What’s your opinion on Bitcoiners who promote third parties custody like Wallet of Satoshi ?
Discussion
What’s the alternative to WOS?
Self custody !
Lightning transactions?
There are phoenix, breez, muun wallet (fake lighting wallet but you can receive via lighting without fees but send out will depend on the onchain fees)
I’m curious to learn how to avoid self custody wallet scams. Are there any? Can you paste your private key to the wrong place?
Forgive me if I am asking the wrong questions!!
ur good! no wrong questions! I'll let yegor answer.. he probably knows more
What do you mean paste a private key to the wrong place ?
It seems “third party custody” wallets is a term that can easily be given to a scam website, or a scammer can mock a website easily, with the intention of stealing private keys. Not sure that is a threat yet, but in time it could be as more migration from fiat occurs.
Here’s a great introduction to different custodial and non-custodial options, courtesy of nostr:npub18kpw3akvdsyk239lx0jgwksr74sq4nlha3r8u9g2rnrhztfpfhysy469c4
I love all of these wallets. But none of them have a lightning address because you have to have a web server.
not up to me to judge their actions 💜
seems a bit of a loaded question also
Is it right way to do?
there’s a place in the market for them absolutely and they play a huge part in onboarding people.
non-custodial wallets are a really good stop-gap for those coming into this ecosystem from the fiat world.
would people in an ideal world go from one extreme to another? absolutely. is it realistic? unfortunately not so.
serious arguments are to be made if the non-custodial wallet promoted and advertised has a seriously untrustworthy history and reputation.
Good for orange pilling when I only have a minute to do it
Why would you shill the wallet that controls your keys ?
Practical.
Fucked up ! Completely!
We don't have a non-custodial Lightning wallet that supports Lightning addresses for Zaps that is easy to use. We don't.
Sir ! I don’t care about zaps! You didn’t read my message properly !
It's 100x more impactful to onboard someone, and then see them get 50 zaps when you post it on social media. I did this for a girl who works at a place I get breakfast and coffee from a lot. She got over $100 in zaps from me simply posting the QR of her address on Nostr.
She was absolutely fucking stoked. She literally lit up when i came back in and what had been a 20 second introduction turned into a long conversation and she was *eager.*
This experience is WHY she got excited and cared. If I had set her up with Phoenix in 30 or so seconds, she'd have received my larger-than-normal tip, she would've remembered there was something with a key she was supposed to save (which she won't do), it would have sat there stagnant and untouched for weeks or a month and she'd have completely forgotten about it.
Risk matters, Experience matter. Order of operations matter.
If she hadn't had the excitement of receiving zaps from a ton of people she didn't know, she'd have never *cared* about self custody or Bitcoin at all.
It would be cool if #cashu mints could do zaps. I built a service that can give you a lnurl and nostr dm the cashu tokens for ln invoices paid to the ln address. But doesn't work for zaps as you need to set the description and that would wreck privacy to the mint.
Indeed! Especially using in nostr, there is no better option.
The majority on here aren’t noobs and know trade offs using wallet of Satoshi! I’m saying that we shouldn’t recommend this shut and being apologist because “it’s easier” !
I get what you’re saying. To stacking solutions such as WoS is far from ideal. Yet, me think using different wallets in different usecases is the middle ground in this argument. Like I said before, using WoS is practical for nostr.
If I’m missing any points, let me know. I consider myself relatively new in this world.
i don't have a problem telling people to use two wallets. i use several, all for different use cases. for example, use one for zaps, use a self custody node, and cold storage. all of these are part of people's bitcoin journey. onboard with zaps, then teach and educate when the time comes to move sats to their own wallets like Zeus, Mutiny, or Phoenix, where they're in control.
WoS is a great starting point. Most people I come across have very little to no knowledge of the tech of blockchain, Bitcoin and etc. So when I introduce them, I suggest something like WoS. It's easy for them and they are up and running within minutes.
Vast majority of people want something easy to use and is intuitive and something that just works with very little technical know how.
I see it as a starting point. From there, people start to ask questions and want to know more once they see how easy it is and witness the power of Bitcoin and the lighting network.
I have no problems with those wallets. I see them as "spending" devices and if one gets compromised it's like losing a wallet irl. 50 bucks in it and a debit card, no big deal.
