Hypothetically, if let’s say bitcoin had a fixed yearly supply of new coins, instead of the current halving each epoch and so on, would you think it’ll make it more acceptable for circulation? Yes, I know that you all want to keep it as gold and all, but if it were to be used as a regular day to day currency and not just a store of value, the deflation would definitely hurt that. What are your thoughts about that? I once asked similar question almost a year ago, and had a lot of good and not so good replies. Some admitted that in the end early adopters just want to HODL it and keep it out of circulation, further causing deflation and hurting its adoption.

(There, I made a Bitcoin note 😂)

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We've already got a thousand inlationary cryptocurrencies to choose from. Why take away Bitcoin's strongest differentiator?

You tell me? Will it spell its demise if not used by anyone? Will it make just a digital property people invest into?

What do you think would happen to the value of a currency that no longer has a differentiating factor, that is now inflationary?

It would go the way of every other inflationary currency, towards zero.

You are just reciting commonly accepted narrative, without putting any thing to it.

Show me an exception. There isn't one. It isn't a commonly accepted narrative. It's the truth.

Show me how well the Gold is doing for the purposes of payment by common folks. Just because narrative is common, it doesn’t make it right or wrong, it is just common

What's gold got to do with inflating Bitcoin?

Gold, limited supply, we are digging less of it each year, it is used as store of value. Does it remind you of anything?

"Yes, I know that you all want to keep it as gold and all, but if it were to be used as a regular day to day currency and not just a store of value, the deflation would definitely hurt that. What are your thoughts about that?"

Here I was thinking because you were talking about using it as a currency.

If you programmatically add to the supply as you propose, it will trend towards zero. That's simple maths.

Everything trends toward zero, including human life. Also, nothing has inherent value, it’s a human assigned construct.

But back to the point. I was thinking of bitcoin more as a token to exchange value (like anything we use for that, gold, paper, IOU, etc). If the token that is used to exchange value increases in value just due to its age, then people are less likely to use it for the purposes of payment. What are your thoughts about this?

Lightning fixes this.

In lightning BTC can be divided even further than on-chain.

Division does not fix deflation, which is hurting economical growth the same way inflation does

Exactly. Bitcoin will have limited supply forever, as soon as all have been mined.

This also is blasphemy, but also an interesting take.

The world population is still growing as is its wealth. Matching this growth with currency production is not entirely evil.

I do spend a lot of time thinking about milisatoshis 😂

I am not worried about supply, I am worried about circulation. Any number is infinitely divisible 🤌🏻

The Gold standard was gold backing the dollar, nobody actually carried gold in their pockets to spend.

Perhaps we are destined for Tether over a bitcoin network world 😱

That’s what I am thinking, yes. And I don’t think that’s what Satoshi wanted it to be

Agreed

Tether is helpful for your to buy more Bitcoin. Is an indirectly way when direct is not possible. All alternativas are valid ones.

If Bitcoin is fully monetized there wouldn't necessarily be noticable deflation unless goods are being produced far more efficiently, in theory deflation would track productivity increases so about 2% or so

I would love for this to be the truth, but in reality that’s not how progress usually works, at least looking at the past

why do you think deflation hurts that?

do you think people would starve instead of spending their coin because prices would be always lower tomorrow?

It hurts economy and exchange of goods. Food alone does not make economy thrive

you think people wouldn't buy the good they wanted because they would be constantly waiting for prices to go down until they died?

2%.. 2%.. Where have I heard that number before 🤔

Transitory

Safe and effective

Bro, we’re approaching the singularity and you think productivity will be chugging along at 2%?

Keep supply fixed to 21m.

Wait some more years/decades until majority understand bitcoin as store of value.

Then it will get money for everything.

($m21-42/BTC)

Some bitcoiner already live in that future and use bitcoin as money in/out.

What you want is to bring the future to the present. Adoption takes time, people needs to learn abot bitcoin first, only then will they see it as money.

If everyone new about it there will be a 90% adoption already (albeit in the store of value use case). But we are at 1~2%, I only learned about it last year for example.

Patience, the product is good, advertisement is working, time is on our side.

lol! Time is on nobody’s side, we don’t get younger.

Well you've got a point there 😀. Still cannot force adoption of a voluntary network.

Monero already does this Fishcake.

Just get rid of Bitcoin entirely.

Is it used much? I have no idea, only asking

It has merchant services and a whole ecosystem. Most CEX have delisted it from their exchanges so access to public liquidity is kept artificially low.

Monero would win on outright mechanism because barriers to mining is low, and price is controlled by a tail emission.

A block every minute, in kB terms, and paying 0.6 per block is not a bad reward for mass CPU mining.

This way, the price doesn't artificially runaway from the every day Joe Soap in the third world.

Already 1XMR is out of reach for many, but in comparison to BTC, it's priced quite fairly and it shows over any moving average period

In other words, over time, monero's tail emissions would all for new market participants as supply would gradually increase over same time

This should tell you everything fishcake.

Monero is accepted everywhere another monero user is, why? Pure peer to peer without government oversight, exchange restrictions or plebs who'd like to tread on your freedoms.

i literally can send you xmr now, in Japan, and that's the end of the story.

Sounds like true cash to me.

What was the reason for delisting?

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Because the only utility is actual crime & it's not a store of value; it's an illiquid fiat shitcoin that nobody gives a fuck about or uses. 💁‍♂️

Sorry, I don't make the rules, I just report them. 🤷‍♂️

Have fun staying anonymously & privately poor w/your bags. 🤙

https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2025/04/28/monero-price-surge-likely-attributable-to-large-hack-zachxbt

So like cash?

If you cannot see that, then you need to educate yourself.

Bitcoin as it's stands is propped up by USDT, priced in USDT so your talking shite.

Educate yourself, then come back to the conversation kid.

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40% slippage in a single day from a single $330M #BTC PEBKAC social-engineering hack turned wash trade means that your coins are not real coins. 💁‍♂️

I hope that you never stop #Monero / #XMR bull-posting so I can watch you descend into:

A) #Bitcoin maximalism.

B) Abject poverty.

C) Psychotic breakdown.

Whatever happens, it's gonna super entertaining to watch. 🤙

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40% slippage in a single day from a single $330M #BTC PEBKAC social-engineering hack turned wash trade means that your coins are not real coins. 💁‍♂️

I hope that you never stop #Monero / #XMR bull-posting so I can watch you descend into:

A) #Bitcoin maximalism.

B) Abject poverty.

C) Psychotic breakdown.

