All client devs should try to use nostr with a smaller account to understand how stupid nostr is at discovery.
Discussion
Also hard to get anyone to follow you even sharing content
Following strangers on the interney without consistently noticing their proof of work is very stupid, there should be other ways, I'm betting on topics.
After shipping Bitalk I'm also thinking that using self-assigned topics for discovery can be a good idea. It could be exploited with spammy behaviors, but there are some measures (e.g. WoT) to mitigate the problem.
After shipping Bitalk I'm also thinking that using self-assigned topics for discovery can be a good idea. It could be exploited with spammy behaviors, but there are some measures (e.g. WoT) to mitigate the problem.
Simple curation like (mark as off topic) with a filtered by contacts feed would do, that's what we're doing on pollerama.fun
Ok, lets start all over again.
Everyone jump in an alt, we're going for a ride lol
Discovery is a broad term though. You mean getting noticed right?
Getting noticed is only from the perspective of a new user, but even for older users, I had no clue nostr had so much content on such diverse topics until I worked on topics on pollerama.
On other platforms I check a few lists (i.e. circles or aspects) of people. Wouldn't mind having a few hashtags to swipe through (e.g. #artstr, #asknostr, #musicstr) as well.
Yes hashtags are hugely under-utilised discovery mechanisms
you can search 10015, so for one tag t you can find 100 tags and have notes from the tag
Is there a nip? Is it like related hashtags feature?
Basically you add interest to kind 1 feeds, the list is on nip-51 https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/master/51.md
they should also try to sell something or have a customer relationship so they realize how stupid nostr DMs are.
i'm going to fix this without the cooperation of rockstar client devs by creating an extended "privileged event" processing scheme where the relay will recognise a tag on events to mean that only the author and tagged npubs can fetch the event.
with that, i will be able to make "only visible to you" messages that put the communication from the relay (or anyone) right in your kind 1 feed. the limitation will be of course that the relay has to support this kind and respect the privilege but it works around the customer communication problem.
i'll be implementing it as part of a system to automate relay subscription such that the user just zaps the relay npub and it then publishes a message internally that your kind 1 client will fetch (so, you have to follow, and then zap the relay) and voila. customer comms problem solved.
since i started working with you, i swore that i would build a relay that would be so compelling that you would adopt it for your infrastructure. it won't be much longer now.
i'll also be learning front end dev in the coming weeks as i'm going to get paid to do it for a while. so probably i will add a full UI that is returned when you request to the / with a normal browser request (and thus also visible in nostrudel's relay UI tab).
this all sounds nice, I've prob spent too much time in my self-built UI prison lately and it made me curmudgenly today. need to step back and reset ..
yeah, the "easy" solution is UI but it doesn't integrate neatly with the clients, at all. that was how i came up with the idea. no extra wingdings or widgets required, it can all be done on the back end, with the things that client devs *have* implemented.
and you know very well the reason why they have not implemented DMs properly is because they all have superstitions that you can have a relay based architecture while making it zero trust. ridiculous. of course you have to trust the relay operator. further, you can BE the relay operator yourself, but this is a high bar to enable general use, so ultimately trustworthy, honorable relay operators are needed to bridge the gap.
we aren't going to get feted for this, but who cares. the satisfaction of doing what is required for your customers is a much better and more intimate reward.
We should have a nostrwide onboard sprint in September, where we critique and fix all our projects to be the best onboard experience we can offer. All hands on deck, do focus groups, users can spam projects with issues/ideas, create on board content.
Starting fresh is lame on many clients, we take already being here and having pals for granted.
Discovery on nostr is a myth. It’s just posting into the void.
Found you, void hollerer
I see you bru 👀
Dr. nostr:npub12rv5lskctqxxs2c8rf2zlzc7xx3qpvzs3w4etgemauy9thegr43sf485vg did a thing 😁🤙
What? Who said that?!
But you merely adopted the void.
I was born in it. Molded by it.
gm
use hashtags, it helps
Yes, that's what https://pollerama.fun/feeds/topics is all about
nostr discovery is pretty easy... it's the being heard part that is the challenge.
Your on nostr for discovery? 🤔
I post into the void because I want to post into a void.
Yea, DVM's, hashtags, logging in as someone else to use their follows, and sites like following.space are far too hard. Much better to get centralized algorithms to hook you up with AI curated lists of bots.
Okay, how often do you log in as someone else and bouncing between sites ? Seems like waste of time!
