Legitimately feeling bullish with the Bitcoin+Nostr+SimpleX combo.
3 of the things I use the most for comms and commerce actually work.
These freedom alternatives are actually better than the centralized/pwnd competitors.
Signal need of phone numbers always rubbed me the wrong way. They never fixed that, must be malicious.
Twitter still king, but Nostr works, it's very yonge but growing.
Fuck fiat. Bitcoin is the Barbarian at the gates.
Signal’s phone number thing is the weirdest model I’ve seen. It’s the kind of thing you’d expect from Facebook.
I really want to see a mac desktop app for SimpleX; I hope someone else builds it but it’s on my list
Ah, damn, I’m going to put a bounty for it! 🤯
Nobody has answered how the one device limitation is going to be fixed.
Like Signal does. At least that’s the model I have in mind.
It’s actually the exact same model that nsecBunker does. Hell, you could even have your SimpleX key *in* nsecBunker
What’s the problem with limiting to one device? Are you saying you can’t transfer conversations to a new phone?
I talked to SimpleX devs last month about a desktop client:
“yes, in active development, the release of the first test version is imminent”
Their Twitter account said desktop version to be released potentially as early as next week.
SimpleX needs group chats so I can have my whole family on a chat and not rely on the alternatives. I have faith it will get there.🤞
Already has group chat
What?! Really??
How do I get SimpleX?
Download here https://simplex.chat
I have loaded it but - but I’m a tech retard!
Will get there.
I’m Gen X nomad - I just want to live large with my kids - watch them have fulfilled real lives!
#Pow
This is the real key !
#bitcoin 🧡 #nostr💜
Ok I clearly missed that or I'm not as tech savvy as I thought 😂 Thanks for this. I'll go figure it out 🫂🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Tbh, can’t understand this position (which a lot of people stick too though)
- i want as secure chat as possible for family/friends communications
- i don’t want to find a developer who I pay $2000 max and $10 month for
hosting to implement secure chat hosted on your personal hardware + software (which will do the thing but of course miss some top-notch UX patterns)
- so I will wait until people come up with a super-duper difficult, untested, not mature but mainstream alternative to this problem and use it for free
Technologies are already there to solve this problem pretty cheap of one really want to solve it and not get on the hype train
I don't really understand what you're saying here. I simply don't want 8 different chat apps. If I can get my family/friends to move to something I believe in, then I might be able to delete five or so messaging apps. 🤷♀️
I'm where I'm at, learning as I go. 🫶
Everyone at the last bitcoin meetup I went to was messing around with SimpleX, it’s slick.
Good take generally but don't agree on the signal point. I very much doubt it's malicious, I think it's a trade off they've consciously made.
Getting family onto signal was easier than it would be to get them on simplex
There is absolutely no reason to force phone numbers, they could add the option of username/email. Except for surveillance of KYCed numbers for social graph building.
Moxie's shitcoin in spring'21 was a good indicator the project follows no proper human values.
That's kinda fair, forgot that even existed if I'm honest.
they don't need to be malicious to collect too much useful metadata, just because these are the limitations of their protocol
Exciting news! Hope I get invited to this chat group 😂
Where's the best place to start learning about Simplex? I must complete the trifecta!
Thanks!!
This might help too if you want to delve deeper
Is there room in nostr for people who aren't on board with bitcoin? A lot of people will be turned off by anything that seems "crypto" related, even though in nostr it's theoretically optional.
I would think it should be possible. People create clients that don't implement the nips that deal with crypto and have people create and evangelize relays that have a no-crypto policy. In the long term, if Bitcoin can shed its "stocks-like" image and become more utilitarian through adoption as a form of payment by businesses, we can eventually win people over.
I’m not into crypto at all.
Bermuda-Triangle
I've been really liking Obtainium a lot lately as well to help me update all these open-source apps without relying on a third-party app store. Everything is coming together!
thank god for TCP/IP basically
What’s simpleX?
Visit simplex.chat
It's the super secure and store private messaging app that's basically identiyless and requires no phone number or email or random string... no nothing...
