In the entire original Star Wars trilogy, no two named female characters ever spoke to each other.

In fact there, were only four named women across the trilogy, throughout six and a half hours of content spread across multiple worlds, and for most people they can only name Leia.

I'm not bringing it up as a criticism; just an observation. Sometimes guys wonder why their girlfriends/wives don't love their favorite fiction quite as much as they do.

It's not to say a given story *should* have more characters of XYZ demographic, but basically if a guy tunes into a movie and no two guys ever speak to each other in it, and it's ladies everywhere with hardly any men around, you'd basically just get the vibe pretty quickly that this wasn't written with you in mind at all. If you like it, that's great, but it's kind of by accident since you just weren't really considered as part of it being put together. I do like Star Wars, for example.

I love the Breaking Bad show, too. The premise didn't appeal to me on the surface (middle-aged guy with cancer, young drug maker guy, and to the extent that there are women in the show it's mostly the wives of the important characters), but my husband told me it was great so I watched it with him and loved it. Wouldn't change a thing about it.

And then of course, since we can't have nice things, over the past decade the attempts to put more diversity into fantasy or science fiction have been pretty ham-fisted. Rey is a trash character, basically. Almost any attempt with this sort of stuff is lazy. Books have generally done it better because it comes from one author's mind rather than some committee.

I think part of why the TV show Arcane was so well-received (especially the first season) was that it had a ton of different characters in it but it wasn't *about* that diversity. It just happened naturally as a byproduct of good writing and care. A bunch of very different characters dealing with themes that are about technological progress vs safety, economic disparity and sovereignty, extremism to achieve goals, etc. Young and old, male and female, rich and poor, all different colors. Rather than feel forced, it just seems obvious in that setting.

I've put some thought into this when writing fiction. Men and women, and people of various cultures, do have a ton in common in the fiction they like. Probably more than most realize.

-My number one priority is to just write good stuff and tell the story I want to tell. By default there are a broad range of characters in a story like that, at least in my head. Otherwise it would feel boring. Unless I was writing a specific period piece (something like Saving Private Ryan set in WWII battle zones where obviously it would almost all be men), I'd have to go out of my way to write a story where no two men ever speak to each other, or no two women ever speak to each other. That would take effort.

-My second consideration is to of course think about my audience (which a lot of current media trends ironically don't do- they just create a piece to fulfill their own grievances and forget about the main demographic that would actually want to watch/read what they made). How would different people experience it? That's where beta readers are helpful, but also just a basic 101 test of imagining like five different people reading it and getting the vibe of whether it's written with them in mind, or not. The goal in that case is certainly not to write for everyone (eg most stories I think of tend to be quite dark and violent, and with substantial complexity, which is a combo that already excludes a lot of people), but to at least be aware of the types of people I might be writing for. The natural state of things in a sufficiently complex setting is a broad range of character types.

Basically when I exclude types of readers, I want it to be a conscious decision rather than "huh, I hadn't considered that."

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That’s a great observation… one recent series that I read was Red Rising… seemed to include most demographics without being forced.

Red rising & Golden Son were a ton of fun.

Crazy to think RR was written in 2 months above his parents garage. 🤯

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Thanks! Will check it out

Your review of Arcane is spot on

The broken clock, that is Hollywood, is right twice a day and they struck it right there

My brother is a writer but he caves from the media pressure of his editors and it turns his creative spawn into marshmallow garbage

Something about great writers too is, many wrote for themselves and to discover their own or the truth

So many were broke and/or broken hearted - Dostoevsky and Kafka but to name a few and they didn’t have such expectations and creative pigeon holes people must have now

It was only in later years that people realised how timeless their work was, so much produced nowadays is already forgot.

Anyways I help him edit and love doing that so if you ever want a free set of eyes, it would be my pleasure to read some of your stuff!

Peace

> Basically when I exclude types of readers, I want it to be a conscious decision rather than "huh, I hadn't considered that."

I think this is part of the attitude that produces poorly executed diversity.

