To prevent ladies from being harassed, we need to optimize the way to mute accounts. Now the way to mute accounts is that I cannot see the reply posts and all the post information of the person I muted. But he can see all my posts, and can also forward and reply. We should increase some privacy, that is, if I mute the other party's account, the muted account will not be able to see all my dynamic information. In this way, the harassing account cannot continue to harass by replying, forwarding, liking, and zap. #[0]
Discussion
The cost to create an npub is trivial so what youāve described wonāt make much difference. Muting works but we can do better with WoT - though even that wonāt stop harassment completely.
Agree, the cost of creating an account is very low, but it also takes time. From creating to following the harassed user. It is a good way to protect privacy by making it impossible for muted accounts to see my content. Increasing the time cost of harassing accounts is also a good way to mute them.
How about encouraging the ladies to grow a pair and not be so thin-skinned?
Because the onslaught of pointless comments like this will never stop. Imma guess any āladyā who puts up with a thousand of these tiny daggers already has thicker skin than the trolls she wants to block. How about you drop a pair and try.
There is no "protection" from on-line adversaries male or female.
The only solution is to toughen up and ignore insults from idiots like you.
It should be both IMHO, clients and relay operator should try to do their best to help and make more effective a mute, but the thing about creating a new npub is the reason everyone, not just girls, has to be prepared for the infinity of morons out there, and the non-morons should unite to both give mental/moral support to any victime of any kind of abuse, and unite against morons perpetrators.. #plebchain
No, that breaks the principle "dumb relays, smart clients".
Running a relay must mean just running a relay and nothing more. That's the whole point of Nostr.
It's serverless. The moment you turn relays into servers you got censorship and algos back.
Good point.. yes.. more reflection needed. š¤š¼
Akshually ā¦ filters on relays is not only better for bandwidth and for ādumbā phones, but also opens the marketplace for end users to āsubscribeā to and share the best filters, across clients.
Freedom of choice is what makes Nostr censorship resistant, not rigid protocols or lack of algos.
nostr:note1q2a2stds7ndxe9h9xz82u20szgur0yyp2gmdkz853dvdvl66stqsgj6awd
"There are mean people on the internet, let me be a censor on Nostr!"
Because men and women are different? And a pretty important difference is precisely the fact that women donāt have āa pairā, to use your language.
That used to be the case, but with the advent of feminism I've seen plenty of women with bigger balls than most men I know.
Itās true that Feminism has had many negative consequences. The social acceptance of gender dysphoria is just one of many. However, wouldnāt your suggestion be the third wave feminist position? I only point that out since you seem to imply a criticism of feminism while also taking that opinion.
If we have multi-key support, which we should, it would be a matter of seconds to create a new identity. I donāt see how thatās much of a barrier to anything. This sort of mechanism only works on centralized platforms where thereās actual penalty for being blocked - having to go through verification again if you wish to continue harassing.
Nobody wants to see anyone harassed and it would be awesome if people didnāt have to experience it in the first place but I donāt think this is any kind of solution.
No, it's not secons, it's instant.
This is the solution:
And they know it. They just want to have their little quote of power to censor people, that's all.
I can literally write a script that makes a new npub for each comment I write.
Literally the cost is zero.
That's not possible.
My proposed solution is for relay-based filtering.
Agreed, we need to try to implement it in more ways.
You mean it is impossible to implement this function on the protocol, right?
Maybe it can be implemented locally on the client. We will try to implement this function on Freerse. I hope that more clients can implement this silent privacy function, which can better protect users who are harassed.
I think that's the wrong solution, to be honest, because it locks us into clients and feels like feature-overreach.
Making mutes REALLY persistent (down to the reactions, zaps, quotes, DMs, trendlists, etc.) would be enough for the client to focus on. That's already a lot of work.
There is no other choice. You must get locked to a client if you want to defend yourself from LE EVIL MALES.
Because the other option is to break Nostr.
Here, this is the solution to your problem:
is starting wot with women root and applying it to nostr.mom and giving the muted ones less quota for kind 1 a good solution?
You mean like the Coracle client does, but on relay?
what does Coracle do?
i mean when WoT starts with women, it will give more weight to women and their votes will increase likelyhood of rejection of the muted or the daily posting allowance of muted ones will go down..
I didn't know that mom has an allowance. How does that work?
nostr.mom relay has certain number of notes allowed per IP per day. Right now it rejects the "heavily" reported pubkeys. The sum of reports are compared to wot score of the reported pubkey and a decision is made to whether accept the note or not. If reports are higher the note is dropped, if the wot score of the person is higher than reports, note is accepted.