Whatever happens, it's gonna super entertaining to watch. 🤙

Monero price outperformed BTC in the last 12 months

There was a time when the only usecase for bitcoin was crime

...until criminals realized that #Bitcoin / #BTC is horrible for crime, so the percentage of illicit transactions has fallen relentlessly every year; they just use banks. 💁‍♂️

Even ChatGPT knows #Monero / #XMR is overwhelmingly used for crime. 🤙

In other words, you're admitting it's terrible because it enables surveillance for the authorities...thats not a dunk

Appealing against something because it's not necessarily legal is stupid.

Bitcoin without custodians or not complying to "unrealized" gains tax could become illegal tomorrow. Then what? Bitcoin would turn into a bad thing according to you?

You must be replying to the wrong person because all I see is a non sequitur

I only say what I say. 💁‍♂️

YOU extrapolated all that other retardation through your shit-colored #Monero / #XMR glasses. 🤙

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Full circle back to the original thesis; the only utility value for #Monero / #XMR is crime because it's useless for anything else, so that's why nobody with any sense uses it for anything other than that. 🤷‍♂️

Thank you for your understanding; join team #Bitcoin / #BTC maxi or die. 💁‍♂️

You're welcome in advance for the enlightenment. 🤙

Are you saying Bitcoin can't and isn't used for crime?

If Bitcoin becomes criminal to use will you stop using it?

If you can only use Bitcoin for things that the law allows (central authority) then there is no point for it to exist.

The only thing that makes Bitcoin special is being able to use it despite what authorities allow dumb dumb.

I don't think you thought about this very much.

I am a Bitcoiner just not a maxi. The same way it would be stupid to be a hammer maximalist. I use the best tools for the job.

I literally said that criminals use #Bitcoin / #BTC in the note you reposted. 🤷‍♂️

But <1% of its utility is crime (and falling, unlike #Monero at ~30%). 💁‍♂️

I swear the vast majority of you #XMR bros are actually illiterate & lack any critical thinking skills (which honestly makes total sense considering you're being left holding the bag after the actual smart money left the coin years ago after the initial bubble). 🤙

This is just an admission that 99%+ of Bitcoin transactions are being used for things that are already completely allowed and could've just been achieved with digital fiat. Wow! Congrats on that! 🥳

ACTUALLY… #Monero / #XMR is LITERAL digital fiat; #Bitcoin / #BTC fixes this. 💁‍♂️

Nothing but canned responses for your retarded arguments moving fwd; it's been fun exposing your low IQ, but you can't afford my attention anymore. 🤷‍♂️

Enjoy your digital #fiat #cash coin; "I've moved on to other things." —Satoshi Nakamoto 🤙

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>"Nothing but canned responses"

Says the BTC maxi price-chart-for-every-argument walking trope.

Please move on. You can't hang.

moneros supply inflation is lower than golds.

obviously is a HUGE problem and makes Monero "digital fiat"

since gold has NOT served as a stable SoV for 4000 years 🙄

unfortunately

just running your mouth doesn't make things true.

its just obviously false that predictable supply inflation makes a money fail.

If money supply tightens, would btc nosedive?

probably.

the current price is mostly Cantillionaire speculation...

so, seems to follow.

It is more closely correlated today than it has ever been.

But it is also correlated to assets.

They somehow keep repeating that same argument without ever using their fedcoin in real life.

They basically just buy it in the hopes of getting a bit wealthier and then trading that to fiat again.

Someone tell them to buy stocks instead of crypto, since they clearly don't understand why we do this.

These Bitcoin bros ought to ring the opening bell at the stock market since they're essentially just investors in shirts and flip-flops.

Monero isn't backed by a central bank so saying it's the same as digital fiat is a false equivalence.

Also, I doubt Satoshi would be much of a fan of modern Bitcoiners.

He wouldn't. In fact, he lived his life in fear of losing his career and likely landing in jail due to the lack of privacy on those days.

Monero really solved a lot of things.

Especially when you consider that XMR added features he didn't.

The #Monero / #XMR monetary policy itself includes supply-based fiat-style value manipulation & reduction (which #Bitcoin / #BTC already fixed); it literally just recreated fiat dynamics (which is the monetary equivalent of discovering the circular wheel, then arguing that a triangular wheel is superior). 💁‍♂️

Enjoy being privately poor w/infinite inflation. 🤙

Imagine thinking that an unstable currency controlled by a central bank whose inflation is constantly changing due to public policy is the same as a decentralized currency's inflation which has an indefinite cap keeping inflation close to 0%.

Digital fiat =! Digital cash

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to, hoe. 💁‍♂️

Math still says that the #Monero / #XMR bros lose to the #Bitcoin / #BTC bros. 🤙

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except theres no "math" that says that.

Gold has been a stable money for 4000 years

with annual supply inflation that is 3-4x Moneros.

There's a word to describe people that think a >0% inflation rate is better than 0% inflation rate. 💁‍♂️

Retarded. 🤙

literally ONLY very online BTC maxis think a purely deflationary economy will be Only positive.

you just drank the cool aid and are otherwise economically illiterate.

Exactly, since deflation can cause less spending, recession, and de-incentivizing miners.

BTC bros have never heard of the Goldilocks principle.

precisely

There is no currency that does not experience inflation. Even gold and silver have went through inflation.

To act like Bitcoin has a 0% inflation rate and always will is overly optimistic and financially illiterate in nature.

https://fee.org/articles/why-bitcoin-is-technically-an-inflationary-currency-even-though-its-purchasing-power-is-increasing/

the only reason why gold failed as money is too many people relied on custodians. there wasn't anything wrong with its emission curve

"Too many people relied on custodians." Isn't that the very problem that Lightning and Ecash are suffering from too?

if price is all you are focussed on, you are just as stupid as all the other NGU Bitcoiners

Saylor and Blackrock are controlling BTCs price, and therefore its fate if it has nothing to offer than NGU.

Price isn't a driver; it's a byproduct. 💁‍♂️

And unfortunately for #Monero / #XMR bros, the free market has decided that their coin has no value. 🤷‍♂️

Your other point about #Bitcoin / #BTC being centrally controlled is simply false; individuals control the market, because that's how data-driven facts work (but you clearly don't know anything about that). 🤙

This is an example of the reverse of what you're saying. Monero is such a threat to their control over people that they have to ban and delist it everywhere they can. Funny that every time this happens it has the opposite effect and there is a surge in interest on social media and a pump in price shortly after (same thing happened when it was delisted from Binance last year)

By the way "the shadow realm" aka black markets are the only place you can actually use Bitcoin or Monero without permission. White market transactions are permissioned by definiton. Bitcoin was once the king of darknet markets. Now every market prefers Monero and the largest darknet market Archetyp is Monero only.

