Nostr Web Client

I use Nostr on five operating systems and approximately five to six clients. This is not about me. Amethyst, being a flagship Android client, is widely used by most Android users, and its impact on the entire network is significant.

While this may not be a deal breaker for most casual users, they should be made aware of what is happening.

oldkeyprince 2y ago

💯

Ryu Santiago 2y ago

It's easier to just drop Amethyst as a client until Vitor stops being a faggot and actually listens to the people using his garbage.

I don't buy his "Section 230/laws and regulations" excuse.

Enki 2y ago

Yeah im personally really over it. My feed is actualy better not on amethyst and the "clunkyness" of other apps is starting to bug me less and less. I can seen the 2 art bots I follow plus a few people I never see. Havent quite uninstalled amethyst yet but its getting close.

bare minimum i'd appreciate it if we could turn it off as users.

StackSats.IO 2y ago

This true #[2]?

Why are reports set this way when it would be incredibly easy to abuse and have users censored?

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

He is exaggerating for sure. Reported messages by the people you follow show up with a warning and "Show Anyway" button. They don't disappear.

So, users always know when this feature is active for given posts.

im more often seeing replies to my posts (it says 1 under the reaction logo) but cant see the reply, is that something different then what Iefan is saying here?

Exaggeration" In your opinion, I respect that, but I consider this to be hardcore censorship because it dramatically reduces a person's reach.

Btw do you know why this particular person is censored? It's because she were promoting about some other cryptocurrency.

People who reported her didn't even know they were censoring her for all their followers.

Shawn 2y ago

As one of them, I did no such thing. I signaled, that’s all. How those signals are used is the issue. This was originally intended for use by relays.

https://listr.lol/a/naddr1qqvyzmt9w358jum5ypfksctydamkyctwypfx2ctvd5pzp89qh469qapddgsrr8qw84xx08y7q34fm3cw3m64c2g9ufq9ydqtqvzqqqr4xq6k457s

I mean, nostr:npub1gcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqlfnj5z this is a perfect example. He don't even know, and his reports are unintentionally censoring people on some other client.

I think it's a priority issue, you don't care about censorship but for us that's the only reason we are here. I think I get it, you are not wrong, you just have different priorities.

Btw, Making it optional, is it really too much to ask?

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

I consider this to be simple game theory. You now know who reported her. You can talk to them to delete the report. Or you can simply unfollow them. Either way, you are seeing this happening in your account. It's not hidden.

Reports have consequences as well. That's the only way we can make this system work.

Crizzo 2y ago

How do we delete a report? I can't find anywhere in Amethyst that I can view and edit my own reports.

captain ☦️ 2y ago

Who was reported here?

Ferret 2y ago

Ferret 2y ago

#[6] is highly muted. It’s affected her experience

That’s true, and this “feature” (that’s frequently abused to censor ppl) makes zero sense since spammers just make a million accounts anyway. It doesn’t stop spam at all.

Leo Wandersleb 2y ago

A tempest in a teapot?

If the user still can see the spam and porn, where's the problem?

Mike Dilger ☑️ 2y ago

Try other clients.

I'm the author of gossip, a desktop client, and I've been pushing for personal relays (NIP-65) where you can run your own and people who want to follow you will find it in your kind-10002 relay list and then pull your events from it -- this works with gossip and coracle today (at least). IMHO this is the only scalable long-term solution to the problem you're bringing up.

Gossip is amazing on desktop btw. A power user’s dream. I feel very in control of my feed when using it.

Gossip gives me the most authentic Nostr vibes. I love it!

I use Nostr on five operating systems and approximately five to six clients including gossip. This is not about me.

Amethyst, being a flagship Android client, is widely used by most Android users, and its impact on the entire network is significant.

While this may not be a deal breaker for most casual users, they should be made aware of what is happening.

I sincerely believe this is easy to fix, just making this feature optional is enough imo.

Mike Dilger ☑️ 2y ago

I understand where you are coming from.

I'm personally, actually, deep deep within, a dick. If the world is all running over a cliff to their deaths, I don't warn them, I just let them all fall to their deaths. But I see you are a good guy.

nostr:nevent1qqsr30psxrlq9he7gk837ey65te3svfeug7fyvszg3g8yg9fhtcesgspz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qcmmswlckn82se7f2jeftl6ll4szlc6zzh8hrjyyfm9vm3t2afr7sxpqqqqqqzmewsd4

It means a lot.

𝖋𝖎𝖆𝖙𝖉𝖊𝖓𝖎𝖊𝖗 (¯`◕‿◕´¯) 2y ago

Why does a report ban them from your followers? Is this just on Amethyst?

BITwise 🐳 >>= RIGHTish 2y ago

This is important 🚨🚨🚨

paulo 2y ago

Do you know how Damus deals with this?

Reports are ignored.

nostr:note1e6wz5hury8c5cuxzlj40jxhuzwqf2g8azvetraegyzqcmm52ld9qfralup

This is how it should be. Reports have been used to censor speech on traditional social media platforms for a long time.