*super private
#FuckTypo #FuckMyEyes 🤐
Good comparison of TG vs Simplex
The thread before it is also
Interesting but more about TG than Simplex
nostr:note1uwhe2ymvuamfpj94ud3xhul6egn6qrq3d3j64ycm7h4zpnqca7aqhmqktt
Nostr has opened up a whole world of possibilities for how I can share my adventures at my homestead, what I'm learning, and my products not to mention how I can get the same from others. It feels like it's helping to unify Bitcoiners in a way that wasn't there with Twitter.
Totally agreed with you, Rodolfo! 🤙
What is SimpleX ?
Que es Simplex?
What is SimpleX what have I missed?
One of the most anonymous and private messenger apps available atm.
I honestly am torn a bit about wanting a whole lot more adoption. I come from having met my husband online when "online" hadn't even been coined as term.
I remember the early days of the internet. I remember being able to communicate, find things, transact with each other easier...slower, but easier.
There was a whole lot less saturation & a sh*t load more true and meaningful SIGNAL!!!
I want people to understand the freedoms of a decentralized means of communication, don't get me wrong...
But if adoption ever becomes just as what the internet is TODAY... if the early internet would have been like the internet is today, I wouldn't have met my husband, had children nor have a granddaughter now.
Saturation is the downfall for a lot of things. "Democracy" included.
Try selling something on etsy now, or buying something on Ebay...
It is soooo crazy out there.
((This gloom & doom, brought to you by... sorry, I just feel a wee low today. I am recovering, so please bear with my "opinions of the day." Please, & thank you.))
I think people forget that Signal’s model prioritizes security and privacy but not necessarily anonymity. Signal began as TextSecure, an E2EE SMS application, so phone numbers were originally a core part of its functionality. Apart from that, phone numbers are superior for contact discovery, and that’s primarily how Signal garnered such a large userbase. I suspect phone numbers are how they keep bots to a minimum as well.
Do I think Signal should still ditch the phone number requirement? Yes. I’ve been waiting for it, actually. But they’ve probably been working on a way of doing it that doesn’t significantly alter their current landscape.
Also, what is Twitter still king of at this point? Dysfunction, division, and data exploitation?
what is simpleX?
Is it secure enough to share 24 words private key over internet 🤔 ?
Impossible question to answer. No device/software is really though depending on your security model. That is why it is called a cold wallet
Regardless of the messenger you use: i recommend to never ever type a seed into any online-device.
Well, that was a troll, sorry. It was just to underline that any solution that is not offline has some sort of attack surface. But yeah, I checked the solution and it look pretty nice. I’ll probably use it in case of need
My X was very Simple.
Is there a desktop implementation?
I did an interview with Evgeny founder at SimpleX if anyone is interested. We got into quite a bit of Nostr talk as well as discussing. How SimpleX works and why it's a superior option to other privacy focussed chat tools https://fountain.fm/episode/ihaoGdHX1zpwmIdH3ONu
Love that it is listed in FDroid repository.
and to add - #Start9 Embassy has a #SimpleX Server app - it was pretty easy to set up. very cool to be able to setup a sovereign communication app without using someone else's centralized server and without revealing any personal information (#,email,etc).
I generally oppose services requiring phone numbers, just to fuck us over.
When will plebs understand its NOT for security, but to get data from you easier & not allowing you to have more than a single verified account?
It's so easy to social engineer your way into getting someone's phone number & then getting access to all important centralised shit services, like Google, Amazon & Microsoft products registered by the victim, who lost his phone number through a social engineering attack.
There are tons of people who lost so much, due to this.
If services actually want security, they need to implement hardware key, TOTP & GPG support. This would be implemented by those monopolies, instead of the requirement for phone numbers, if they actually gave a damn about your account security.
I generally oppose services requiring phone numbers, just to fuck us over.
When will plebs understand its NOT for security, but to get data from you easier & not allowing you to have more than a single verified account?
It's so easy to social engineer your way into getting someone's phone number & then getting access to all important centralised shit services, like Google, Amazon & Microsoft products registered by the victim, who lost his phone number through a social engineering attack.
