own freedom!! 🤡🤡
"If you think you love freedom but you don't care if it applies to everyone, what you actually love is privilege."
“Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they cam for the Palestinians
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Palestinian
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me”
Due process is the process through which determinations about legality of actions are determined correct?
In the case of immigrants, production of proof of citizenship should assuage the crime of illegal entry. The act of producing or failing to prduce proof is the due process, right? Am I just unaware of cases where people are not identified and then deported based on no other facts?
"Due process" could also be with regards to immigration status. Kilmar Abrego Garcia was in the country legally when he was scooped up and deported to the CECOT gulag. The administration admitted an "administrative error" in this case.
I will never advocate for the government. I just want to understand what is being perceived to have happened. If the rule is "if you walk into the club house without a way to prove you are a member, you get kicked out" Then I don't understand the issue. If people are not given a chance to prove they're a member that is a different issue.
"If people are not given a chance to prove they're a member that is a different issue."
Given the context of your metaphor this is clearly the case with Garcia.
Agreed. But I would wager that's the exception not the rule correct? The government has killed innocent people as well, I would not debate that. The point is, is that the case for a majority of immigrants?
No I suppose it's not happening to the "majority" of immigrants, but it signals a pretty clear policy change, with new "boundary pushing" things happening every day. If I were an immigrant in the US, I would reasonably be scared as to whether I'm next.... Not wait until we start filling up trains with people.
Do you mean immigrant as in in the US illegally or just someone who immigrated? Because I am fairly certain current visas and green cards are still valid. But hey, I wouldn't put anything past the state. I guess it's sort of a question with what kind of state power you are more comfortable with:
Forced association- massive illegal immigration
Or
Forced Disassociation- massive illegal immigrant deportation
"Do you mean immigrant as in in the US illegally or just someone who immigrated?" We're going around in circles here. The context is specifically Abrego Garcia who is here *legally*, according to the Trump administration in legal filings.
"Forced association- massive illegal immigration" --- Nothing about this is "forced association." Private property allows one to exclude whomever one wants from property. Public property is another issue, and while there can be a "tragedy of the commons" effect I think the problem with home-grown homelessness and mental health issues is far greater than anything created by illegal immigration.
"Forced Disassociation" -- Yes, this one is the problem. If I choose to employ or associate with someone who happens to be on the other side of an arbitrary line, and some Band of Thugs kidnaps that person, then the Thugs are the aggressors and in the wrong.
Lol, the comment about majority precludes mention about the exception case you cited. So, yeah, I get that that 1 guy is an exception.
Secondly, it is absolutely forced association strictly BECAUSE of the forced sharing of public property. That's kinda my whole point. I don't believe in public property but because it is forced upon me I have to care about my associations due to it.
It's easy to see the forced disassociation but not the forced association to you? Read my bio, I am an anarchist not some statist but I can also recognize inconsistencies in morals.
OK sure, but the problem is more the existence of public property producing the "tragedy of the commons" issue.... Everyone's experience with this is different, but from my point of view living in a major US urban area, the problems of homelessness are much more pronounced than that of immigration....
And I think there is data to bear out the conclusion that homeless people are far greater consumers of public services and "disrupters" of public life (in whatever context you're referring to be "forced association") than immigrants.
That's not my argument. I'm not a utilitarian. Both things are bad. I agree that public property is a problem. The point I am making is one of force. If I am to be forced to either interact or not interact with anyone by a government. I would rather not interact because I can live my life free of interlopers.
OK sure, but in the context of immigration, are you really saying that the existence of public commons constitutes being "forced" to interact with other people? Because I think that's quite a stretch...
You could in principle live in a tower with a helipad, or Iive your existence on a private luxury yacht, never having to step foot on public property or be within 100 m of anyone outside of a carefully cultivated bubble.... it's super expensive of course, but it's possible.
And then the other problem is, from a fundamental moral perspective, if you are being "forced" to interact with people in public, then by reciprocity, they are being "forced" to interact with you. Who gets to have the moral claim of grievance here?