If your idea is you want to make a good story (that speaks to universal or at least widely shared human values), probably you'll wind up with a better story than if your trying to track exactly what sort of people will like your story and pander to everyone.

Star Wars (specificall A New Hope) is about war, faith, adventure, and courage. Those are all things that human universally can relate to, albeit probably more so men than women. If it was mostly about social dynamics (even if the characters were men) probably a lot more women would be interested.

My understanding is that a lot of old gangster movies (a genre I never watched much) were family drama as much as crime, and this contributed to the appeal to women and the financial success of these films. But "family drama" is a human universal rather than a specific representation.

See also: young black men love Dragonball Z. The fact that the characters are Aryan Japs seems to be less important than the underlying human values of courage, resilience, and chivalry. Those values aren't very important in women's lives and so the show doesn't appeal to them as much (but this has little to do with the color or shape of the characters' genitals).

I think a major source of failure of female action heroes is that they don't show "action values" like courage and resilience. Instead they're often written to be unstoppable badasses, which removes the need for the virtues that an ordinary person might relate or aspire to.

> My number one priority is to just write good stuff and tell the story I want to tell.

As it should be, but "the story I want to tell" is obviously going to be a lot more likely to appeal to people whose values and priorities are much like your own.

I think there's a difference between accidental decisions, intentional decisions, and pandering to everyone.

-For example I don't think it was a particularly intentional decision to have so few women in original Star Wars. It seems to have just kind of happened, which was pretty common in that era. And having a few more probably would have been a net positive given the setting (unlike, say, Saving Private Ryan where it would make no sense and would just make it worse). And just using the few existing women with tiny roles a bit more like Mon Mothma (the literal leader of the rebel alliance with near-zero screen time) would make sense. In fact, as more content for the expanded universe was written, more women were included throughout it, because in that setting it naturally makes sense.

-In contrast, modern movies usually do one of two things. Either they try to be generic and appeal to everyone equally (bad decision) or they set out trying to exclude from the start (eg something written for everyone except specifically straight white men to preach about that as main plot which most people aren't too interested in) which is also a bad decision and usually lazily/poorly done.

When I refer to conscious exclusion, it's not really setting out with the goal in mind to exclude someone, nor is it intentionally trying to write to everyone. Instead, it's trying to be aware of decisions made. Like yes, it will exclude people who don't like complexity, violence, or bad language. And that's because eliminating those things would directly detract from the story that's being told, which is the audience it's for.

As an example, in one of my stories, a character refers to another character as a retard pretty early on. No beta readers personally had a problem with it, but about half of them specifically highlighted that it *could* be a problem for some readers. I'm aware of it, and consciously sticking with it. Because that's how that character thinks. She's a pretty mean person. She wouldn't change her language for others, and so as a writer I'm not going to change her language for others either. That'll likely get me a 1-star review somewhere on Amazon in this environment, but it is what it is.

Dragonball Z is an interesting case. A show written mainly for young Japanese men, but like most Japanese content it has a global following. As you pointed out, plenty of black men like it (along with plenty of non-Japanese men in general), though it has a pretty tiny female audience. Bulma was a main character for a while but gradually became less important as power levels creeped up. Android 18 was somewhat relevant for a period of time. Eventually there were so many characters but hardly any important women anywhere. That might have been part of why I gradually lost interest in it; I don't know. Just a few more would have been helpful, especially given that the characters all basically fight with magic anyway.

Dragonball Super eventually introduced several more women including super saiyans, probably to more consciously address that a bit, to my original point. That's a case of adding something without really detracting from anything, since it didn't really detract from Goku or anyone. It's like, a fighting-focused Dragonball plot is naturally going to appeal to more young men than young women, but there's some low-hanging fruit to pick of having a few prominent female characters to bring in the subset of potential women watchers that are into fighting-focused plots too, kind of like Naruto and Bleach did and as Dragonball Super did.

I'm not sure whether you've taken the core of my criticism or not.

