These relays should NEVER be in your Public Outbox (write) OR Public Inbox (read) relay lists. Please remove them.
relay.nsec.app
purplepag.es
sendit.nosflare.com
groups.fiatjaf.com
relay.getalby.com
inbox.nostr.wine
filter.nostr.wine/...
relay.groups.nip29.com
They are just wasting yours and your followers data plan. They are designed to go into other lists, not the regular ones you use in your client.
You can check your relays on https://metadata.nostr.com/
Relay management is key (and harder than it should be).
Is this complexity the domain of the user, or the app dev?
Users will never know what relay is for what. If devs have a list, and it looks like we do, devs should recommend to users (read deny) when these types of relays are entered into the wrong spots. We need to start setting users up for success instead of failure due to complexity.
It's the freedom to fuck up.
*the guarantee to fuck up
Freedom is not free. But yes, clients need to do a better job
Even as a technical person, relays are currently more hassle than I'm willing to put into this for fun. If mine are wrong I don't even know of a decent up to date central resource to fix them.
Scattered half information like this that requires paging back and forth is never going to get a normy to get this right.
FUCK NORMIES
If we don't make the tools of freedom simple enough for anyone then not enough people will take it to matter.
It doesn't matter how free you can be if everyone around you is still trapped they can ruin your life easily.
RIGHT BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE CANT WAIT AROUND FOR THE DULLARDS. SATOSHI AGREES
Too much?
but what if you want to publish your profile to purplepag.es from amethyst? stuff like that, .. is how it ends up in an outbox. or would it publish to the general relays and you set it to general (and still get lots of rejections but at least your profile will update on the wider network).
im curious what will happen in the rewrite you are doing, will there still be general or not..
Yeah, that's the issue. But regardless, purplepages should never be in the outbox lists.
We might add an index list to send just the kind0 and kind 10002 there.
So, It cannot be in the general section too because otherwise it will just send everything to that relay.
last time i updated on metadata.nostr.com it sent the event to somewhere i never use and could only find on nostr.band, which i then queried with nak and sent to my actual relays..
so that's typically why i would use an app I trust more to do the update, and in amethyst at this time that means general or outbox. i also don't prefer having to publish a relay list of any kind just to use a relay..
Can we use only the Amethyst default suggestions and leave other relay groups empty?
Defaults are still good, but you need to choose outbox and inbox relays to host your content. Otherwise, we won't find you.
> We might add an index list to send just the kind0 and kind 10002 there.
Please not another event, we are scattering the basic profile config in too many places.
Maybe adding a "meta" flag to kind: 10002 is enough.
We are currently going in the opposite way. Even the Metadata event should not have nip05 and lightning addresses since those are not used by majority of Nostr applications. Sticking everything into just one event doesn't make much sense. The UI doesn't need to show different lists, but underneath it, there are dozens of lists already.
It's quite dispersive, IMO.
I should be able to fetch all the profile important stuff with a single REQ: basic metadata, outbox relays, DM relays.
> since those are not used by majority of Nostr applications.
This make little sense to me, doing a separate REQ to fetch a single piece of data of few bytes seems a waste of resources, and you have also to manage the case where the event is missing.
You can do the multiple kinds you need in just one REQ. I don't get the problem at all.
Sure, but you are still using more resources (from client and relay) than using a single event. What I don't grasp is this urgency to fracture the profile data, given its small size.
It's mostly PTSD from our massive follow lists and bookmark lists that break about half of the relays out there. We know shit breaks with large events.
Also, I would argue the opposite. Apps that don't use certain fields should not be forced to keep them in memory. Each app just downloads the exact content they need and leave bigger apps like Amethyst to suffer a bit with added memory. It's fine.
I never talked about following lists, these should stay separated, and maybe re-thinked to avoid the problems caused by the atomic structure.
About memory usage, we should reason keeping in consideration the real sizes: an average profile with 10 relays takes less than 1000 bytes, and the client can easily discard the useless data from memory as soon as it has been received.
Only if you need to download all the things, which most apps will never need to.
Everyone interacts with the same handful of people over and over. Just cache that data and background-sync it, periodically, so that the cache doesn't go stale.
The number of events is irrelevant, if you structure your fetches efficiently, and do some smart caching.
Users don't care about relays, outboxes, inboxes, sonofaboxes, whathaveyous! We just want to use this shit apps to shit post! If you make apps for nerds, you will be jerkin off each other. The strippers are long gone!
Relay management confuses me anyway. I guess I should put some time into that topic.... 😅
https://docs.nostr.wine/filter/readme#quickstart
The nostr.wine docs clearly states that I should add filter.nostr.wine to my relay list. You say that I shouldn't
On top come the differences between the nostr clients:
Primal only has one set of relay settings, which is easier for the average joe. While Amethyst has settings for inbox, outbox, local only,... Which makes it even harder to understand
There are many relay lists. Primal needs to grow and stop merging everything into one list. That doesn't make any sense. You don't want your DM and private relays being exposed to all your followers all the time.
The base nostr.wine can go in the outbox relay list. But not in the inbox relay list. Filter.nostr.wine should be an internal list that only you have access to it. inbox.nostr.wine should be in the DM relays list ONLY.
Thank you. Your post motivated me to try to better understand Relay Management.
For me, the paid relays are now only in the outbox, and only freely accessible relays are being used for the inbox.
For aggregator Relays I use local lists now
I never understood these relay thing. I use public relay, relay from my own (publicly available) lnbits instance, local relay... but I don't know which relay must go where and when do I need more than one or not.