Anything beyond this, not your key, not your burgers.
There are a whole range of solutions with different trade offs. No one answer fits all.
Salt of the earth!
You are the part of the problem !
Why? WOS is great way to break barrier of entry. I started with it (when I finally realized Bitcoin not shit coin), and now I’m running my own node, channels, and learning about liquidity swaps!
I orange pilled my son’s friend who loves it when I send random sats to WOS.
Just listen to BTC sessions and how he pilled a waitress with WOS. it was great!
We all have to start somewhere!
Study and know the difference between self custody and third party custody, then decide how much counterparts risk you are willing to take on.
Some third party apps make it easy for a newbie to jump into the space, participate, and cultivate an appreciation for the concept of Bitcoin. Then through education comes full self custody. What do you think?
It's important not to forget who our real enemy is here:
Central banking!
Central banking and the fiat money it creates are one of the most insidious, destructive and negative forces in the world.
Monetary self-sovereignty with bitcoin is awesome! We love the whole range of lightning wallets that are being developed, and the amazing cold storage systems we have now. We use them ourselves. But custodians will *always* be necessary and are useful for many - especially for small payments.
The fact that Bitcoin (and the Lightning Network) allows both self-sovereign users, businesses and custodial providers to interact directly on the same hard monetary protocol is an amazing thing: true financial freedom.
Breez is my first recommendation for a lightning wallet, but WoS's LNURL support makes it hard to ignore for newcomers. What I love about #bitcoin is the wide spectrum of custody that is possible with it. Wherever there's rug risk, there's one thing I know for sure: #bitcoin is FAFO technology.
When onboarding people, I usually recommend them. Using an Azteco gift card and use WOS or Phoenix to redeem Sats.
Dont @me
Custodial wallet is a bad recommendation. You can spend more time explaining a self custody!
I need to be quick and efficient when I onboard someone.
They can come back later and take some time to explain self-custody.
You don’t need to be quick when you try to onboard someone to bitcoin ! You can meet with the person few times having a beer or whatever and trying to explain +- and then onboard! Rushing in the custodial wallets is the stupid way to do that!
I hold them in Contempt. Contempt is the name of my city. When I’m holding them, I will whisper in their ear “how dare you”.
For lightning payments WOS #[2] may be the best from fees perspective
1.think of your lightning wallet as your “bill fold” you carry only a small amount of cash(cash for the weekend, or night out), rug pull won’t affect much.
2. Think of your “software” self-custody wallet as your checking account. (On chain held. )
3.think of your hardware/cold storage as your savings account.
You can do that with none custodial wallet !
sent 25600 sats to each wallet here is what arrived:
Noah ……………… -> 25600 (0.0%)
Wallet of satoshi -> 25,472 (0.5%)
Phoenix wallet …-> 22,600 (11.7%)
Breez …………….. -> 20,625 (19.4%)
I wrote to you before and you keep posting the numbers: Breez fees are dynamic. It's 2500 now for example, not 5000.
My point from the previous post is if you treat your lightning wallet like your billfold, a rug pull won’t matter the only thing that matters that dominates that decision is convenience and fees
And you’re talking to a guy who lost his shirt on Mt Gox
Self custody for amounts, that matter convenience for anything else
This red line will go up unless people will stop promoting custodial wallets no matter of what! Then eventually will be rugged ! 
Adding @bitcoinrocks Still thinking a lot about this image and what causes it.
The basic answer is this is cause by two things:
1. The success of #nostr
2. The #LNURL-pay protocol.
Because of the critical importance of LNURL in introducing people to Bitcoin I thing the more important focus should be I getting people comfortable:
1. Moving money from lighting to a self custody software wallet, ann vise-versa
2. Keeping large sums in a cold-storage hardware wallet.
#phoenix wallet claims to support it, but I could not find it, or figure it out.
No good comes from Forcing or shaming people away from wos. Teaching them the risks and mitigation strategies like pulling it off each time you reach $200 will both educate people, and push/increase adoption and utilization.
WoS is the first ladder for newbies.
Wrong !
Different people, different ways of receiving information. Not everyone is as smart as you.
No offense yegor, but I remember you used Wallet of Satoshi in the beginning. It was helpful to get started with nostr, and made everything much easier.