If it was Lucy Skywalker (but otherwise the same) maybe women would find it compelling but really I doubt it. I think the character's behavior and values are more compelling than their physical characteristics. That was the point of my bringing up DBZ - young black men with a full head of hair can relate to Krillin. Another good example is Avatar - where a lot of people (especially granola-eaters) relate much more strongly to the blue alien cat-people than to the literal humans.

I'm (spoiler) a man, but I think the issue with women and these franchises is deeper than who checks what identity box.

I think the issue with Star Wars (probably also DBZ) is that's a coming-of-age story for a young warrior and most women are just drawn to that role much less than men are (for perfectly understandable evolutionary reasons). I would be curious to know the viewership of modern Star Wars (which seems to have women in much more prominent roles) and whether the audience is more female than the 1970s theater-goers.

Another way to ask the underlying question is whether romantic comedies with a male lead have a disproportionately male audience. I would be willing to bet the audience is mostly women.

This is likely (at least subconsciously) why I lean more toward Trekker than Warsian.

Lyn can analyze anything and I’ll listen/read

I can feel the difference between this character happens to be X "minority" but they are here in service of the story and we wrote this character in to be the representative of X "minority" and the story is in service of their tokenism.

I can't stand the second type of content in any medium. I honestly feel that it is an insult to people of that group to make absolute shit content just to force diversity.

2 great examples. Ghostbusters, but with women is super cringe. If women are just as funny as men why didn't those funny women make original content instead of ripping off something men already did? (I admit I didn't watch it) on the other side Firefly was woke AF by definition but isn't cringey at all. An interracial married couple just was and I can't recall it ever coming up. That is far more inclusive than a billboard of lights flashing "look we did an interracial couple, how special"

That said, if you run around complaining that content is woke, you are a bigot looking for an excuse. The problem is ham-fisted writing and the minority status of the poorly written characters doesn't matter any more than Zoe and Wash's skin color.

Firefly is a great example of how to pass the Bechdel test (which is what's being described here) without being "tryhard" about it: the opening scene that introduces 2 out of the 4 female characters they're literally talking to each other.

They were important enough to have things to say to each other but the writers had the restraint to not mention their gender.

Yeah Firefly is an example that just nails it, and rightfully earns a cult following.

This is How you Lose the Time War, which you have cited, is a great example of something that basically passes the Bechdel test without being "tryhard" about it. There are only two main characters, and they're both "female", albeit deeply posthuman to a point where gender means very little.

There are plenty of other examples where I (basic cishet white dude) have enjoyed "female-forward" science fiction... The recent "Agatha All Along" was, I thought, really good. That's an example where it's not just "let's swap the woman for the man", but telling a story that is really about women.

Interesting observation. However, my wife loves Star Wars franchise way more than I do! Except Andor - she finds Cassian retarded.

The Apple TV series "The Studio" has an episode (episode 7) that parodies Hollywood execs tying themselves in knots to try to have diverse casting that just ends up spiralling out of control and getting progressively more cringe.

On the note of females in Star Wars, I'm reminded of the 2015 SW Battlefront game in which Leia would periodically say "Help each other!", a line she never spoke in the films. With that line I imagine a room full of dude writers in a board room saying "okay, we have to give this girl character some lines. What would a girl say? Maybe something like 'help each other'?"

I think any character tho should be saying ā€œhelp each otherā€. I think this is a theme in Percy Jackson and the Olympians.

In clothing design for kids tho, ā€˜kindness’ is always used on girls’ clothing and not boys’.

Lyn, have you watched the first few episodes of Alien: Earth? They are exceptional in my opinion and you may find it worth a watch. It’s a good example of diversity without being on the nose, along with excellent writing.

this is a fun post to read. This needs to be zapped a lot, then Lyn or an assistant needs to send the zaps to poor people, or people who don’t have any of the bit.

why is Rey a trash character??????? I loved that character. It got me into Star Wars again.

Arcane is great for those reasons … but too violent… especially Season 2.

Rey has no heroes journey. She is super competent and perfect from the beginning. Boring.

#Spoileralert

Turns out …

Rey is the grandchild of creepy Sith Lord Palpatine.