I just started using it and it feels soulless and disconnected. Algorithms are very key to the magic of social media
Nostr is about real connections imo...engaging with others is key. Find your follow packs: https://following.space/
Interesting, what even made this post appear in my feed
Reposts, which is the only way.
algún dev tiene que dejar de pensar nostr solo como un protocolo y ponerse a hacer una red social de verdad
Yes, biggest problem IMO also. I want to use Nostr and be presented with new and interesting things.. too often I get a stream of "GM" and people talking about their cats. It's challenging to compete with X or other centralized services which are great at surfacing interesting stuff.
You can honestly post your thoughts in a multiplayer game chat lobby and get more responses than on nostr
wonder how discoverable you would be when posting something they don’t want you on a legacy platforms
That is not an excuse to not fix discovery problems on this protocol.
I’ve been saying that rebuilding Reddit functionality could be the solution
Could be crazy simple - just multiple signatures, author and a mod. A kind that defines mods, topic name and description.
Then a kind for following topics, maybe a kind listing membership.
That’s really it.
Mods are stupid, no one owns a topic, it should be moderated by "everyone" filtered by WoT.
I've done it here: https://pollerama.fun/feeds/topics
Completely disagree. Mods are really the only non-algo way to keep a topic focused. Otherwise just use hashtags.
If someone hates the particular mods of a particular topic, just start a competing topic.
Games (large group discussions) need either need referees (mods) or a computer (algorithm) to define the boundaries of the game
You only say this because you've not seen what curation could be like on nostr, reddit sucks extremely and we can create a better version here. We don't have to copy the stupid stuff.
Try pollerama.fun/feeds/topics it's extremely early I'm fixing a lot of stuff still, but it'll give you an idea of what it can be.
Reddit has 110 million daily users
They had 54 million before the surfacing algorithm became central in 2021
Enough people hate algorithmic manipulation that a competitor stripped clean of it could do well
Following topics is an easier sell than following people
Nostr is only doing as well as it is because a subset of Bitcoin Twitter moved here when nostr:npub1sg6plzptd64u62a878hep2kev88swjh3tw00gjsfl8f237lmu63q0uf63m did. In some sense, the entire user base is the “Bitcoin” topic. It would be great if an entire existing community could move to Nostr rails without being turned off by Bitcoin talk. Think heavily censored groups like anti-vax moms. People who don’t like Zionism. 9/11 truthers.
Mods allow for white list posting, which these sorts of communities are already very familiar and comfortable with. They just need a platform that the whole community can’t be banned from.
Reddit imo was a solid improvement over the traditional forum, because it allowed the group to elevate the most interesting or helpful responses to the question/post. But it was still a defined space of likeminded people.
I think you’re missing the point. Nostr in its current form appeals to an existing group of users, bitcoiners, and no one else. The goal for Nostr development should not be to attract users, it should be to attract existing groups away from centralized platforms (which all groups are fatigued by). The first influx of users won’t be building new groups and relationships, they’ll be coming with those connections already formed from other platforms
I think you're missing the point, did you even see the feed I gave you? I'm trying to preserve the existing connection as much as possible, but you don't have to carry the legacy stupidity along with it.
So you think your solution is definitively better than n/ communities with a moderator in all cases? Why?
Yup!
That is 100% false. Topics are incoherent and subjective without that performative element that having a tyrannical moderator introduces. There can still be a dialogue or splinter factions regarding the necessary and sufficient conditions for something to be in a topic, but unless you can point to a specific person who created and owned them, you can't say that a topic exists in any meaningful way.
Nostr's greatest virtue is that nobody owns the users or their notes, but that's also its greatest flaw.
Tyranny only occurs when you can’t exit. All cyber communities are opt-in, opt-out.
No one owns a “topic” but, yes, people organize themselves into groups and submit to rules and enforcement by leaders every single day
They do this because it brings benefits that you seem totally unaware of, despite all the evidence
Most people don’t want to scream into an open, unbounded void, and until someone defines boundaries they don’t see the appeal, this is why Nostr is not seeing adoption
Right, nothing wrong with leaders and owners of communities.
Eh, I dunno. If a moderator refuses to announce, explain, or accept feedback on their judgements then I consider that pretty tyrannical, especially if they try to present an appearance of being more levelheaded and principled than they actually are.
