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MichaelJ
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Building the library of Alexandria
Replying to Avatar Jac

You are really tempting me to dig out my leather bound, Jesus text in red NIV Bible, but the point was to look at the dogma not from the perspective of a believer in the dogmatic box, but as a skeptic.

1. In no way are women portrayed in the Bible as equal. New and Old Testament, show me where god invited women to clergy.

2. So if man is free as god is free in his own image we can choose to abolish the influence of satan, or even to subdue the angel of darkness, but wow, that would be heaven on earth wouldn’t it? Joining the Jehovah Witness theology soon? You’ll still have to wait as that doesn’t happen in their book until after Jesus scoops up his cultists, sends those with unforgiven inequities to hell, and remanufactures the earth into heaven.

3. How in the world can the choices of a creation be disappointing to an omnipotent being? This would insinuate that god respects us, but frankly the guy can’t even bring himself to communicate with us directly. This doesn’t answer the question, why would an omnipotent being even allow Lucifer to exist? Even balanced good and evil theologies make no sense, the only higher power I can even start to believe exists from an intellectual standpoint is one that is pure evil. The tortured soul deity is the least plausible of all of them.

4. Ok, Jesus spends 30 years living in the flesh of man, or was it god? Anyway, 30 years and a crucifixion makes god sympathetic to the woes of a creation tortured generation after generation by Lucifer, a being the father allows to persist? Really? What kind of masochist believes that? Mock beat and kill him? Poor baby. I’ll do far worse if I ever get the chance, death won’t even be on the menu. Here, take the good news of the gospel and suffer some more. I, as god could fix all of it in a flash, but nah, Eve and Adam ate the apple so you’re all screwed until I decide it’s time to only torture a few of you, those who didn’t sufficiently kiss my ass, for eternity. No man, if you could choose to not suffer, or as an even more powerful analogy, prevent your children from suffering you would, but this god you believe in as god or Jesus is an asshole through and through. He watches suffering every day, has the power to stop it supposedly, and does nothing.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, I have no desire to disrupt or disturb your faith, but frankly if you step in the ring with me you have to expect a dialogue will ensue. Fair enough?

I appreciate the responses! You needn't worry about disturbing my faith, but I do appreciate some dialogue. It definitely seems to me that your understanding of the faith is incomplete, so I'll respond to your points and questions further and perhaps we can have further productive discussion, though I certainly don't claim to know all the answers.

1. Regarding women and men being equal, why is it that being clergy is the criterion for equality? That is a rather arbitrary measuring stick to choose.

2. Man is free today to choose God and reject Satan's influence, and if everyone did that, that would indeed bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on earth; I totally agree with that assessment. The thing is, even though we could choose God, we still don't, so here we are.

3. It doesn't follow logically that, just because God is omnipotent, He would have no reason to be saddened at the choices of the free beings He created. If He wants us to act freely, and we do stupid stuff despite all His help towards the good, well, just making us be good would override our freedom and kind of defeat the whole point. Evil exists because God respects our freedom (and that of the angels, too, they were created as free, rational beings).

4. As I said above, if God wills us to be free beings, then that means He allows us to choose evil, and, of course, evil will bring about suffering. God could eliminate suffering, but that would also eliminate freedom. We're all on Nostr, so I'd imagine we all agree that freedom is pretty high on the hierarchy of values. Is allowing freedom worth it if the possibility of evil is a consequence?

I guess a question is, if you were God, what would you do differently? You want human beings to be free, but they abuse that freedom by cutting themselves off from your friendship and doing all manner of unspeakable evil to each other. Sure, you can repair all that evil, but that undoes the whole work of creating free beings in your own image in the first place; coerced love is no love at all.

As I said before, the thing God does is He suffers with us. If you can't fix a problem, sometimes the next best thing is just solidarity. Maybe that's not satisfying to you right now, but I'd challenge you to come up with anything better.

I believe that God wills the salvation and eternal happiness of every person, but He's not going to force it on us. The thing is, though, if we reject God in favor of our own devices, we tend to drag ourselves down even to the point of creating Hell on earth, and human history is more than sufficient proof of that.

It seems that you're really mad at God, or at least of some caricature of God. You're approaching it as a skeptic, and I'm answering as best I can by trying to at least provide a more complete picture of what the Church really professes. I don't expect to change you're mind, but I do hope we can come away understanding each other's positions better, at least.

Oh this is one of my favorites! I haven't heard this recording before, though. The virtuosity is incredible.

Do you do self-examination to see how you might become a better person?

That's a pretty core part of my daily prayer.