🔥
We should __collect__ and __curate__ these Amethyst best practices 😉
I stopped because the new version sounds like it will be completely different than anything I have now 😅
Might i ask a semi passive task from you, nostr:nprofile1qqspw5udc2nzw6wsj3plrrphe0343744h0ucz9e4g248chl3w8kh03qppamhxue69uhkumewwd68ytnrwgqs6amnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dsq3gamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwv3sk6atn9e5k7m7dh6a and anyone else caring to help educate the ecosystem?
We gotta aggregate all these nuances together somehow. Whether as a list saved/bookmarked events, or even adding a #nostrdocs tag to a thread to find later. Hell, even tag me! 😅
Anything unclear but important to know, terminology, workflow, usability etc.
Might be a nice starting point for a nostr manual
Agree. I’ve been documenting best practices for a few months when I detect them. Example today thanks to Vitor:
https://github.com/nostrability/nostrability/issues/209
Feel free to create best practices issues in nostrability repo, for lack of a better place.
🙌
We're increasing the resolution.
Of course. What would be the most efficient way for existing resources & what would you like to see for new ones?
Nothing that can add labels post-publication seems to be working for me lately but anything other than that I can figure out.
Whether client specific, nostr specific, even zaps - any points of confusion. Minimal work, just some things for me to keep an eye out for and compile a set of resources to sort through.
The idea would be to tile up #TheNostr with a bunch of Q&A/terminology flashcards, in addition to any other more sophisticated, focused guides that could exist.
So a hashtag it is then... is that the one? It looks bare to me right now but my connection sucks at the moment. I feel like I've seen it used for tagging doctors previously though. #ndoc ?
Yeah i see that. Works for me! Nice hashtag mine 😂
I'd say it's early but really I'm just very clever 😊 ... consider it done (or doing anyway)
nostr:nprofile1qqstwf6d9r37nqalwgxmfd9p9gclt3l0yc3jp5zuyhkfqjy6extz3jcpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumrpdejqzyrhwden5te0dehhxarj9emkjmn9q9w8wumn8ghj7urjdau8jtnwdaehgu3dwfjkccte9eshqup0xvmkgdrrxvekydnyvscnzef3x56nxcenvsmkzctzvfjkgv35vf3k2wtpx5cxvcehxfnrwvf5xc6xgveevcuxvdfjvdjnsvmzv43kvwqa45pq3 would you also be interested in assisting with tagging under #ndoc any Nostr educational content as you create it or come across it? Maybe we can help build a Nostr knowledge base about Nostr on Nostr 😁
Just seeing this convo makes me realize how hard this system must be for a day to day user. 😐
Right, I have no clue, but I wonder why I have to seek out people I follow, because I never see their notes.
Cool but won't use until amber login support.
🤷
I just logged in to metadata.nostr.com using amber... 🤷
Unfortunately for users, there are a lot of complex policies that different relays adopt which make them unsuitable for inbox/outbox usage.
If a relay requires payment to write, and you use it as your outbox without paying, then your messages will not be accepted by that relay.
If a relay requires payment to read, and you use it as your outbox (paying or not), then most users can't read your posts because they didn't sign up for that same relay.
If a relay requires AUTH to defeat spam, and you use it as your INBOX, then people who care about privacy will not reply to your messages.
I could go on, the list of gotchas is far longer than just this.
Gossip client, admittedly written for technical people not normies, has a "test relay" button to check if a relay is suitable as an outbox or inbox.
I think it is complex even for devs. Like I don't know how to check if a relay is good or not for outbox, I had to look at the notices of each relay to figure out what they do :(
It's a Cambrian explosion of complexity. Very innovative space and cool ideas are being tested.
I don't know how to check fully either. I just react to what I do know and hope it is good enough for now.
We need some sort of better feature detection, or maybe we need to better utilize what we already have. NIP-11 has "payment_required" which is defined as payment for ANY action, so such relays are completely unsuitable for inbox/outbox/dm. "restricted_writes" means it won't be a good inbox. But then there are more. How can you deal with the posting policy? You have to just post and hope.
Your PR #1924 and nostr:npub1l3cgtsurhfchg4cyhhqudm70074sr96srhje330xc5m6czej5n9s9q6vs2 PR #1969 should be combined. Neither of them help explain however if the relay would be a good inbox or outbox.
This is an age-old catch-22. Give users the power, or basically make primal.
Balance will be the solution, but I don't know what that is in this case.
I'm facing the same problem.
These relays should NEVER be in your Public Outbox (write) OR Public Inbox (read) relay lists. Please remove them.
relay.nsec.app
purplepag.es
sendit.nosflare.com
groups.fiatjaf.com
relay.getalby.com
inbox.nostr.wine
filter.nostr.wine/...
relay.groups.nip29.com
They are just wasting yours and your followers data plan. They are designed to go into other lists, not the regular ones you use in your client.
You can check your relays on https://metadata.nostr.com/
i think clients should set the minimum and required list of relays so user can just use protocol and don't even think about it. when (if) user will need to add or remove relays, let them study how to manage relays (maybe some notice should appear when them trying to add or remove something that should not to be added or removed).
What normies see 👀
これらのリレーは、公開送信用リスト（write）または公開受信用リスト（read）に絶対に含めないでください。速やかに削除してください。
relay.nsec.app
purplepag.es
sendit.nosflare.com
groups.fiatjaf.com
relay.getalby.com
inbox.nostr.wine
filter.nostr.wine/...
relay.groups.nip29.com
これらのリレーは、あなたのデータ使用量とフォロワーのデータ使用量を無駄に消費するだけです。これらは通常使用するリストではなく、他のリスト向けに設計されたものです。クライアントで通常使用するリストには含めないでください。
リレーの状態は https://metadata.nostr.com/ で確認できます。
I thought by having sendit that i'd be tricking your outbox model into sending across the ecosystem :P