Yes, by definition. I did not invite them nor did anyone else. Therefore they impose themseves upon all of us. Unless the property is private it is impossible to know who is invited and who isn't.
The people native to the place having others imposed upon them have the grievance. That thought experiment logic you wrote is akin to If you don't want a burglar in your house and he does want you to attack him who is at fault? Nonsense.
Illegal immigrants are at the very least uninvited by the warlords who impose their will upon the people.
As long as there are public borders the anarchist argument is kind of moot though.
Courts don't matter much anymore. The Supreme Court can't even uphold the TikTok ban. They can't stop the Gulags either.
What would stop government agents from deporting me or you to an El Salvador prison? Are you ready to prove your citizenship at a moment's notice? Should we be required to carry our papers around at all times?
When the very question is whether someone has committed a crime, there has to be someone other than a government agent accusing you before the government can do something against you. Even if you believed that witches or terrorists or illegal aliens were subhuman and had no rights while non-witches or non-terrorists or non-aliens had rights there still must be a bootstrapping process (due process) to establish whether someone is in fact a witch or terrorist or illegal alien to avoid violating the rights of the non-witches or non-terrorists or non-aliens.
The only real rights are human rights: natural and negative rights. They do not apply to different classes of people. No one, not even citizens, have a "right" to health care, for example, they only have rights to not be prevented from voluntarily exchanging for health care, especially by a government.
So whatever that due process is, if the government has done it for that individual, they should deport. If they have not, they should not.
Dude, the law is a joke. The thing that stops them is probable cause and reasonable suspicion. Either way it's up to the warlords in control that do whatever they want.
Why won't they do that to me? Because I will shoot anyone who would try to kidnap me.
They can have there due process... Legaly At a official US entrypoint.
I want to see people using that excuse to jail US citizens that were born here. They are already jailing legal green card holders, so, it's just a small step away from any citizen.
I'm going to need to see some sauce.
If they commit a crime or violate the terms of their Visa or green card then they should be detained and get there day in court.(Due process).
I haven't seen any evidence to something happen to the contrary.
Please educate me as my mind is open on this topic.
Friedrich Nietzsche is known for the quote, "Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen”
Interesting thing.
Quote works well when:
A. Liberals are in power
B. Neocons/RINOS/Hawks are in power
C. Populists are in power
I wonder what would happen if libertarians ever got in power?
Libertarians don't have a viable plan for taking power and furthermore they constantly bleat about how it's actually _immoral_ to exercise power.
Don't hold your breath.
Oh I am aware.
The libertarian movement is in complete shambles and totally disorganized.
I sometimes wonder if the right and left conspire to place morons on the libertarian ticket. Or possibly LINOs
They need to focus less on drug freedom and more on limited government.
This bothers me way more than I wish it would.
Why do Americans bother with pledging alligence to the flag of the United States of America, AND TO THE REPUBLIC...when they don't even know what the hell a republic is?
A republic, as in "Republican" form of government has the seperation of powers. That no longer seems to be the type of government Americans want anymore. They want a strong leader who will use the power of the executive order to circumvent the Republican form of government and get things done.
I suspect this lack of respect for law and due process is a consequence of a broken monetary system. The sovereign debt crisis is causing the powers that be to use strong-arm tactics. Mandibles first, then hyperbitcoinization.
Yup.
Trump has already suggested shipping and locking up citizens in El Salvador.
Take away any ability to receive public assistance if they are here illegally. The problem will solve itself.
lol, do you think people pay 30k out of pocket to coyotes in Mexico to come here and receive crumbs from the government?
I don't care what they pay to get here illegally. If they don't receive free shit off the taxpayers dime they will more than likely return home. If they don't leave then eventually they'll be removed for breaking immigration law. NO TAXPAYER ASSITANCE FOR ILLEGALS.
You said that removing the assistance will magically resolve the problem. Which can only be a joke. The assistance (if any actually exists - you need documents to ask money from the government) it not what's holding anyone here.
Which individual do you feel did not get due process?
All of them. None of them have had their appearance days in court with appropriate defense.