In fact, here it is even worse, as all reports are given the same value regardless of whether they are for legitimate reasons.

I mean think about it, I can just report you for literally no reason and it will have a same impact. I have 3 large accounts I just need 2 more I can literally censor you for most of the nostr Amethyst users.

It doesn't make any sense or maybe I am just overreacting 🤷‍♂️

I don’t see it as an overreaction. Censorship free is a main selling point. Sounds like amethyst isn’t living up to that.

paulo 2y ago

No, I don’t think you’re overreaching. This is concerning for Amethyst users.

BitBees 2y ago

I must be dense as a fence post but I didn’t even know there was a REPORT option. I have muted some porn accounts because I am an old prude, but I don’t want to choose that path for any other accounts. Thank you for the red alert. This could be a saboteur for sure!

Been there forever. But what nobody knows is who gets them? Relay admins? Nobody has given me an answer

BitBees 2y ago

I am still a little uncertain of whether I should add a relay or not. For instance, do I add Alby as a relay if I am using Alby Wallet? Or is this a ridiculous question?

BITwise 🐳 >>= RIGHTish 2y ago

This is a huge attack vector. Simple malicious scenario:

Someone wants to censor you. They go and continuously create accounts. "OH hey new nostrich got purple pulled give them a follow!"

Once someone follows five of your "trojan" accounts. Boom, you're censored.

This ain't right and is antithesis to what this protocol stands for IMO.

The Marie ⚡️🦂 2y ago

#[2]

7fqx 2y ago

🙏Glad this is such a clear and concise post made by someone with a large following. I've been banging on about this for a bit too, along with other people before me. (However I'm a silly goose so no one cares what I say lol). It amazes me that the #amethyst #shadowban isn't known to everyone by now. It also amazes me when people respond with oh just buy an iPhone / use a different client / make a pull request etc. The ramifications of this are too big for that. I know I've also said this before but I would like to see an open discussion of this at #nostrasia out in the open. The reasoning and motivations behind this unpopular feature, which seems to be antithetical to nostr or at least the purported idea of nostr, has never been made clear as far as I know.

DefiantDandelion 2y ago

I was told I was somewhat impacted by this. I don’t use amethyst so I can’t really say. My theory for why is because one day I was posting in my client and the post button wasn’t. My post wouldn’t send. So I did what you do. I mashed the post button a half dozen times. And then my client posted the same content in quick succession. I presume it annoyed someone and they reported me for spamming would be my guess. I don’t know if I am “censored” but the feedback I got was that the person was a little wary of following me. Pretty lame experience for people if we are trying to increase users to Nostr. 🤷 just wanted to give some context to the problem of false positives.

Interesting but not unexpected. This feature will be abused.

By the way, it affects everyone. If any five users from my following list report you, all your posts will be hidden not only for me but also for all the people who are following those five accounts. 🤯

*Hidden for amethyst user

Solution is don’t use amethyst?

My goal was to spread awareness so users can make informed decision.

Thanks. It is useful info. Amethyst users might want to choose another app.

What apps don't do this?

I don't hate Amethyst, but this particular immutable feature is a deal breaker for me. No one should have the right to decide what I can see and listen to or atleast it should be optional

I mean, take your example, you already have 3 reports, if you receive two more reports from users I follow, Amethyst will automatically start hiding all your posts from me. Every time I want to see your posts, I'll have to press the "see anyways" button.

i personally dont think this is a major problem, besides that you cannot turn it off for yourself.

i do think that it is a significant problem wrt accounts you do not follow yet(!) and hypothetically are being mob-report attacked

Jimmy 2y ago

You can turn it off, you follow the user directly.

OriginalSize 2y ago

I believe this will become configurable as long as people come forth with code.

It's too early to bank on or write off any options in Nostr.

tina 2y ago

👀

Your posts are still muted for me even though I follow you btw, so this issue is even worse on Damus apparently.

Hmm actually you were muted but I don’t remember muting you… weird.

Wow, your every post is censored, someone told me only bots were getting censored. Following you, fuck censorship.

It’s because I question some of the bitcoin dogma, and some of the large follower accounts here have reported me for it (???) so if that happens, you’re basically completely censored on nostr.

I am truly sorry, my friend. Nostr wasn't intended to be like that. It was supposed to be free and for everyone.

Clients need a rating system

@nostr:nevent1qqsddr5ym532q2twqgzsdkc8a8nqr0nr5xgpwrd4xuwqy6jxq6tna8qpremhxue69uhkummnw3ez6ur4vgh8wetvd3hhyer9wghxuet59upzp3hhqal3dxw4pnuj49jjhl4lltq9l35y9w0w8yggnk2ehzk46j8aqvzqqqqqqy5tvzvv

Try this:

First, just Curious that why it should not be censored? If it’s quite private then as adults should be more cautious about what to share on public platforms. If contents are harmful to society, people or security at large, then it’s more than necessary to be censored.