Most people don’t mind to risk getting rugged $10 in sats. Non-technical people have trouble using Alby and nwc, so expecting them to set up their own ln node just to experience nostr would cause so much unnecessary fiction.
Should anyone keep sats on an exchange? No. Should anyone keep their Bitcoin stack on WoS? Absolutely not. But a few dollars to have fun on nostr is okay, and then once they’re in the door, they begin to learn what Bitcoin is and the importance of self-custody.
I used it because I am not a noob ! And if I personally onboard someone I do it via onchain and with a hardware wallet if it’s comes to the lighting what I just faced at farmers market I went with the phoenix wallet for what I’m being blamed because wallet of Satoshi is better that’s what they say !
True self-custody of LN wallet is when running your own LN node, not everyone is technical enough to know how to run an LN node.
You haven’t done a proper research ! You can do it on your phone in none custodial way 😉
Which LN wallet?
Don’t be a lazy 😁
I like Phoenix with these new enhancements, but you are saying Phoenix is self-custody is wrong. Giving a seed phrase with zero balance in it doesn't make Phoenix a self-custody wallet automatically.
What are you talking about ? Phoenix doesn’t control your funds ! Once the channel is closed you can recover sats via 12 words
I think you don't know what a try self-custody is, doesn't Phoenix app show me the 12 words on my phone? so someone else knows about it right? how you trust who works for Phoenix wallet app?
Phoenix wallet?
where's the guide on running a LN node or do you need to just do it for me and if so where do i meet you?
I think they know what’s up. It’s so frictionless to get a no coiner up and running and exposed to bitcoin. If they decide to keep learning, they’ll figure out on their own that holding your whole stack on nostr:npub1hcwcj72tlyk7thtyc8nq763vwrq5p2avnyeyrrlwxrzuvdl7j3usj4h9rq isn’t a good idea. It’s a great starting point though. I’m no noob and I even use them.
I'm cool with it only for small, fast, & cheap transactions. I don't use it for anything else.
Meh, people are used to someone holding their money 😂 Once they get a better understanding of #bitcoin, they won’t trust anyone with it!
🤷♂️
Some believe the NSA created #bitcoin so if that were to be true we’d all be fucked. 😂
Trust is a beautiful exchange where you relinquish a part of yourself, gaining a piece in return, creating a bond that transcends individuality and fosters connection.
But don’t trust me.
“All my life all I wanted to do was be great
If the stakes are everything
You'll tell yourself anything you need to hear to survive
Everything I say is the truth and that's alie
And that's the motherfuckin' truth”
- Dave Chappelle
🤙🏼💜📎
I suspect it’s likely that several people from the intelligence world did create it. Particularly because of the literal translation of Satoshi Nakamoto.
The truth is, it doesn’t matter. The intel world created Tor as well.
Do you suppose the US and SEC yada yada yada are playing stupid?
I mean i have no idea 🤷
But the elegance of the design.. is kind of Bill Binney-ish. Or someone from that world. And the Op Sec required to leave no trace…I lean toward no one actually knowing.
Which if true, is one of the coolest stories ever.
A fun idea is the reason “he” freaked out and left the project when it was used to help wikileaks, and the reason the original wallets have never been claimed is because it was a personal off the books project, and they never want the Intel world finding out who did it.
🤔
Your first sentence is an oxymoron
Nothing non-custodial offers a lightning address... and the address makes it sort of custodial anyway when provided as a service since it can be man-in-the-middled.
Small amounts are a small risk. The amount of value matters.
When I onboard someone to WoS, I always explain its custodial, and numerous I've gone back to have since withdrawn when it becomes meaningful amounts. But I can post the lightning address and they get sent $100+ in tips. I cannot do that without the address.
Someone like Guy or anyone else who is more than familiar with the risk, it is a great way to onboard.
middlemen are not necessary. they are sometimes convenient.
all lightning wallets are hot wallets
just because you switched to something like Phoenix doesn't mean you should be storing your savings on there.
How do you deal with zaps?
Do you really expect people to go through this setup off rip?
they can set up via nostr:npub1mutnyacc9uc4t5mmxvpprwsauj5p2qxq95v4a9j0jxl8wnkfvuyque23vg soon will be on phoenix and blixt
I mean, I wish those were options already but they're not.
I promote PHX hand in hand with WoS.