What’s in the heaven name “ shadow realm “

Black markets. He made it sound way cooler though I'm going to start using the shadow realm more often.

I would not recommended black market or that’s illegal things .

Not my cup of tea .

Just clean and honest as the law prescribed.

Same. I follow every law and pay all my taxes like a good little slave.

😁 soma man named it bitch and slap them on the butt then named it as tax slap ! They slapped you with big tax !

Cute chart, but after 11 years #Monero #XMR is still stuck at the hashrate of 2010 #Bitcoin / #BTC (which was achieved in only 2 years). 🤷‍♂️

In logarithmic terms, the relative hash adoption is sandal-stomped dogshit. 💁‍♂️

In linear terms the relative hash adoption is literally non-existent. 😏😂

You can rationalize that shitcoin all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that reality disagrees with your thesis. 🤙

If you honestly think you can compare the number of sha256 hashes

to the number of RandomX hashes

and think it's meaningful

then you're technically illiterate and we can safely ignore your opinion

Sorry about your shadowban. 💁‍♂️

Not sorry that you're losing for being so violently opposed to reality. 🤙

lol

pathetic 👎

Yeah, I also don't think Satoshi thought it through well enough. A hard cap is good in a sense, but you have high prices over time, aka gold bullion. It wasn't the intention, but as soon as Hal suggested the 1mb cap, it really started on a downward trajectory.

I think, unbounded and scaled, miners would earn good profits for pow transactions on chain, but alas here we are today with basically new side chains and witnesses missing.

I think bitcoin was created like this by satoshi and should be left like that. "To change the foundations that have made him great in all these years? And that shouldn't it work like a coin tomorrow? Just because it's deflationary? It's not that if all the currencies we know to date were of an inflationary nature, then it means that in the near future a currency like ₿ (deflationary) could not work 🤷‍♂️ if today it has not yet blossomed as a currency it is because it is still early. It's an accumulation game now. You will see that already from 2035 when 99% of the ₿ will have been mined people will start spending it. The accumulation game will be over and those who have ₿ will no longer have fiat currency. And so we will be forced to spend it 🤷‍♂️

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That’s Dogecoins near exact design

one of the purpose of #BITCOIN is to be acceptable for circulation of value.

Deflation come with big players invest and big moves.

But when (i didn't say "if") #bitcoin will be more used and not only stack by most bitcoiner, then it will be more stable :

- miners will have fee to be paid (on more transactions)

- the ones who want some bitcoin will have to pay the price for it (it will become rare)

- bitcoin is more and more used worldwide by country in their exchange to avoid being slave of foreign fiat currency like dollar. And this is also a good news for stability.

The only thing that could hurt bitcoin and make it deflate again is some fucking laws that would forbid it in country, because all company and KYC users will have to urgently find a workaround for this, some will sell, some will go in foreign countries...

And it will be harder for the people of these "BTC-forbidden" countries to use it as an exchange of value.

Saying that, #bitcoin will stay alive for the rest of the world, always, so it is not a big issue.

And if you watch it closer, we are nowadays in a uncertain moment, fiat, dow jones, nasdaq, gold... are in trouble.

Not only because their value is less or more.

But because investor, move their big funds quickly from one to the other a lot more faster than before.

So #bitcoin is also touched by this huge amount move.

With a lot more "normal people" using bitcoin "investors" will be a less part of bitcoin "value" and deflate will be more rare.

This is just my point of view of this.

I am not worry. I am a little more concern about #bitcoin unity nowadays.

Well, Bitcoin is the opposite end of what FIAT is. Then, spending less valuable currency, the idea is rooted in the concept of Gresham's Law: "bad money drives out good." If people perceive one currency to be less stable or likely to depreciate compared to another, they will tend to spend the "bad" money and hoard the "good" money. It's a natural inclination to preserve value.

That is a myth and not true. Bitcoin isn't deflationary currency. It's fixed.

I mean... I probable won't get to the point where circulation is final aaaand the supply is, in fact, expanding. Yes, we know it will stop and yes, it's not based on trust. Bitcoin with the B is fixed. Just not in our human timeframe. Maybe it's the beauty of it

i think the point is a Bitcoin standard is economically deflationary.

*because of its fixed supply.

Kind of a silly point, but just occurred to me for first time that if not hard capped then utxo set would grow in size forever. You can prune blocks for size but are stuck with ever growing utxo set?

yep, it only gets bigger

It seems you're doomed on a long enough timeline then with tail emissions. Check mate

keeping track of issuance is easy, not a problem

scaling and usage is hard

and people have certainly said that you should keep it as simple as possible if billions are going to use it for daily txs.

monero loses in that respect.

but for real, i dont think growth of processing power is going to flatten out.

and storage is cheap.

Not sure I follow, but am close to understanding... will get back to you maybe.

But just theoretically speaking, on long enough time forward, utxo set would exceed reasonable storage capability (maybe in a jillion years), as there's got to be some theoretical limit to storage efficiency (atomic level constraint to encode 0/1s). Unless I'm missing something.

excuse me 🤭

a better way to say it might be

"usage increases the utxo set faster than new issuance"

Faster yes, but with a limit (1 sat, or whatever smallest fraction of say xmr is). No limit on slower growth force, so far enough out it's a theoretical thing unless I'm missing something. I realize it's not a realistic gotcha, I just like how clean that feels. 😎🤭

As it shouldnl be. Otherwise society is robbed of the deflationary effects of technology. Robbed of the progress by whoever is getting the new units first.

thats a pretty economically ignorant argument tbh

there are several good reasons why deflation is a problem and pretending like deflation is only positive is retarded

Deflation in the money is bad. Deflation in cost of good and services is good. How is anything but money, being more abundant bad. Please make the argument.

Argue how more food, energy, water, is a bad thing... I wouldn't expect a person that thinks monero is good money to understand...

when prices are falling

people delay spending

and economic activity slows.

its a fact

If econominc activity slows, do we produce less, you mean?

yes that follows

If we produce less, are less goods competing for the same fixed supply?

We tend to produce less when there is less demand

There won't be less demand though... Demand doesn't change based on supply. They are two separate metrics for a reason.

I didn’t say that one is tide to the other, I used the word “tend” for a reason

When we have more resources, they economy grows. People have more children. Growth is precisely a factor of how many resources are available. Abundant resources is what allows for growth. Bankers have confused you so much that you actually believe growth comes from having less resources today than we did yesterday. That's backwards.