Currently the wot root for that algo is "general OG", not women.
Reports are different than mutes. I could do a similar thing for the muted. Or i could also apply a different daily allowance for the muted.
Would be a nice experiment.
Nostr is already broken, adding more processing logic to relays only makes things worse.
Where is it broken specifically?
1) configurable WOT -> good solution client side
2) If we view relays as a proxy for community with configuration for how exclusive the community maybe that will help concretize the possibilities for relay filtering.
its okay if they aren't an exact community, but framing it that way will help both relay operators and members of the community.
Considering that relays are generally wide open, or wide open after a payment. If good faith users of a relay see something they don't want to see, or goes against the community they want to cultivate they can post a report, or perhaps there is a community voting mechanism for anyone the operator thinks should have stake in the community.
Just to explicitly put it out there, a ban from a relay just means go no on someone else's door with your shit.
You can still say what you want, but not at our house because like it clean.
Why does everyone assume that women are so freaking fragile? The women in my family are at least mentally as strong as the men. Who are all these cowering women? Where are they?
This smells like an appeal to safety to let u censor ppl. Jus saying.
It's not that we're fragile. It's that we objectively get harassed a lot more than we harass others. Everyone needs to have the tools to be able to curate their own feeds and not have them spammed by people they've decided they don't want to engage with, whether male or female.
I don't think the approach that Moss is suggesting will work, but it's a conversation that needs to be had.
We can't stop someone from writing a note, but I'm glad the topic hasn't died.
I think the best solution is relay management and better filtering tools, including training my own spam filter. If I mute someone, I don't want to see their reactions, zaps, replies, DMs, trendlist entries, quotes....
Mutes need to be persistent. Mute them and forget them. They need to talk to a wall.
Local filters and federated note permissiins are the way... Heavy though.
She needs to write literally no more than 3 lines of code to have locally stored mutes.
This is a non-issue and a call for censorship. Disgraceful.
"Relay management" breaks the principle of "dumb relays, smart clients".
You're literally trying to destroy Nostr, either you realize or not.
All that can be implemented by the client, I think amethyst does a good job on that, effectively blocking any reply or interaction only at the relay level like fiatjaf said, but even that might not be very effective.
Fiatjaf is right. What Moss proposed is not possible without major changes to how nostr works, and they would not be backwards compatible.
WoT and sharing mute lists is going to be one of the few knobs we can turn. Private relays are going to be important as well, which is one of my only hangups with the outbox model - I want absolute governance of what relays I use.
It would be cool to see support for using different relays for different feeds. You could cut a lot of shit from happening if you could limit certain conversations to specific relays. If the relays support auth, you could use this for read as well and effectively have a private community.
Oh well. Dumb purple cat strikes again. To be ignored Iām sure.
Ur a good kitty
Women aren't so fragile, we just attract more trolls or npubs who can't take a hint.
Nostr is like real life. š
Government-like mindset.
Simple experiment. Ask the men in your family how many times and how often they get harassed and then ask the women.
This has nothing to do with fragility or being mentally strong.
Bro. I am in harassable. If u decide to get agitated and extra with methemn I'll make you regret it. Learned that from grandmother.
Bully smacked me up. I came home crying. She cleaned me up and sent me back to find him. She told me to go at him every time I saw him til he ran when he saw me coming.
Bullies run when u punch them in the nose. Generally cowards. So just clown them and verbally smack them around. Call frens to help. They want a soft target. They don't usually come back.
Or.... Cry and censor. Different strokes but somebody has to smack the bully. U r just outsourcing and centralizing the smack hand. I am willing to be the consequence of their bad behavior.
No judgment. Just observation.
Ok, so you have no empathy. No judgement. Just observation.
Is it possible that not all bullies run away? That bullies may bring along more bullies? Is it possible that sometimes a person cannot fight back?
This isnāt elementary school. Out in the real word people and groups can be outmatched. Asking for help isnāt a crime.
if i see a bully picking on you its my duty to help as it is yours to help me or any other member of the community so afflicted. This is not the schoolground. There are far less random 6 year old mindsets wandering about. However there are habitual line steppers who, if not sternly rebuked by the community members that encounter it, wreak havoc in a community. That is the purpose of community. so that no one stands alone or at the mercy of the bureaucracy.
That first note was about the topic at hand. this one is personal.
You began your reply with an ad hominem. You said I have no empathy or judgement. That is a terrible thing to say to someone. why do you feel the need to attack me? I wont be afraid or cower so no point but am curious. Why the attack. next . "This isnt elementary school" is a jab at my maturity level.
