Yeah, gout is also my worry, since it's quite common in our family. Did anyone try keto with gout? I would be amazed if the meat doesn't cause huge flair the next day...
Discussion
I started keto about a week ago and immediately had an attack. That sent me digging and questioning my priors, and deciding it wasn't for me.
I started with a 36 hour fast and I was definitely in keto without the "flu" people complain about. Then I ate keto only the next day, unfortunately by eating bacon and fatty lamb which set off the attack.
Technically keto is from a lack of carbs. A water fast puts you into keto. So it's not strictly incompatible with gout. But to practice it long-term you need to replace the carbs with something, and usually that is fat. If it's a bottle of canola oil you won't get gout, but if it is fatty meat you might. But there are other reasons not to go drinking canola oil.
You might try MCT oil. Also, how high is your A1C? If there is insulin in your blood, you literally cannot metabolize fatty acids for energy. Forty dollars or so buys a blood glucose tester, and forty more buys a blood ketone tester. I recommend both if you’re going to do this.
My Hba1c has never been above 33 mmol/mol, which is low (healthy). I don't measure my blood sugar with a glucose tester because it has never been a problem. I burn fat just fine: I fast and lose weight rapidly while feeling fine, never weak or tired.
What's these reasons against canola oil? (Guess your concerns are more general than just literally drinking it.)
I did read some scary headlines about it somewhere that mostly sounded like FUD. I guess your stance is more nuanced?
My current opinion is that native canola is pretty healthy, likely healthier than olive oil, if you have fresh produce that isn't rancid and you store it well (cool), use it up quick and don't heat it much.
Same with native linseed oil that's said to be even more valuable because of ALA which is said to be partially catalyzed to EPA and DHA in the body.
"don't heat it much"
your body is almost 40C... PUFAs might take a lot longer to oxidize at that temperature than 200C but how long is it inside your body?
I'm not a biologist .. but some rule of thumb states that the chemical reaction speed roughly doubles with 10 K temperature increase. So at 40 C the oxidation might run at ~ 1/64 speed compared to at 100 C.
Also, preventing oxidation of fatty acids in the body appears to be one function of vitamin E: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_E#Functions
so instead of a minute in the frying pan it takes an hour, by which point it has yet to be absorbed in the gut, much less expelled
Sounds like you're assuming that one minute in the frying pan at 100 C or one hour in the body at 37 C already leads to a degree of oxidation that flips the balance from "contains PUFA and is overall beneficial to the body" to "contains some PUFA but also oxidized FA and is overall detrimental to the body".
Are you familiar with any facts to base this assumption on?
I don't think there's any point at which seed oils are beneficial to the body
The main fatty acid in most seed oils is linoleic acid, which has a clear disease pathway:
Linoleic acid metabolism is suppressed in diseased individuals:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9722286/
Linoleic acid levels are significantly associated with HNE (which linoleic acid produces when oxidized as in cooking) in both the general population and even more strongly in diseased individuals:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213231713000979
HNE is "the most toxic" aldehyde and involved in "important neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's desease, multiple sclerosis and other diseases such as cancer, diabetes, inflammatory complications, atherosclerosis, osteoporosis, cataract and age-related macular degeneration." :
Also I'm looking for specific claims about the rate of oxidation and not seeing a paper on that topic, but I am seeing plenty that claim various connections between (dietary) linoleic acid and disease:
https://openheart.bmj.com/content/5/2/e000898
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10671267/
Thanks for the links. I'll check them out.
This article seems to show that 225C for 25 minutes produces toxic levels of oxidation products in seed oils:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3118035/
so that rules out using them as frying oil (IMO) but of course the dose makes the poison
225 C is quite harsh.
Compare that to my usual procedure when making use of oils such as native lin seed oil or native canola oil:
- storing the oil with the glass bottle tightly sealed, in the fridge
- using the oil not for cooking but instead adding the oil to the finished meal just before eating
This way, the oil will be heated to maybe 60-70 °C at most and only for a few minutes while it's subjected to oxygen/air.
The first question I ask when I hear a person is suffering from gout is, have you cut all alcohol consumption? The mechanism for gout is steady levels of blood borne metabolites, uric acid for the most part. With consistent high blood concentrations, in low blood flow areas, the metabolites form crystals much like minerals form stalactites when mineral rich water drips consistently in a cave. These crystals lodge in your joints causing inflammation and pain. Lower the metabolite concentration and the crystals will dissolve.
Yeah, unfortunately in my 2 closest cases it's non-drinkers & meat-lovers that got gout.
After eating a bit of a good meat, they couldn't walk the next day. After 1-2 years of diet it got better and now they both can eat meat once in a while without issues.
Next to alcohol, it seems like gout might be related more to insuline resistance and fructose consumption https://tim.blog/2009/10/05/gout/
This was really interesting. Thank you for sharing! I’ve often thought that incomplete protein decomposition into glucose and waste might contribute as well. Fructose is actually worse for the liver than alcohol, talk about metabolites in the blood serum! As an older man, the more frequent and urgent urination lead me to questions about what my kidneys were trying so desperately to filter from my blood and expel from my body. Fasting helps to secure a place to start in diet experimentation, as our bodies are complex and often it is a combination of multiple factors contributing to the outcome. Eat one thing if that is what it takes, then add and add again. Becoming malnourished as a result of improper nutrition literally takes months, so be brave!
Yes.
I don't have insulin resistance, my insulin response is wicked solid, and I don't consume much fructose (I love fat, sour and bitter, like a good German... sweet isn't my thing). But yes, for many this is the pathway that gave them gout. For me, I was eating lots of lamb -- I raise sheep so it's essentially free food for me. Lots of lamb. So for me, that was probably how I got gout.
Your gout is an interesting puzzle where all the usual pieces don’t fit when they usually go. The only thing I can think of is metabolite concentrations are too high because you’re eating too often. Gout as a general condition isn’t exclusively caused by uric acid, though that is the most common culprit. I also wonder if it isn’t caused by something in your water? Personally I would change all my dietary routines drastically one at a time until I found the source of the problem. It might take a while, but gout can be a lifetime lasting painful problem. Worth it!
Yes I cut out alcohol completely. As well as aspirin, yeast, spirulina, baby spinach, parsley, organ meats, and red meat (not that I was eating spirulina or yeast or even parsley which I absolutely hate). Plus my doctor put me on allopurinol. I am confident the monosodium urate crystals will melt away completely within in a few months, now that I know what causes them.
Has the Allopurinol helped? If not, it isn’t likely a uric acid precipitation problem.