There are tons of people who lost so much, due to this.
If services actually want security, they need to implement hardware key, TOTP & GPG support. This would be implemented by those monopolies, instead of the requirement for phone numbers, if they actually gave a damn about your account security.
Agree. SimpleX is superior.
What is your opinion on using Signal with a burner number and setting a pin for that number on Signal? Cope or pretty secure?
I would stay away from all services requiring a phone number, because this system is already broken & it won't come back. There are also luckily plenty of alternatives to Instant Messengers, which require phone numbers, like Signal.
For example, you say "burner number", so you might hail from the USA or some other country with similar laws.
If you are in the EU, you are screwed.
There are no burner numbers.
The only way to get a "burner" number is to get someone else to register the number. However, even then you're screwed, because the number will deactivate once you stop wasting money on that phone number. So, once you pay cash into the number, they already can track who's the actual user of the phone number now.
Or if you let someone else cash in, they can ask at least two people to expose you. First, the number seller, second the one who cashed in.
Therefore, numbers in the EU for example are already entirely broken & unfixable, because no government will make them less controllable & more free, ever.
Which is why using a burner number is not an international option, if you don't want to exclude a big part of an entire continent.
Yes, I agree the phone number requirement is not ideal, and there are better alternatives like SimpleX that are technically superior. But say your friends and family all use Signal: As a hypothetical, what would be the best way to go about using Signal for them?
"There are no burner numbers."
I just provided a few links above to grab a temp phone number to use to verify Signal, almost no account info required, using a fake email, and you can pay with coinjoined Bitcoin or Monero. Anyone in the world can use it. If done correctly behind tor, or at least a good VPN, it seems like it would be pretty anonymous. And once you set a Signal pin for that phone number no one should be able to use that phone number again to register on Signal. In theory at least.
So, the way I understand it, Signal is very private cryptographically, just not anonymous because of the phone number requirement. But they seem to help obfuscate who is messaging who using another cryptographic technique they call "sealed sender" to break up the connection graph. But this is just my understanding I don't know if it is correct and am not an expert on this stuff. That's why I asked if you or anyone else could give me some insight.
Temporary phone number means, that you have no ownership of it & it is inherently insecure. Having a phone number is already bad enough, but not having & using a temporary one is really bad. Every following Code/PIN will be sent to a phone number literally anyone could use at that moment. So, if there's account recovery via phone number possible, which most services definitely offer, you basically offer anyone the possibility to steal your account with potentially compromising data.
To me, temporary phone numbers are absolutely useless, except you need a throwaway phone number for a lottery or some other bullshit you'll never use anyway. For a private(!) messenger I would never use a phone number. Let alone a temporary one, anyone can have access to, at some point.
I'm not talking about a 2FA sent over SMS or a pin sent over SMS.
This is the pin/password you set when you first register a phone number to Signal and have to remember it. The pin doesn't recover any chat history or contacts on Signal either. All it does is prevent someone from registering that phone number on Signal again.
So ownership of the phone number doesn't matter, because if they try registering it with Signal again they won't be able to without the pin/password that was set. And even in the extremely unlikely chance they get your pin/password somehow, it won't contain any chat history or contacts.
https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007059792-Signal-PIN
Okay, I see now. Then it's not as bad as I expected. My examples certainly apply to mainstream services, like WhatsApp.
That said, my argumentation regarding numberless alternatives still remains standing. :)
Second thing is, why use a service with a phone number, if you have so many easier alternatives available?
You talk about VPNs, Tor, Bitcoin, etc... Why make life so hard?
There are so many instant messengers, which don't require shit.
For example, XMPP is dead easy to set up. Have already set it up for several people with no technical knowledge at all (you can be lucky, if they find the on/off button on a device) & it works without any hassle.
Now, enable OMEMO & you get free encryption without any effort. You usually don't even need to press a button, because it's usually enabled by default.
There are tons of XMPP servers, which don't care about your account, at all. & even in some weird scenario, where they do, you can switch accounts within minutes, by just choosing an alternative server.