Wut? Did I say that? You are confused about what I said.

Your position is that deflation (more good for less, ie more available resources) cause economic decline.

Is that not right?

My hypothesis is that deflationary nature of the fixed supply may hinder the circulation of the said currency.

I don’t take positions on the topics I don’t care too much about, in general

this is a commonly accepted fact.

I have no expertise in the area, so all I can do is hypothesize and extrapolate based on whatever logic circuitry in my head 😂

it really is that straightforward.

you *already see it happening ffs.

nobody wants to spend BTC because "generational wealth".

That would count as anecdotal evidence in my book, and yes, I can see it

I think you are not entirely wrong to think that. But it's a fallacy to think that you have more incentive to hold than to spend just because it's fixed supply. If all of your money is held in Bitcoin, it's easier to understand. I don't have dollars... I still have to eat, I still desire to build things. That means I still have to spend money. Doesn't matter what kind it is. Spending is spending. What it really create disincentive for is malinvestment. You are more careful with spending. You still spend. You just make better investments with that money.

Spending is spending. Contrary to popular belief, saving is high time preference. In order to grow wealth, I mean really grow wealth, you make investment that have a return on those investments. People that make good investments will outperform those that hodl in a world entirely on a Bitcoin standard.

You are right that it's circulation will be hampered by its massive increase in purchase power. But it's not the fixed nature that's the cause. It's because Bitcoin has to monetize from zero. It's hard to know where you are in the S curve. It also doesn't matter when you no longer have any other form of money. People still want to just do things.

its an established economic fact that people delay spending when their money will be worth MORE in the future.

ie, the economy slows.

maxis armchair dismissal of the deflationary problem is just bad economic theory.

And you can make more by making good investment than you can just sitting on your hands waiting for technology to improve. The ones improving the technology (spending money) will be making more than those hodling.

incentive to make any investment at all is drastically reduced

because prices fall when you are just sitting on your money

I'm not saying there's ZERO economic activity.

obviously there will tx for essentials.

but theres a spectrum

and erring completely on the other end of that spectrum is equally stupid.

ideally

the number of monetary units would generally track with economic growth and there would be stable prices.

The incentive is to make investment in things you know will outperform the deflationary effects of technology. Something that is true today.

under *highly inflationary conditions

investment becomes gambling.

there is a spectrum.

its easy to make a good case for monetary inflation that follows economic growth.

that would be the safest and likely the most prosperous condition. its just impossible to achieve algorithmically.

but any sane and known monetary policy would solve most of these problems.

unfortunately a hard cap on the number of monetary units is a knee jerk reaction to inflationary insanity.

it is NOT sane monetary policy.

"2%" is what has caused the gambling... You are the one being ignorant.

its not 2%, and nobody believes it is or has been

.

so no. it isn't 2% inflation that has caused the degenerative environment.

Any inflation at all is what create malinvestments.

no. that is incorrect and

except for Bitcoin maxis online

nobody thinks that.

because economic activity (generally) also inflates.

in a flat or downturn I would generally agree tho.

so I would guess between 0 and 1% is the sweet spot.

In other words it's reduced to the appropriate level with proper incentives that actually match the real world. Any more investment than that will only serve to create more malinvestments.

no.

a purely disinflationary environment doesn't create some magic level of "appropriate investment"

it incentivizes not investing at all.

unless you can be *sure the investment will beat the appreciation the money would have anyway.

Which creates the environment for appropriately investing... You should not be investing in something that you don't know will provide you a return on investment... That's the whole point.

whatever dude.

at this point you're just wilfully ignoring what I'm saying.

good luck with your binary thinking.

sounds logical to me

How does that affect prices?

well

thats upward pressure of course

and because growth is deflationary (downward pressure) an equilibrium is reached somewhere

between growth and peoples reluctance to spend

I'm contending that under a hard cap of monetary units

that equilibrium is a stagnant economy where people ONLY buy absolute necessities as much as possible

I would be curious, how an aging population plays a role in this, in your opinion?

Also could be an interesting thing to think about that delayed gratification is hard: eating healthy, excercising, investing. Not something too many are capable of. Could be interesting if such people would change in a deflationary environment.

Who creates the value? What right does some random degenerate hodler have to the deflationary affects of technology?

They have the same right to the deflationary technology is everybody else on the whole f****** planet... What the hell are you talking about.

What right does everybody on the whole planet have to the deflationary effects of technology? Have all these random people done anything to actually create that value you say they have the right to?

What?

??

It doesn't make sense.

Don’t try to make sense of it all , ride or die 😂

a fixed number of monetary units that represent an ever increasing amount of economic output

is a deflationary monetary economy.

False. Just because prices fall doesn't mean the money is the deflationary. You are attributing the cause of deflation to the money when it's not. It's attributed to technology. That's just human action. People don't just stop doing things because it gets easier to live. We make more people...

You are conflating two different things here, increased efficiency and increased monetary unit valuation

People value the units the same. It buys them more because of efficiency.

when prices fall, people do NOT value the units the same. the price of money is constantly increasing.

unless Im misunderstanding what you're saying

I thought the deflation would eventually be caused by coins leaving circulation faster than new coins are emitted?

Thereotically, the coins would still be there and new ones would be added (inflation). Practically, there are fewer coins in circulation and the available money supply is reduced (deflation).

Sure but Bitcoin is infinitelt devisable. The deflation of the money only comes with human action either by mistake or on purpose. As time moves on, my guess is the mistakes of losing your keys becomes increasingly rare. The only deflation that happens is really when people intentionally die with their keys. Either way the true supply is still fixed. The measuring stick is still 21 million. That's he important part. The measuring stick does not change.

Fixed supply does not support economic growth. The economy stagnates then collapses.

See: history.

What history are you looking at? Throughout history inflation systems have always collapsed and returned to hard money.

No, fixed hard currency does not allow for economic growth.

Debt does.

We discussed this already

We discussed, but you wrong.

okay I'm at my desk;

No I'm not wrong because this is global standards.

Debt facilitates economic growth. If you want to do anything substantial that increases GDP, you require financing. That is the explicit purpose of banks and bankers. To issue financing and debt. Central banks don't do this by the way, only BANKS.

Debt creates enough leeway for real estate, construction, developments, research etc. etc. to be undertaken without explicit risk in moving physical commodities.

example: Joe Soap wants to create a block of new apartments. This development will cost him 500 million. He goes to the bank, pitches the idea and gets approved financing of 600 million. This 600 million is "funny money" or debt, that has a interest yield on it which he is liable to pay back or will have a underlying collateral to pay. The bankers then take that percentage as profit, whilst PAYING BACK the reserve bank for the issuance. The reserve bank will set baseline rates to either allow for liquidity or remove it. That's all they do.