This is unnecessary and hostile behaviour. Be better.
It's interesting that this thread devolved into insults and sarcasm by the fella complaining about harassment. Odd behaviour. Unnecessary. Not how to build community. Community has each others back. Holler if you are being harassed. I really dont mind. Yes. even this rude fellow.
I think women of Nostr should try out Hen house for a more moderated experience https://henhouse.social/ it's a ditto instance. It not out yet but they can sign up.
If one can control if some else can post, it's not uncensorable. Find other ways.
Uncensorable is unnegotiable.
I agree about this.
I'd prefer something relay-side, like private relays. Or encryption.
Relay-side is censorship. š
Please stop trying to break Nostr.
No relay side pls gawd no
Not a normal relay. A small, walled garden.
Like, having one with a discussion board, and making it invite-only or paid, through AUTH and encryption, or something.
If you wanna put that relay in client then cool I'm in. But no centralized data powers. Pls
You are wrong. Relays are private property, they must be walled necessarily.
Respectfully, so is my data. Don't touch it. Don't care if you invented the system. Centralizing data authority undoes all your work. Censoring at choke points breaks the promise of freedom. But whatevs. I guess you will find out eventually.
I'll use it til u censor me and then will leave. Social media in this format only has a cpl years to run anyway. Am really tryingvto help you guys realize that you are rebuilding what you claim to hate.
I was in enterprise tech throughout 90s 2000s 20010s I have watched this happen repeatedly and for the same stated reasons. Safety.
But hey am jus cartoon frog. What do I know right?
Yes, you are just a cartoon frog.
But can you clarify your position? You think relays should all be free and open and accept anything that anyone publishes to them?
I think relays should be handling encrypted data only and not touch my data. I think that all content controls should be at client. I think that load management and scalability does not require you to look at my data. I think that once the power to censor is created it will be abused. I wish federated identity and notes had been a core design consideration.
None of it matters though. In the end centralizing is easier so that's what will happen.
No hate but I know when a party is winding down. This party promised freedom and is now announcing the curtailing of that freedom for safety and service provider convenience.
Sorry if tone off or typos. Am at beach. I am no ones enemy but I see great danger approaching in familiar garb.
Be well
You didn't answer my question.
Private property governed as described above. I answered the question. You know I did. You are better than playing word games. You could have politely said thank you and walked away or addressed the issues raised as an answer to question. You chose snark. Why?
You didn't respond to the points in my note jaf
Tottally agree Pepe. Nostr really should work more like (PgP) email, which was and still is an excellent decentralized communication tool. My local email client controls my spam, I set the terms, not my email provider. It works just fine, I don't want anyone else (eg google) to decide what is or is not for me to receive and read (gmail has been trying to break this system, so I won't use it, Nostr clients/relays must not follow the same path). Spam is a pain, but it does not need to be controlled centrally.
And this note see. Why are you straw manning me? I did not say those things.
What is the advantage of Nostr over Twitter? Nostr is a public forum, if it's relays are censored and controlled by unknown entities then it isn't really much different to a centralised platform like Twitter. More precisely it becomes another mastodon, with all its limitations.
You can run a relay.
i do. I run 3. again why do you feel the need to answer so ascerbically? no one here is your enemy and your communication style makes dialog difficult
So its more like mastodon. With all the same limitations. Since anyone can run a mastadon server also. And it seems that both Nostr and Mastadon will require you to do so if you don't want to be censored. I though Nostr was doing something different to mastodon in terms of censorship. I guess not.
Your client is your garden . it needs higher fences and a guard
I think I am watching nostr get purposely centralized specifically to censor for safety. They want to filter and censor at relay level. Not kidding. Some big names in this thread supporting it. I dunno if we gonna make it gang. Freedom short squeeze in progress.
You know, we could try a human, community based solution instead of automating away free will. Let's try this. Anyone being harassed just message me and I will come defend you. I am sure a few others will join. Just dont abuse the backup because you can get cussed out when its done too kek. Seriously though. Just post a note, send DMs whatever. Just holler loud and if im neaby (usually am) ill sit at the keyboard and lead your defence.
This goes away when people have a community to back them up. Now that I hear all this complaint I would be dishonoring myself if i didnt come stand for the harassed. if this is a community then that is my duty.
Can we just try maybe standing up for people??
I don't think it's a good idea to introduce the "block" tool (I don't even know if it's possible) but it's not libertarian to limit the reach of a third party... muting it seems sufficient to me