Secondly, by your opinion, what’s the definition of open source? And the existence and necessity of security censorship? How to protect people from bad things or people if the alerting level of Malfunctions is too low?

Thirdly, I agree with you about suggesting users to use each feature cautiously for the sake of user’s experience and devs hardworking efforts, through elaborated instructions that users can access easily.

Colby Serpa 2y ago

This doesn’t scale considering I follow tons of strangers. I think algorithms that funnel content on the client-side is a better approach than relying on relays or followers to prune content for you.

captain ☦️ 2y ago

There's no reason to follow tons of strangers. Use lists for that.

Colby Serpa 2y ago

True, there are no lists on Damus yet though. This feature on Amethyst should be optional though, and perhaps let users create a list it pulls from instead of always using everyone you follow.

Andrej designSats 2y ago

It opens report-mob attack.

As Amethyst user I would like to see change or switching.

OriginalSize 2y ago

If it's based on those I follow this is less likely but also unavoidable for controversial figures. In this case it helps to have different policies that you could use in case you want a more raw experience.

dafuq, that's ridiculous

Don't Believe The Vibe 🌱🍋🍊 2y ago

Yeah but it's not how it works. Notes still show up, but with a warning.

not if you dont follow the account 👀

Don't Believe The Vibe 🌱🍋🍊 2y ago

Yes. The intention is to avoid this:

nostr:nevent1qqsr30psxrlq9he7gk837ey65te3svfeug7fyvszg3g8yg9fhtcesgspzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsygxx7urh795e65x0j25k22l7hlavqh7xss4eacu3pzwetxu26h2gl5psgqqqqqqsuek94w

ight, i believe that, the intention is well

not good tho.

quite problematic to amethyst imho

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

One of the reasons Amethyst is the flagship client is this exact feature. It was the software's natural evolution of a consistent stream of complaints about spam and scams on the platform. The user experience is just better because there is less spam, fewer scams, and these days less porn. It's not perfect (and I welcome PRs that make this better), but it is helpful.

Sedj 2y ago

As I was actually whinging about the other day, let us have client-specific options. I know they won't carry across to other nostr clients, or to other devices I may use your client on. Fine! In fact, that may have advantages as well.

Let me opt in (or out) of a safe mode that incorporates your filtering of reported users. Then separately, let me opt in (or out) of other filtered content. It is not good UX to have to click through each time you want to see a filtered note.

TY - and yes, my eyes have been on the competition.

Egge 2y ago

Let the user choose how many reports should lead to a note not being displayed.

mcshane 2y ago

woah

ScarcityFightClub 2y ago

Amethyst censorship ⬇️

OriginalSize 2y ago

An free network is going to need moderation policies at the client level and here were seeing one moderation policy which is working for some and not for others. I look forward to 100 different moderation policies and hope to see them become pluggable or extensions or subscription based. Let's see all the flowers bloom and collect those we like.

Thank you iefan for raising awareness and Vitor for fostering Amethyst in a way that lets us experience one option for how this can go. Documentation will be important for all options.

Andrew 2y ago

Ironic that this move basically makes it so a client acts like a mastodon instance Admin. I’d much rather we let users choose who to mute

I mean any five people from this comment section can censor any person for me right now, and I have no say whatsoever.

And the worst part is that the validity of the report doesn't even matter. They can literally report this and it will work the same.

I mean user literally have no say in this particular feature wse. We can't even turn it off.

I don't know maybe I am overreacting, but I just don't get it.

signal_and_rage 2y ago

even if you follow that person?

tina 2y ago

Thank you!! 🫂🤍 (confusing) 🙃😔

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

Seems like there’s a simple UI solution: allow the user to set the threshold number of reports. That way, instead of 5 you can set it to, say, 500 or 5 million.

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

I don’t know how hard this is to implement on Android, but here’s what it looks like in HTML:

Feel free to use this code if it helps. 🙏

Geist 2y ago

What about using a user configurable script that can be kept up to date from a repo? Like, I can subscribe to a bothunter list, if I ever feel like I'm not getting the right content then I can toggle that list off.

Jaspion 2y ago

#nostrscript

Jaspion 2y ago

nostr:npub1xtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsevkk5s is that a job for #nostrscript?

TonySly 2y ago

Sounds like an Amethyst bug.

Hey would everyone please kindly go to the global and let our mostr frens know about this feature?

#[0]

Holy shit the mostr mastoid bridge garbage is absolutely gone from my global.

#[0]

H 2y ago

Wait, what was the issue with mostr?

Apparently reporting now works in Amethyst and all the weebs and fur deviants got teleported back to Hell.

H 2y ago

Was there a lot coming across? People have to follow to pull that stuff across the bridge. Personal blocks are a better solution for this sort of thing. If a few people report you for some unfair reason I'm sure you won't like this functionality then...