The 2008 financial crisis was simply an over issuance of shitty debt to buy and build houses. China faced the exact same thing in 2022 with Ever-grande.

The current issuance on car debt for second hand cars is a huge signal again, so look into that. Unsecured loans for second hand cars.

Many many many empires and countries have collapsed upon themselves because they did not issue enough debt to facilitate their endeavors, from the Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Romans etc. etc. because in order for them to DO any new GDP-growing developments they first had to acquire the GOLD to do so. If you want to look more modern, look at any European empire, including England and how as mercantilism died, so did their grip on territories, wealth, bullion and influence. Belgium, Portugal, Spain, France any colonial power is a case study.

Example: if the Romans had 200 tons of Gold bullion, which is used currently to run the endeavors of the state, then where to they get the capacity to build (and pay) for new buildings or new sieges? Do they take from their 200 ton bullion to pay the workers or the soldiers? That was the case for a long time.

BUT in order to increase GDP, the reserves need to increase. This is mercantilism; Adam Smith/Classical Economics. In order for say, the Netherlands to prosper, it had to take over the Dutch East Indies and Indonesia etc, extract that wealth back to the Netherlands and then have those reserves to develop and grow.

Hence why Keynesian economics ended up winning and why Classical/Austrian economics is relegated to the hollow halls of social media and podcasts.

Truth, but there are systemic risks, and more importantly, fragility, usually not discussed.

Issuing new debt in a fractional reserve paradigm requires continuous underlying growth in production and consumption to pay the return creditors require.

It also requires continuous underlying growth in government coercive capacity and willingness to enforce the rules of the game.

This ends in tears every time. But is very good while it lasts, for those close to power.

> Issuing new debt in a fractional reserve paradigm requires continuous underlying growth in production and consumption to pay the return creditors require.

No, debtors just needs to produce a few percent more than they consume which is really easy.

well, you keep playing the game really

It's a good game. It works.

If you think this game is working... You are crazy. I'm what sense is this game working for anyone but the people with hard assets that live in the US?

It's working for anyone productive in a civilized society. I'm productive and live in a civilized society. Works for me.

Most of the global population would disagree with you. The numbers would also disagree with you.

I neither care about the numbers and especially not about the global population. I care about myself and the few likes of me. If 90% of the global population doesn't "make it" that's not a bug that's a feature.

Survival is tough. The 21st century will be nothing like the 20th.

Why would you rather have more people needlessly struggle if there is an alternative?

You realize you are just admitting you're a bad person right?

Fractional reserve in the US is 0% and banks create money for loans out of thin air

https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm

This is also the case in Australia (though this was implemented much earlier).

https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2018/sep/money-in-the-australian-economy.html

There are still many regulations including capital adequacy requirements though.

Dude, this is just banker / fiat spiel. Lets break it down and keep it simple.

How does creating money from nothing (diluting the money supply) create economic growth vs having a fixed money supply not based on debt (ie asset based money like Bitcoin instead of debt based)?

Please elaborate what the difference is.

I just explained it though?

No. You buy bitcoin, hodl it forever and golden palaces appear and everyone is happy.

Do you even listen to podcasts?!

No one has suggested that. I've never suggested just hodling. You have to spend money if you want to make money.

I didn’t say you did… I’m just generally talking the piss.

The main difference is liquidity to do the developments. By funding the debt, bankers can repackage that to instituations or pay out an interest rate to saving account holders.

Other than that, the 600 million goes into materials, labour, localised workforce, job creation etc. etc. and when the housing is completed the apartments offer cheaper rents, more accommodation etc. etc.

Society improves off that debt issuance.

It's why Strike is offering loans against bitcoin, something like 100k for 2.5BTC. This is a debt facility that allows you to do things (hopefully that make you a return) and pay off the debt.

You can still have debt in a fixed money system....

well then, what's the difference really?

Promissory note on bitcion == promissory note on gold.

Either way you're holding paper, whilst someone else holds the actually underlying

The difference is when someone makes a bad investment, they cannot get bailed out.

And how does this produce more than with a hard money standard?

Economic growth is the increase in the production of goods and services in an economy over a period of time. It is usually measured by the rise in a country's Gross Domestic Product (GDP) or Gross National Product (GNP).

https://youtu.be/seqoOnr2ebU

yes, but it requires financing to do so.

Like I said earlier, if you have 200 tons of Gold, you can only do 200 tons worth of value. If the state is using 197 tons of gold to run itself, then you only have 3 tons available to develop or grow.

In order for you to say do 50tons of new work, say build a new Colosseum, you'd need to pay for labour and for materials, before even any economic growth.

Does this make sense?

I don't get your math. How does it produce more goods and services than not using debt and just hard money?

If Bitcoins issuance was doubled, would that produce more economic growth or what would happen?

Read The Wealth Of Nations by Adam Smith. This should help.

Economics is the study of systems. You need to have a holistic point of view and consider all levers of the system to see how it works. It's not complicated, but requires you to have a holistic understanding of finance, stats and economics - and maybe supply chain management, but not so much.

I see the problem. You went to Wealth of Nations before reading basic economics. Your understanding is as flawed as the keynesians. Maybe try basic economics by Sowell first.

Lol I have a degree in business administration bro did 4 years

Appealing to a college degree is not the flex you think it is... Kamala Harris is more "educated" than me too.

it is when I apply for a job, that's for sure.

IDK why you people think education is a farse? People literally get hired from prestigious schools, if American institutions has gone to shit, doesn't mean other global institutions have.

100% guarantee wall and main street are not hiring Hustler University graduates, or Kamala Harris.

I have a better paying job than most college graduates... There are more companies accepting applications without college degrees every day... Your piece of paper to get you a job is on the decline.

if you think so;

Again, you legally can't hire some bum off the street who doesn't have qualifications to do a job where you need qualifications i.e. handling other people's money.

Remember, I don't have an art degree and I'm one off an MBA, so straight C-Suite hire.

Its not my thought, it's fact. And no, not every job requires a degree. SpaceX doesn't and they build rockets... You look at people without a degree as a bum off the street. That's your problem. I do engineering for a living yet I don't have a degree or even a PE stamp. You know what I have? Years of experience and a portfolio to prove I know how to do math. And I do it better than many PEs out there.

bro how can you do engineering at any competent level and have no qualifications? that's just wild.

