A broad retrospective study cannot refute a randomized, placebo controlled trial. And its the exact sort of study that is very easy to manipulate.

There are actually companies that do this as a marketing tool. They literally design retrospectives to give or present certain results from the outset.

If you think you have proven something by pointing to a retrospective study and think this means we can just never do the actual placebo controlled trails (or ignore their results). Then you are explicitly rejecting good science because bad science justifies your bias.

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Had to look up what a retrospective study is. It seems pretty weak. Who's using it to refute a controlled trial?

I think this is how vaccines have been studied.

This is inaccurate. The Pfizer Covid vaccines underwent a fairly large double blind placebo controlled trial. The original polio vaccine was a massive trial where the control group got saline and got sick/died and the vaccinated group did not.

The irony of this comment is that the studies of vaccine injury are always retrospectives. There are no double blind placebo controlled studies that the antivaxers can use to prove injury or lack of effectiveness or secret 5g brain control or whatever.

Oh interesting I just looked into it, the study was only 6 months before blinds were removed. Which chatgpt tells me is common of vaccines.

What's your view nostr:nprofile1qqstnem9g6aqv3tw6vqaneftcj06frns56lj9q470gdww228vysz8hqpzdmhxue69uhkzmr8duh82arcduhx7mn9qy2hwumn8ghj7etyv4hzumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgqgdwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkcam28zl, could there be an argument that the long term safety or effects of something can really only be inferred by retrospective since there's no long term double blind test to compare against?

1. Have you actually look at the covid trial?

2. If you are referring to the Salk vaccine trial, this was an efficacy trial, not a safety trial. The only trials for any vaccine i have found with a real placebo (i've spent literally dozens of hours on this) have explicitly been efficacy, none were safety trials. I keep asking for someone to find one for me with no luck so far.

Why would they run separate trials for safety and efficacy when the same trial can test both? A vaccine that is effective at preventing a disease by rendering the patient dead is of no use. Likewise an injection of something that is completely safe but offers no protection from a disease is a waste of time. Testing for safety and effectiveness is how vaccine studies are designed.

Now there are always ethical questions with any double blind placebo test. A child injected with a dangerous vaccine dies and everyone loses their mind…likewise the placebo child dies of polio but the neighbors kid gets the safe effective test and lives. Sometimes to advance you have to make some hard choices.

So it’s better to just go ahead and force it on everyone instead ?

Without ever really knowing?

I don’t agree with forcing anything on anyone. I’m simply pointing out that the studies are double blind placebo whereas the evidence for harm comes from retrospective analysis of alleged harm.

Again, there is no double blind placebo controlled safety trial. You can’t just say “they can do both at once” an ignore the fact that they simply didn’t do that.

My point was there are no specific safety trials because they measure effectiveness and safety concurrently. How would a safety specific trial differ from the current standard?

Have you actually not looked at the trials? They explicitly separate them and are required to for pre approval trials. The details of each can be found in all of the package inserts.

Yes. Here is the package insert for Pfizer https://www.fda.gov/media/151707/download the safety data is on pages 6-21. It’s all the same trials they just separate the data because efficacy and safety are concerned with different data points.

Later package inserts got updated safety data once they learned about further risks for specific populations.

I don’t know why they choose to do them separately, but they literally do. None of the efficacy trials test or look for any of the problems that people are concerned with. The record “redness at the site” and “sore arm.” Barely a handful of localized and low risk concerns. Why don’t you ask the manufacturers why they refuse to do a real safety trial?

And on your point that retrospectives are the only evidence against, you’re right, which is why for *decades* they have demanded a real placebo controlled safety trial. Broad retrospectives cannot prove or disprove anything, they are useful to decide whether something warrants much more serious scientific investigation. Which is exactly the point. The hundreds of mothers who walked into the pediatrician with a perfectly normal, loving child and had a child that reversed their potty training, stopped reaching up for hugs, and literally “turned off” within 24-48 hours of their visit are demanding the science be done. Yet the very institutions that should be required refuse to do so, and have co-opted th regulatory agencies so horribly that they bought themselves permanent immunity from any and all consequence relate to this “perfectly safe” product that they will not do a serious clinical safety trial for.

I’m sorry but tha just smells like bullshit from 50 different directions. And we went through this exact same thing for decades with the tobacco industry. They have scientific paper after scientific paper and retrospective studies upon studies showing how safe it was and that there was no way it caused cancer. Yet here we are.

I start looking when there’s a yellow flag. But when I spend dozens of hours and every single corner I think I’m about to find this “excellent science” I run into a dead end and an excuse… I’d have to be an idiot to take them at their word.

"Retrospectively speaking Bitcoin is the best performing asset in history." This cherry picking mentality is why I hate that statement, what Bitcoin did from 2011 to 2017 price wise is entirely and wholly irrelevant to today and Bitcoin's future. Not that it gets talked about a lot but when people *couch* Jack Mallers *couch* highlight it I get frustrated because there is so much future looking things worth highlighting that even spend 10 seconds on past price is a waist.

People just need to admit that they’re scared of needles.

Vaccines are safe and effective. An actual scientific / medical miracle.

You can’t make a scientific claim when the very science needed to suggest it is safe hasn’t been done, and in fact those responsible refuse to do it and make excuses.

You can’t get both. Saying something is absolutely safe requires the serious, randomized placebo controlled trials that would be the beginning of showing this. And then the long term prospective comparison studies. These would be the absolute least possible to be able to back up that claim. And all of the above they refuse to do.

This isn’t to say vaccines don’t work, which some people think they don’t but I don’t see the evidence for that. There are some that seem totally ambiguous, but most work. And the very reason they do work (the adjuvants) is exactly why people are concerned about the safety an the fact that the companies responsible refuse to properly test them, and then demand legal immunity at the same time. That doesn’t pass the common sense test.

Nothing is 100% safe for all people. But it’s like 99.9% and vaccines have saved innumerable lives. Thanks to vaccine skeptics now we are seeing measles again and soon enough we may see polio. It’ll take much suffering to undo the damage inflicted by anti vaxxers.

Where do we get this 99.9% number when the very science needed to make that claim has never been done? If one resorts to just pulling numbers out of one’s ass, you ought to realize such a thing is a *belief* and not science. I realize that you and I were told this is true, but why is the largest demographics of those who are certain vaccines cause significant damage, made up of mothers of autistic children? There’s quite possibly no group *less* incentivized to believe such a thing as this group, yet here we are.

And if we just look at the general health of the population over the last 30-40 years and the explosion of chronic disease, it’ll have to be profound for “the damage” of people skeptical of those who refuse to back up their claims to compare to the damage of the health establishment’s practices and standards and their results.

Teach G