She somehow inherited her grandfather’s power. She chooses to behave like the Jedi and not like the Sith. The Jedi protect the right of sentient beings to express themselves naturally and work to reduce unnecessary suffering. Sith Lord and his supporters use repression and direct physical violence to block people from being who they are. This is evil. It’s a clear choice for Rey because she saw in her mind how her grandfather ordered for his son and daughter-in-law, her parents, to be abducted and killed.

i prefer slice-of-life story structures. I prefer the life experience to be ~ 10% hero’s journey and 90% slice of life.

. . . maybe George Lucas *was* subliminally considering a (certain type of hetero) female viewership by sprinkling a handful of hot guys throughout the galaxies! Going with that perspective, it peaked with Hayden Christensen and Kylo Ren. Poe is the cute contrarian rebel, and Finn, hilarious puppy. No Asian-American guys tho. Simu Lu is on the Barbie set and Jimmy O. Yang is busy with stand-up.

If you want to make money, mayve you need to keep your audience in mind. If you want to make timeless art (ie Lord of the Rings - also devoid of women), what your audience wants should be the least of your concerns.

The way I look at it, whether writing fiction or nonfiction, it’s not about writing what the audience wants- it’s about successfully landing what’s in your head into the audience’s head.

That means understanding the audience. If there are inadvertent frictions between you and the audience, the work is less likely to spread the entertainment, ideas, themes, and so forth as the creator sees it.

This is obviously a very wide field where we can't make any generalisations, but I still that your point sounds a bit like "but how do we serve the mainstream" (and I think: we shouldn't) whereas my point is more like "how do we just be creative and artistic" (but I agree that not all works must meet that criteria, there is a gray zone in between).

I'm pretty sure Franz Kafka or Kurt Vonnegut didn't give a flying fuck about some potential audience, but people will be talking about their work for centuries.

Tolkien probably also didn't think (or even plan) that his work would become pop culture.

The Bible? Absolutely horrible and impenetrable in every possible way - but somehow it found an audience.

I guess, if a work defies all norms and surprises us, an audience that nobody could have predicted will somehow materialize.

Ironically I think this about bitcoin. I don’t think satoshi intended it to be more than a hobby project with some cool use cases for a fringe. Like ā€˜this is what a censorship resistant internet money might resemble.’ Not that it would actually have the sink thrown at it by regulators and BIS etc. I don’t know what the rest of my point was but here’s at least half

Did you like Lord of the Rings?

I am guessing not that much either because there are few female characters.

I think it is best to respect the author and let him write, or tell a story in film.

If you don’t like it. Easy. Don’t read it. Don’t watch it.

I didn’t like Emma.

I didn’t like Barbie.

Those movies were not for me, and where female oriented and that is fine.

No problem!

Freedom is best when it can create and reach their audience.

It’s okay to make movies for men

Not sure about the logic…

Dudes like to see movies about topics that excite them (drinking beer, shooting, etc.). For example, Kill Bill movies. Men like them even if the main character is a woman. Or lesbian porn. Men love it even if they cannot relate to the main characters or to the activities (pillow fights resulting into scissoring etc.).

And on the other hand, women like to see TV shows and movies about gay men who are talking about their feelings, obsessing about fashion, etc. You know – men doing all kind of girly stuff.

And, for example, nature documentaries. It’s not like they are trying to reach the animal demographic. Men like to see documentaries about lions, sharks, etc. And women like to see documentaries about beautiful birds, romantic penguins, etc.

Like Steve Jobs said ā€œYou need to tell people what they wantā€. No one said to him ā€œWhy don’t you invest an iPhone.ā€

I saw Star Wars in the theater as a kid, and it blew me away, as well as every other kid! Nothing had come close to that on the 70s. But the re-watching it as an adult, you pick up on so much more than you did as a kid. Like how Luke was a pansy little whiner. Within the last few years, I watched all of them, with my kids, and the only thing that made it bearable was watching HISHE after:

https://youtu.be/m6U6I9Jbkxs?si=xAsfA_zlV5WM_Mbx

Life saver!