I'm sorry I spent zero dollars and you spent thousands. You are so bewildered that people can actually learn stuff on their own without having to pay someone to teach them. The fact that you find that hard to believe is the astounding thing.

You just don't want to admit to yourself you wasted your money on an appeal to authority. No wonder you don't know real economics. You were taught by the keynesian system.

you guys live in some place devoid of reality. name one place that uses Classical economics in 2025?

I'm quite fine with my knowledge base, it's helped my this past decade.

New age economics is wild, ngl - and laughable.

I've read it man, but your claim was that using debt produced more economic growth than use hard money.

So far you didn't answer this.

yes, because there is more money created of hard assets than there are hard assets to create growth. It's really not hard to understand, and I have answered this several time already, you're just not seeing it.

This is literally why strike is offering loans in fiat currency against hard asset BTC. Any hard cap coin or commodity will always reach a point where there is not enough reserve to start new projects.

What happened every time someone got fiat loans for their Bitcoin? (Latest Thor chain)

If this is true,.why isn't countries who print money super growing?? Argentina, Egypty Turkey etc?? Your argument doesn't hold up to real life.

because no one wants to hold their currencies in reserve. In fact, it's an illustration of what I am talking about earlier, where certain FX has a premium, not solely based on hard assets, but intangible assets as well. Economic stability, economic outlook, electricity supply, etc. lots to factor in.

Hyperinflation and run-away debt obligations happen all the time. The USA would be in that same basket, however they are not because they print themselves out of a crisis every time. These other countries cannot do that, hence they get relegated. Japan is another one.

I love you Slayer,.but you are a fiat maxi! 😂

Fiat makes the world go around, until it doesn't, I'm going to play the game.

After all, aren't all of you fiat maxi's cause your all concerned about a PRICE in US dollars?

No... I'm not concerned with the USD price of Bitcoin. I'm concerned with the amount of Bitcoin I have relative to other peoples stack of Bitcoin. I'm doing just fine. You're still playing a game. I opted out years ago.

"I'm concerned with the amount of Bitcoin I have relative to other peoples stack of Bitcoin."

ah yes, mercantilism. IDK how you can't see that as you type it out?

I was a fiat maxi until I switched to a Bitcoin Standard. Bitcoin is asymmetric risk protection, why would I hold something that can be created from nothing?

Dollar is a common measurement, but being quicky usurped by pricing in bitcoin and sats.

why don't you own Sex token? If supply dynamics and price is what you're after, there are better coins than Bitcoin.

Let alone any fork of Bitcoin. The hard currency you claim is also controlled by a small subset of developers; who determine your money, much like new world bankers.

So the question is why Bitcoin? Like i know why I'd take gold; but bitcoin already has so many forks - even this new knots thing is a new thing on "hard currency"

I'm done talking about it. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't? Bitcoin is on version 26 but Gold is still version 1 from like 12500 years ago

let's be real about "hard money".

The problem is you're all in on one asset class. That's your own indaba, but at the end of the day if you can hit a 26.7% CAGR, you'll 100x you investment in 10 years.

I am all in. And it's working better than anything else and I'm outperforming everyone I know...

There aren't. What are you talking about?

2017 there was a fork of Bitcoin, now again too looks like it's going to happen. At some stage, there will be a blackrock fork and they will most likely increase supply

So? What's your point. I told you I'm done talking about it.

We're not talking hypotheticals, we're talking about current reality. Harder money has always superceded less harder money (gold replaced silver etc) Game theory and Nash equilibrium confirms it - even suggests the best action for an individual to take is to adopt it! Playing the fiat game is the losing strategy, even if the majority still use it. Look up asymmetrical gains!

in other words, hard assets, are often cumbersome and slow to move. In fact they are that way because they are hard yielding (aka hard to mine and refine). There is only so much of it as well, thus if you cannot fund with hard assets, you fund with debt. That debt is an IOU issuance with collateral.

Bitcoin isn't hard to move.

to some degree it is, not as hard as gold bullion, and not as easy as cash.

Remember, if you have it in cold storage, you'll have to load it up, move it, check mempool for fees, then move it on chain - these things aren't so easy and are actually quite cumbersome if you think about it.

It would be quicker than me giving cash to you. I would have to go to you physically first of all....

Who says you cannot fund with hard assets?

People with no assets??? So they need to make money from nothing to steal from those who do? Is this the magic formula to economic growth?

History says that you will stagnate. It doesn't mean you can't, but it doesn't mean you will out pace other nations.

I don't give a s*** about outpacing other nations in the short term. That's exactly what it is short-term thinking I want a nation that exists forever. All nations ever have collapsed because of loose monetary policy. If you knew History so much you think you would know that....

Well you can't have it both ways. Either you have a classical economy that only grows when it extracts the wealth of another nation, or you go with localised models that issue debt, without risking reserves.

As mentioned, if you want to pay in hard currency or commodities, that's fine, but you only have a fixed supply of said commodities and when that runs dry, you'll have to seize it from others to facilitate your growth.

Want that new warship? Well if you're not issuing debt, then you're paying with gold, or Bitcoin.

Then you have a depreciating boat, no hard assets reserve and you collapse.

See British, Spanish, Portuguese

Now you are finally understanding, yes, hard money doesn't work for central planning (communism)and government theft - this is why separating money and state is so important - in the US before 1913, the government was no bigger than the post office involved in people's lives.

In a hard money system (which we are returning to) Economic growth can only be actioned by those with hard money or by people doing proof of work. People who actually do the work get rich - that's why the saying pull yourself up by the bootstraps came from and how even people with regular blue collar jobs became quite wealthy still before the 1971 switch from gold.

There is no creating money from nothing to buy hard assets (fraud under contract law)...

Can you prove this?

My reading of history is that golden ages were under a hard money standard - the most prominent was Venice with their Gold coinage which produced the renaissance. It collapsed when the hard money standard fell.

The next way Belle Epoque (beautiful age) which was also a hard money age which like the renaissance saw the peak of human art and music (Beethoven etc).

Look at all the buildings and architecture from these times - this was built on a hard money standard (bitcoiner term low time preference) Vs now... Architecture now resembles more communism than beauty.

Mansa Musa debased Venice when he travelled through to Mecca.

The entire downfall of European mercantilism is a case study. Take your pick from Portugal through to Belgium, France, Germany etc. all had mercantile economies.

The downfall comes in when you don't have liquidity to fund your endeavors. Debt creates liquidity.