The US could have deported them without the courts involvement. But no, it decided to jail them. And that requires due process.
Its difficult to discuss broadly. An individual case would at least allow us to be specific. Innthe case of the guy who lived in Maryland. He was an illegal immigrant from El Salvador. He had two deportwtion orders (by courts of course), and multiple courts came to the conclusion he was MS-13. He was returned to his home country.
Im not a lawyer, but it doesnt seem like a lack of due process.
Part of due process is the procedure for each of them is fully public with reasons debated in a court. The simple fact we can't find that indo already reveals that things where not correctly done.
Hes a citizen of El Salvador. Two deportation orders and found to be MS-13, by courts. Returned home.
Regardless. Lets say there are 1,000,000+ illegal immigrants in the USA. How would the courts handle that due process?
That is just one out of the 300 or so already jailed. Not a single one should be in jail without due process, regardless on how long this will take.
If courts are slow, that's the government's own fault.
Thanks for engaging.
Real quick.
1,000,000 illegal immigrants. 1 hour each for due process. 1 million hours. 41,666 24 hour days. 114 years 24/7. Just food for thought.
Yep, that is the cost to not fuck up and deport citizens to places they have never been without any visa to come back.
The USA has had rogue administrations that effectively allowed this illegal immigration. it is not fair to Americans that they cant have a court system now bwcause of it. These arent even citizens! There has to be an advantage to being a citizen over an illegal.
Cool!! So when US tourists gets assaulted or or killed in foreign countries, they shouldn't get justice, they are not citizen.
When Americans commit crimes in foreign countries, they should be deported to foreign countries
Countries like Afghanistan, Russia, Iran would love to host them.
There are punishments for crimes, no matter your immigration status, of course. If your crime is illegally entering a country, the punishment is go home. If you are also a criminal in addition to the illegal immigration, maybe jail.
Nope! Not a citizen, no right. We do what we want with you.
No one is suggesting that "we do what we want with you" for simply being a non-citizen.
If you illegally enter a country, and get caught, woudlnt you expect to be sent home?
You would think. But the US has adopted a new policy by which they are not returning people to their country of citizenship.
Non-Mexicans have been deported to Mexico. A mother of four children was deported with two of her kids, the two others remained in the US. She is not from Mexico. She is a foreigner with nothing, no job, and two kinds. Had they been sent back home, they would have had their family to help them out.
Usually, the process for deportation requires the government to prove the criteria for deportation are met, allows for the defendant to have representation, and requires for a judge to decide on the merit of the case if the defendant contests the deportation. But the US government doesn't follow those rules.
To make things worst, in the case of El Salvador, the US government is contracting the El Salvadorian government to detain people they have deported. In other words they are paying to have people detained in a foreign country without having being charged for a crime.
The US has deported Venezuelan to El Salvador. Some of them were legally living in the US.
One Salvadoran legally living in the US, and has a protected status preventing his deportation to El Salvador, was deported to El Salvador. He is in jail, not with his family. The US government won't bring him back.
That's why due process is important. You can't let government agents decide who gets deported and to which country. With the courts, the process is public and fallows a clearly defined process. With ICE, the process is secretive and arbitrary.
The government is not transparent about who is being deported. Some families discovered a family member had been deported because they saw them in a video filmed in an El Salvadorian prison.
How would Americans react if compatriots where deported to a foreign country without due process? My guess is, they would be outraged.
Ive been engaging on this topic for some days, so this may be my last reply.
There are so many people in the US illegally, it would be basically impossible to give all of them due process and also have a court system. Even just 1,000,000 people (and its way more), at 1 hour per person of due pricess, is 1,000,000 hours.. Im not saying they shouldnt get it, but because there were administrations allowing an open border (illegally) this is a mess.
Entering the US illegally is a crime. No other ceime needs to be committed to be deported.
Venezuela will not accept their citizens back from the US, so they had to send them somewhere.
The "one salvadoran legally living in the US", it seems from what I am seeing the guy illegally entered the US, he had two legal deportation orders, and two courts found him to be tied to MS-13 and human trafficking. Also hes an El Salvadoran citizen, so he is back in his country of citizenship.