Replying to Avatar Jac

Ok, let’s zoom way out for a moment. God is all knowing, all powerful and the creator of humanity and everything else. We are “children” of god, created in his image and he loves us. Adam gets lonely hanging with his Dad in the garden so god half asses a companion, meanwhile some angel named Lucifer is plotting against god, god knows it, and could stop it, but he thinks it might be fun to watch so he sits back and lets Eve make contrary mistakes which he then holds his children accountable for. Ever since, Lucifer prowls around making everyone suffer like a sadistic child molester in a kindergarten, while god sips margaritas on the shores of heaven. If, while you are suffering you kiss the contrived ring, Jesus, passionately enough, because god is too good to talk to any of us soiled creations now, as a result of his errant other creation, Lucifer, you might be admitted into the forever resort, heaven. Ridiculous mythology, and not even GOOD mythology. Meanwhile we have women pastors, transsexual pastors, homosexual pastors….none of which do I personally have any issue with whatsoever, but the holy book that they claim does not mince words about any of that being acceptable. It’s like a choose your own dogma and call it whatever you want circus. I was raised fundamentalist Christian. I had eight versions of the Bible and had read and cross referenced them by the time I was ten. My parents did not spare the rod, and died fearing god. I hope for their sake there is a heaven, because otherwise they lived miserable lives for no reason at all.

A few responses:

1. Why do you say God "half-assed" a companion for Adam in Eve? How is another being with whom Adam can create new life in love an afterthought? We look for companions like ourselves. In the Garden, Adam had no companions like to himself, so God creates for him another human being like himself, but also free and distinct. Eve could give Adam what no animal could give: the love of an equal.

2. Genesis makes it clear that man is created in God's image. What is God? God freely creates the world and populates it with creatures. So if man is created in God's image, then man must also be free to create and govern. Man participates in creation most fundamentally by creating children (new life) and bringing it forth into the world; and, unlike the animals, man can freely choose whether or not to mate and bring forth offspring. Likewise, Adam is put in the garden to cultivate it, with a command to "fill the earth and subdue it," so man is given authority to govern the created world. Thus, we have man, like an echo of God in miniature, able to freely create and govern.

3. Going back to point 1, we look for beings like ourselves to love. God created us as beings like Himself (as like as a creature can be to its Creator), and invites us to loving relationship with Him. That's why Adam's sin was so devastating: Adam was given authority over all the earth so that he could be a friend to God, and he rejected that friendship by breaking the trust God had given him. Yes, Lucifer was plotting against man from the beginning, but Adam was free to reject Lucifer's temptation and maintain his relationship with God just as much as he was free to listen to Lucifer and break that divine friendship. Ever since, Lucifer only has power over the earth because Adam, to whom the earth was given, abdicated that authority.

4. God doesn't just sit back "sipping margaritas on the shores of Heaven," nor does He stay aloof from us as if we are too soiled and broken to be worth His notice. That's the whole Good News of the Gospel. God literally becomes one of us in Jesus, subjecting Himself to the chaotic, broken creation left in the wake of Adam's abdication, and lets us mock, beat, and kill Him. God is clearly not hands-off, nor does Jesus sit back waiting for us to "kiss the contrived ring." He's right here in the muck suffering with us.

So yeah, life is pretty miserable, but God joins us in the misery and still tries to restore that friendship that Adam lost.

Perhaps your past experience with Christianity overemphasized God as Judge, but there's a lot more to it, that's the whole point of the Gospel.

Not trying to proselytize, just curious.

Can you go more into what that practice looks like for you? What do you do, and what are the effects?

I'm a big fan of the Hours. Morning and Evening or Night Prayer are core to my daily routine.

Well I'm curious then. What makes you content with mindfulness meditation? Why wouldn't you feel the need to invite God into that?

I've heard St. Francis de Sales' "Introduction to the Devout Life" is an excellent manual for getting started in the spiritual life.

I always find structure to be super helpful in maintaining a habit of prayer, so praying with the Psalms or reading meditations and letting that guide my prayer time is super helpful.

Do you have any go-to practices? There is so much Christian tradition around prayer, there's a method for everyone.

Which goes back to the point about mindfulness meditation. But some would say the meditation works fine, so why bring God into it?

I don't think it occurs to anyone, but when someone mentions it, a lightbulb goes off.

I've never seen any dramatically miraculous response to prayer. But there have been many times I was sure a prayer had been answered.

People who haven't experienced that, though, have a hard time grasping the concept. I think proper self-examination can help us to see the effects of grace, but it is a sense that has to be developed by practice.

So how to we encourage people we know to begin that practice?

Prayer is asking God for things we want, but it's also asking God to show us what we should want.

In retrospect I can often see how a situation or series of events unfolded in such a way as to give me an opportunity to develop virtue, or have an important conversation, or learn something, and I see that as an answer to prayer.

Prayer doesn't always do anything, though, nor should it. It's simply communicating with God, and the most important part of that is aligning ourselves with what He wants for us.