When my account disappeared from funnyjunk.com nobody knew it happened. Even I didn't get any kind of message or notification indicating that I was being kicked out by an actual person and not just some cryptic bug. It was very clear that many users and moderators looked down on me, but even the administrator refused to publicly stand by what happened to my accout. Personally, I'd like to be able to call that tyrannical, even if us users technically had the ability to opt out of things that we were not allowed to know were happening
Since that event, my highest standard for a platform is that there be tangible guaruntees and transparency for its users.
Everything else you said is spot on though.
So my idea solves for this exact situation
Everything about the group - name, description, mods, members, ban list, rules for posting (really just preferred instructions for client filters), relays, everything - would all be contained in one canonical event. Then that event could be hosted as many places as possible. Then all the other event kinds, posts, comments, upvotes/downvotes, etc would be stored on at least the relays listed in the canonical event.
So in your case you would be able to publicly see when the members list and/or ban list was updated to change your status. (And theoretically you could also have a kind that is moderator endorsements before a canonical kind is considered official, so you could see which mods endorsed this update.)
You wouldn’t lose your identity or any of your previous posts, provided copies of them still exist somewhere, it’s just that default client behavior would now be to filter your content out and prevent you from signing new events from your npub. If you had a copy of your data you could archive it, display it, etc.
It wouldn’t keep the mods from kicking you out, but it would keep them from being able to pretend they didn’t know what happened and have you lose all history of your account like it never existed.
Excuse my ignorance
1. Using nostr with a smaller account - what does this mean.
2. nostr stupid at discovery ? - clarify.
I'm not a developer.
I'm getting the message that nostr is not meeting expectations.
Perhaps we need to list specifics to create a nostr expectations index .
For me - Nostr currently meets my needs
Primal is teaching me how to take control of my privacy.
Learning about new apps for private communications.
Reading through the implications of legislation designed to channel BTC into government coffers.
AI updates.
Currently studying the DARPA Theory of Mind Warfare - from Doug Casey's International Man.
I don't expect followers, zaps or other social media comparisons .
Just important information to help me create a parallel system in a dystopian world.
Learning payment systems through Nostr is next on my list.
Each of us have different realities and use Nostr to address our own needs. I am sincerely grateful for the protocol .
Glad that you're liking it here, have fun!
Sarcasm doesn't wash. I note you didn't answer the questions to your statement .
Nostr falls short in terms of discovery, right now discovery depends on other big follower profiles sharing your content, If they don't agree with it, it's as good as dead. Or you could get zapped largely by holders or however primal tries to solve discovery.
While this may work for you, and if it does there's really nothing that needs to be done, it was not sarcasm.
But this definitely doesn't work for a lot of people, especially when solutions are possible.
Hashtags are a joke here, they are literally the easiest curation mechanism but no one is looking at how it can be made better.
I've done a lot of work on pollerama.fun to be able to solve this, it even has hashtag curation and moderator selection, and it's good and it works for me, it's just hard to get the word out, especially with the existing discovery being a joke 😂
#rant
stay strong, good apps that are stuck with will weather the vibestorm. users are shellshocked rn.
True and that implies that people outside of the bitcoin space are shouting into the void...
They are
Glad this issue gets rediscovered occasionally.
Thank you for the comprensive breakdown
Sorry, I've got a trigger happy mouse.
Correct me please.
Nostr is not attracting more members?
Compared to other social media platforms, I consider Nostr in the embryonic stage.
My assumption is that Nostr, much like BTC's birth, started very small and then went through the 5 stages of grief.
BTC faced disbelief, mockery, attacks, negotiation and finally acceptance
We are really early. A perfect time to learn, adopt, test the apps that are being developed. Watching the internet kyc launch, and the payment methods being squashed by the predators. Gatekeeping, chokepoints, laws made to outlaw Nostr will happen .
Once the sheep realise freedom of speech and control of money trading is getting choked off - they will find Nostr.
They need to go through the pain first.
1. losing their assets.
2. censorship
3. communication networks under strict control.
And Nostr will be ready and waiting.
Please forgive my assumption of sarcasm.
And thank you for explaining, so I could understand.
It's very difficult to find accounts worth following when you first make an account.
I hear you. It depends on what you're looking for and level of understanding . Bitcoin brought me to Nostr. Nostr showed me the privacy based apps currently in development mode.
I love Nostr's vibrancy. From Jack Dorsey, Lyn Alden, Alex Gladstein, Jeff Booth and many more who are focused on the sustainability of BTC.
Look into yourself and identify what YOU want to do.
I came here to learn stuff. And so many things I didn't know or understand - Nostr is helping me.
Bingo 🎯