Americans would be outraged if they were deported to a foreign country, but they are not too worried about that, because they are legal citizens of the US. Trump made that comment about " home growns", and I am not a fan, but I also have no info to know exactly what that means.
I fully admit, its very difficult to get good info, or to even know what is true and what isnt. I also dont want any negativity for anyone, but i also understand why Americans dont like that so many people completely disrespect their immigration laws. I think the estimate is 13,000,000 people who went to the US illegally. Then many need assistance from the government (tax payers). Its a tough situation.
Abrego Garcia is a legal resident of the United States. His wife is an American citizen. He has no charges against him. He has a valid work permit. He is a sheet metal worker.
The federal judge presiding over his case said he has no criminal record in the US or El Salvador, and the gang ties is an unsubstantiated allegation.
In 2019, an immigration judge granted him legal protection from deportation on the grounds that he might be at risk of persecution from local gangs.
The court found his deportation illegal. The government acknowledged he was mistakenly deported to an El Salvador mega-prison.
The Supreme Court said that deportation requires due process and that the people sent El Salvador were not given due process.
"The Government's argument, moreover, implies that it could deport and incarcerate any person, including U. S. citizens, without legal consequence, so long as it does so before a court can intervene," wrote Justices Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan and Ketanji Brown Jackson in a statement released with the Abrego Garcia ruling.
Trump asked Bukele to open 5 more facilities for homegrown criminals.
Personally, I don't think that extraordinary renditions going mainstream is good for democracy.
Yes, that is the media's take. I think youll find it to be wrong in time, like most of their takes. But maybe not, and if youre right that Garcia is just a good guy legal resident that was wrongfully deported, then I was wrong. When you have millions of people to deport, youre bound to get something wrong (although Im not convinced this one was wrong yet).
You will also find that the state tends to be wrong a lot. In fact, I would almost always side against the state because it is so hilariously wrong all the time. That's why courts exist. Because if not, aganst run wild and put everyone they don't like out.
Thats true, so we have no good sources of information, yet almost everyone is certain about their facts. Regardless, the US still has a problem of too many illegal immigrants and not enough courts. I dont expect them to just take that on the chin.
Then let's just deport everyone. All citizens and aliens alike since we are not checking which one is which anyway..
Vitor thats just an emotional response. I understand where youre coming from, but it does not address the problem.
Im finding it difficult to understand why so many people think its not a huge problem to have millions of people illegally enter a country. I would hope people could at least acknowledge that, and talk about legitimate pathways to solving that problem.
Nobody is debating the problem of millions of people illegally here. All we are saying is that we CANNOT let government run free with deportations into slave labor. Otherwise, they will come for you and I in the same way, lying their way to get political points with their bosses.
I agree we should not let the government "run free with deportations to slave labor", obviously. I assume you would agree that path is not the typical deportation path.
And yes there are many people in the US that want to give those people status, so it is a debate.
The government has unlimited funds to scale up criminal investigations and prosecutions regardless if people are alien or not. They just need to do that and make their case.
This is not hard. It's just the bare minimum they must do. If they cannot find evidence of wrong doing, then leave people alone.
Yes. This is so obvious evidence that “the gubment” is a criminal enterprise that no sovereign individual can either trust, or benefit from. This is not news, it is just much more brazen in this than past administrations.
And how long would that take? Long enough for another election? Maybe it never happens then? These would be the concerns of the opposing side. The country voted for the guy that said he would send people home, and pretty overwhelmingly. Think El Salvador. Those people are pretty happy with Bukele, and he had to go around normal processes. I am sure noone wants to go back to gangs overrunning the country. Just something to consider.
We could go all day, but we are going in circles. Ill end it here for me anyway. So long as we have countries, taxes, social security, welfare, etc, I dont think its Ok to enter countries illegally. I do think you should be sent home for that. I dont think a country should have to take it on the chin if so many people illegally enter that its impossible to remove them.