Simple & way less difficult & time-consuming than your Signal journey over three oceans. :P
Yes, I think you're right about everything you say.
But if you can't convince the people you talk with to switch over it is kind of moot. That is why I was trying to figure out the most practical way of going about using Signal for this scenaro. What is the point of gettig SimpleX if you have no one to use it with (I still use SimpleX where I can for any communities on there)
But again I agree 100% with everything you say.
...and Signal is much more preferable than something like Facebook messenger, Snapchat, or plain SMS. Maybe I can convince them to get on SimpleX over time.
Speaking of SimpleX, in my life this app was a total failure.
I convinced someone getting an alternative to WhatsApp, so we could talk to each other, since I don't support WhatsApp.
What's happened is, that the person installed SimpleX & uninstalled it within 24 hours, because it drained tons of battery compared to how the person was used to battery drain.
Basically, I lost one opportunity, because SimpleX was no sufficient alternative.
I think I even reported the issue & then realised, this was a huge problem, which was going on for a long while & they still hadn't fixed it by then.
So, again, not sure why SimpleX is so hyped. In my experience it sucked ass. Do people actually use it outside, without constantly charging the phone? :D
I think this is a tradeoff to not using any centralized service for notifications. I feel you though. I remember Matrix Element battery drain was so terrible I uninstalled it too.
Not sure when it was that you used SimpleX, but there have been many improvements. They have three options for notifications with varying battery drain:
-No notifications: no battery drain
-Periodic notifications: some battery drain (every ten minutes)
-Instant notifications: substantial battery drain
I'm content with periodic notifications, but understand why that wouldn't be enough for some.
Pretty long while ago, considering how new this app is. At least a few months back.
Since then, I Force Stopped it & didn't turn it on, again. :D
I don't know about these notification options. Will check that out, thanks. ;)
Convincing someone is an art.
A pretty long while ago, I decided one day to leave WhatsApp.
I told people, I'm just going to use an alternative for now & no WhatsApp, anymore.
All my real family, friends etc. came with me, because they wanted to stay in touch with me. :)
Others, who simply didn't wanna switch were people after all, who I could easily drop, since they apparently weren't that important. :)
So, the remainders stayed on WhatsApp & haven't used it since then. Lost the account access & cannot retrieve it, since it requires a phone number, while my requirement are local backups, which means WhatsApp is doing too bad of a job, fulfilling my requirements. :D
My point is, if you really wanna convince someone, you can't just tell them to do something with your words. Sometimes, you have hard shells to crack, which means you need to do something relatively drastic about it. :)
@npub1tr4dstaptd2sp98h7hlysp8qle6mw7wmauhfkgz3rmxdd8ndprusnw2ygh has a great podcast episode about simplex. I've been using it since. IMO, it's almost feature complete compared with signal. Only thing I'm missing are stickers and in-app emojis.
Almost, Add drivechain and you have a winner
All you n00bs were in school or something when RedPhone dropped in 2012-13. It was a huge innovation for solving Sybil attacks on IM systems.
And then a couple of years later sim cloning became easy as the cryptography is (still) circa 1996.
Solving this problem is one of the many use cases we see for Indranet. Based on Schnorr and ECDH. Self sovereign keys, and p2p metered relay service, cost of attack is linear with the targets.
I'm reading 'The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.'
Every passage confirms that we are the barbarians at the gates of a declining empire.
In my world, most have no clue about bitcoin, nobody knows about NOSTR let alone SimpleX. To try to get people to download another app will be like pulling teeth. I’ve built a start9 server, running a node and iris relay but other than my Nostr peeps here its crickets. Even i dont understand half of this stuff.
It is a powerful triad!
^^ Would be nice if SimpleX made a rebrand & name change though.
Tbh, all those hating on Signal because of phone number registration are just identifying themselves as dumb and easily influenced. There is no mathematical / technical link between the phone number, contacts and messages. At least show us what the link is rather than second guessing how it could possibly be.
I agree it would be nice to remove phone number requirements but not for any of the conspiracy theories here.