The downfall of empires is caused by war - abandon hard money for fiat to create war. Each and every time. And if fiat money was so good, why did they always switch back to a hard money standard?

Also did you read Adam Smith? He didn't advocate for fiat money, only metal coinage and asset backed loans..

You are talking pure Keynesian.

indeed, war to acquire more hard assets. But then unable to sustain the war because the current reserve cannot pay i.e. you paid out all your gold to your soldiers already.

Yes, I have read Adam Smith and other economic works. Not once did I say he did, he is classical economics, aka mercantilism. I already said this though. I'm "talking" Keynesian because it is what works for every government run economy in the world.

But like I said, you can most certainly return to Mercantilism, Trump wanting Canada and Greenland is that basic economic principal. Will they win a war though, or would that end the empire?

But I listened to 40 hours of podcasts and it’s different!

Really sounding like a banker my man...

People just do things. We don't need debt to just do things.

I'll explain it when I'm at the PC keyboard

Don’t try to teach those who don’t want to be taught and set in their ways.

I'm not knowledgeable on anything; not having a willingness to learn is more detrimental than anything else.

The same could be said about you and your position evidently.

We have never had a fixed money system in human history so... And that's just not true. The amount of money in the system does not affect real economic growth. People just do things.

what?

That's wrong. Literally gold bullion in merchantile economies. Hell the whole of the 1400's to 1700's were based on this economy. If we go further back, sumerians, eygptians etc.

you'll notice that BREAD and BEER were currency, not gold. You need to seriously research this, or read Adam Smith as a starting point.

Gold is not a fixed money system.

Gold is not a money system at all. no one is getting paid in gold coins or bullion unless you explicitly ask for it.

Stop saying stuff;

Gold is a hedge against inflationary pressures, both ways, as is many other store of value commodities with quantifiable use cases.

Gold WAS the monetary system for most of human history... Either by itself or with Copper and Silver...

The developed countries of the world were backing their currency by gold AND minting coinage with gold and silver in the beginning of the 20th century.

The middle part of that century saw a transition away from that towards fiat.

The last third of that century saw the full move to the fiat system.

What’s the confusion here?

There is no confusion.

Right On 👍

People used to be paid in precious metal coinage.

Sometimes that coinage was debased, sometimes it was real.

We don’t pay people in precious metals from our coin purse anymore.

We usually pay them in electronic fiat, but we’re starting to see people pay in bitcoin.

indeed it was debased. When Mansa Musa travelled through North Africa and parts of the Middle East on his way to Mecca, he handed out Gold like it was candy, which lead to severe debasing of gold due to over supply.

I believe on the way back he collected some of it just to help regulate the economies of Italy, Greece, Egypt etc.

Indeed, also the Spanish flooded the gold markets with their spoils of the New World which led to an economic crash.

yes, well this is post WW2 because again, the limited number of reserves meant that Europe couldn't rebuild itself WITHOUT debt. So the USA facilitated that debt but shifting away from hard commodities into paper reserves or IOUs/promisary notes.

These promissory notes take on more than just the debt burden; it encompasses all American potential GDP, future growth and labour endeavors, which makes it more worthwhile than just gold.

“it encompasses all American potential GDP, future growth and labour endeavors”

Not clear on this point.

so the dollar is less about it's gold reserves, but more so about ALL reserves, from military, oil, gas, technology, open markets etc.

It is also based on the future production of goods and services; in other words, there is a premium on the dollar because the future labours of the US citizen will be used to repay the debt. It's a high labour class and product class too.

You're taking a dollar for the potential of a US worker to pay you back on that dollar that they borrowed from you

Does this make sense? Don't worry - it took our class a few good sessions to understand this concept too.

The US worker in this case, in comparison to other workers i.e. education, skills, labour etc. but I suppose that has changed in the past ten years

The demand for stacking US Treasuries has definitely changed in the past ten years. I don’t think it’s a debate that it has been a desirable asset to hold, that’s a fact.

With regard to holding US treasuries, all that matters is the debt can be repaid and in most cases it’s the ability to print money that has kicked that can down the road.

You're taking a dollar because it’s a currency that’s universally accepted and in most cases because it’s being debased far less than an unstable currency, and yes this gets us back to what underpins that global reserve currency status but I wanted to at least set the table on a few of those points.

Creating massive amounts of debt to rebuild Europe happened because there was a war that reached the levels of mass destruction it did from creating massive amounts of debt to finance that destruction.

yeah that gain in value from the potential future labour seems to be eroding as people are less and less confident that the USA can maintain it's economy.

The US has shifted to move it's debt into USDT and basically offload it to others via USDT

The dollar is about proof of violence. The dollar has power not because of any reserves. I has value only because of the full faith and credit of the US government and their ability to pay back their loans.

basically so, but the "pay back the loan" is just printing more dollars. That's why the US is in a position where it's reserve currency of the world, at the detriment to every other country.

Which is why the "full faith" part becomes less trustworthy every day. This nation will collapse for the same reason every other economic powerhouse failed. Loose fiscal policy.

yeah but that's why empires collapse.

In order for excessive growth, you need to issue the debt to facilitate that growth because the reserves cannot. Unless you go an horde someone else's economy - but that only works for a short time.

Hence why the US leaps and bounds in growth, it has high debt issuance that facilitates everything.

And they can't default because they can just print their way out of the default, no other country can do this.

And the US will collapse too...

well, that's the thing right. If the world starts to wane on US confidence, not only to pay its debts but the future of payment, then it very well might go the exact way of the USSR

Why don't you just use something else? There plenty of inflationary shotcoins to choose from.

With inflation - such as a fixed, constant issuance as you describe - the cure for high prices is high prices. This leads to less distribution and more HODLing (and births the BUST part of boom/bust cycles).

With deflation - such as a fixed supply, like bitcoin, would create - the cure for HODLing is lower prices. This leads to more and more distribution (like the BOOM part of boom/bust cycles).

Both processes take time (ie, the cycle).

With gold - prior to the dollar’s existence - things were deflationary or static. There were still boom/bust cycles. People were still able to acquire gold. Prices just fell accordingly.

Bitcoin is infinitely divisible.

So what problem are you solving for? Are you just impatient? Let the free market do what it has done long before you or bitcoin existed.

circulation will accelerate as Graham' law is.

Deflation is only bad in an inflationary system ie fiat. Fiat demands constant expansion in order to not collapse. Sound money in based on capitalism with savings and investment being the driver of increased production. Where as inflationary systems promote debt and spending as the currency is constantly losing value so you need to spend it now.