Again, the government can scale it up as much as it wants. It's on them to move fast or not. They can decide to just deport people in the usual way by sending them to be free in another country, and that can be fast and easy, or decide to put them in jail. If they go for jail, they need to go through the courts.
Yes, they voted for Trump, but nobody voted to change the laws of the country. If they want to make that proposition, they can go through Congress as usual and let's see what people will vote for. Right now, EVERYONE has the right to due process. EVERYONE.
It's not the media's take, it's federal courts and supreme court decisions, and it's Trump' words.
Due process and judicial review is there to limit things going wrong.
Either the rule of law matters or it doesn't. If it does, the government has to follow the laws and court orders. If it doesn't, the government get to do what it wants.
Of course that's the media's take.
So then you must be against what Bukele has done in El Salvador, right? He had to suspend certain rights to clean up his streets. His whole country loves him for it, but if they had it your way, Salvadorans would still be living in a nightmare.
Trump has always had a fascination for dictators: Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin, and Viktor Orban. His latest bromance is with Nayib Bukele, the "world's coolest dictator," as he likes to call himself.
Trump said he would be a dictator on Day 1. And he is delivering.
Bukele is helping him by offering to jail the people he doesn't want, including US citizens. For a fee of course.
You think Trump having the power to disappear people to El Salvador is a good thing.
There are many gangs operating in the US and criminals with no gang affiliation.
So let's "suspend certain rights" and "clean up the streets."
Let's disregard the Constitution and the laws, remove judges, intimidate political adversaries, crack down on journalists and activities, bypass due process, and ignore term limits.
What can go wrong?
I don't share you dictatorial tendencies. It never ends well for the people.
Where is that jail you want to put 1,000,000 illegal migrants into?
No one wants to put 1,000,000 people in jail. Mostly they should just go back home. Should not have went to the US illegally of course.
Also, you can deport them instead of putting them in jail. Deportation means they are free somewhere else. Jail means that they are not free. If gov wants to take people freedom away the MUST go through the courts in every single case.
El Salvador put them in Jail
The US paid to put them in jail. This is not el Salvador's doing. El salvador is just being host.
Birth certificate supremacy
Hope to hear Marty's opinion about this on nostr:nprofile1qqs879mhq6kkuzh2wk57xdzanl76uem8d7hlyjd7v4a4jcm4u88d8ygprdmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujucnfw33k76twwpshy6ewvdhk6qgewaehxw309aek2mnyd96zumn0wdnxcctjv5hxxmmdqyt8wumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnswf5k6ctv9ehx2aq4gjn9u
Illegal immigrants are the issue
Sure, but without due process what forbids a government to call anyone, including US born citizens, an illegal immigrant and deport everybody without any recourse? There is no legal recourse. They just need to lie and label you an immigrant.
How can US born citizens be considered illegal immigrants?
The due process is to use existing legal pathways to enter the country.
Abrego Garcia was here legally.
They’re the kind of people who believe that land ownership belongs to the government, not the individual landowner. In other words, they’re basically communists—though they probably don’t even realize it themselves. It’s ironic how they also claim to love Bitcoin.
Basically you are not allowed to stay in a country without A - being a citizen of that country OR B - without a permit to stay there. No lawyers are needed to debate this, either you have A or B or not. This happens all over the world.
I don't have a right to do anything just because we all live in this world together and borders are wrong etc.
Asking for due process in this case is asking to find some legal trickery to stay in a country when you are not allowed to, by law.
> Basically you are not allowed to stay in a country without A - being a citizen of that country OR B - without a permit to stay there. No lawyers are needed to debate this, either you have A or B or not. This happens all over the world.
It depends on the country and on the relationship between two different countries and what you mean by "stay".
For example, you can stay for a while in any EU country if you are a EU citizen, even if you aren't a citizen of that country (or move there, with some additional bureaucracy).
Also, OP didn't argue illegal immigrants shouldn't be deported, or even that they shouldn't be jailed, but that this should require due process. Due process is done to determine whether the law has been broken, according to the criteria established by law. The fact that the law establishes criteria isn't a point against due process, it's the whole foundation of due process.