Bingo.

deflationary conditions obviously cause hoarding.

people delay spending when prices are falling. its simple and common sense .

why make investments if your purchasing power in increasing?

ffs you see it now.

why spend Bitcoin if those sats are "generational wealth"?

mempools are empty ffs.

its already happening.

Hoarding money is a Keynesian way of thinking. It’s called saving, saving is the foundation for investment. Only in an easy money fiat system is investing based on debt.

Yes but the dominant system is still the fiat inflationary system. Bitcoin currently exists within the fiat system. So people still have to play by fiat rules. So in the fiat system you are incentivized to spend or borrow to spend and hold assets that appreciate. Two systems are colliding but bitcoin is still minuscule even over a trillion dollars compared to the fiat system and the crony capitalism that exists today.

I'm not really thinking about the relationship with the fist system.

I'm talking about a Bitcoin standard where total economic activity is represented by a fixed number of units.

its a deflationary environment that incentivizes hoarding

as we already see.

We see it today because we live in an inflationary system. You can’t separate the two unless you are a person that lives 100% on bitcoin. In which case you would spend Bitcoin out of necessity. What we see today is what a 16 year old technology clashes into a fiat inflation system. You just need to look at when gold was used as currency when civilizations thrived under money with limited scarce supply.

Yes

and gold has monetary inflation.

under a fixed number of monetary units it can AT BEST be a deflationary environment.

either that or a depression.

Bitcoiners touting that situation as a cure to our economic woes are ignorant.

deflationary conditions have definite downsides.

Yes gold does have a small monetary inflation that requires real work and investment to create and was not done by a simple keystroke for any amount. Bitcoin also has monetary inflation until 2140 but you know this.

Well it depends on the cause, if deflation is caused by a drop in demand it could be bad but if it a result of increased efficiency and productivity it is not bad. We see this is technology products like tvs and other electronics.

A natural recession is favourable over the manufactured boom and bust cycles of a fiat system. Created by injecting huge amounts of liquidity then cranking up interest rates when inflation gets “out of control”.

The problem as you know if there is no good price signal because of fiat everything is manipulated my increasing money supply, bail outs, mal investment, interest rates, and government intervention and regulation that favours the top at the expense of the general population.

ok, we're having two different conversations

Ok my bad

its fine

we're just both excited about the points we want to make 😂

🫂

I've done some thinking on this topic.

Not so sure a deflationary money is necessarily a bad thing...

Could you elaborate a bit more on what the definite downsides are? I think I know the direction you're going w/ this (delay of spending, economic depression), but would appreciate more of your thoughts

we all know that highly inflationary situations incentivize reckless investment

im thinking that "highly inflationary" is more than a 5% increase on monetary supply *over economic growth*

but the cure isn't to go straight deflationary

because of all the reasons (which are true reasons!)

with a known monetary policy (hard cap or not) a equilibrium will be reached.

i highly doubt that a purely deflationary environment (as with a hard cap on the # of units) is the best equilibrium for human flourishing.

and I think we are already seeing why that is.

The capped supply in #Bitcoin and more largely in #crypto is only beneficial as a marketing point to attract people that would invest on the basis that there is a limited supply. In reality, an unlimited supply with a pre-determined rate of inflation is healthier for the network but this goes against the beliefs of many people.

Why is deflation a bad thing?

Because it kills circulation and therefore economy

I don’t think it does. People don’t stop spending because they can buy more later. People want stuff now rather than later.

You can think all you want, and your thinking doesn’t have to agree with reality, and the other way around

Which reality are you referring to exactly?

Not that any currently exist anyway 🤣😭

Economy always exists as long as people trade, but is it growing or shrinking is yet another ball game 😂🤌🏻

BTC circulation, I mean

More like triangulation 😂🤣🤌🏻

that is true, too little participants to look like a circle

Monero? Monero.

1. I think you're underestimating how far Bitcoin prices can fall, during a fiat deflationary period. In that case, Bitcoin prices would completely collapse, if you just kept emitting the same amount over and over. NGU long-term, but not necessarily every month or every year. The volatility would be wild, to the downside.

2. The population will eventually begin to shrink, worldwide, and you'd have more and more money chasing fewer and fewer goods and services.

3. It's sort of the "pre-mine" effect for early adopters, who had to put up with crazy shit for years, so that would be a gigantic rug pull.

4. It reduces the hardness, so that you'd have to spend it faster or lose purchasing power.

5. No real point, as we have Lightning and lots of places after the decimal.

1. Not sure this is entirely relevant to the argument in “all Bitcoin economy”, but ok.

2. This is unknowable, and not what history predicts.

3. The idea is not to please everyone, especially the minority. The idea is to make an independent and universal currency that is stable and reliable (I am not an economist so take it with a grain of pepper)

4. That’s ok, that’s how money work, and their sole purpose is to support exchange of goods and services, not to keep as investment.

5. Division is not at question, anything is divisible into infinity, it doesn’t help with the circulation.

Maybe, as the hash hardness changes to maintain the stable rate, the production of new coins could change with number of inflowing transactions? 🤔🤔🤔

I have good thoughts about it . If people want to use it as daily transaction , then it should not be so rigid as fixed supply . Everyone can own bitcoin and everyone can transact in bitcoin cause there is new supply .

If man want to store value , man better invest in fixed assets .

For Bitcoin that the price so volatile , it would make sense to have security that there is new supply if needed to be released .

Bitcoin being hodled IS CIRCULATION!! People are choosing to use it as money, aka a store of value. When needed, they will spend it also.

I think your point that holding money is a use case for good money is what you're saying, but other concepts like velocity, for example, are affected by people who do not spend the money they hold.

That is where some of the mystery lies, and I don't think we're going to find out until we find out.

I think Bitcoin's ease of divisibility and other aspects are going to make it work well even though it is a deflationary asset.

I agree, the divisibility will make it keep working. We just will have smaller numbers like in previous centuries.

Economics is just people and division of labour. As long as this exists, money will keep circulating. If people hold and don't spend, it only increases the spending power and gives people more temption to spend to life upgrade.

The natural order of things is deflation according to Jeff Booth.

How does deflation hurt its adoption?

If people wish to hoard it, and people wish to buy it, then others will follow and also buy. Adoption.

It is not the desire to sell the Bitcoin that will create a liquid economy. It is the exchange for goods and services that is still being built out.

The people that produce the things that we really want daily, like groceries, energy, and transport, they don't yet accept not prefer bitcoin. Maybe in some areas there is an alternative market but they are few and far between.

When that grows, Bitcoin will more naturally flow too. A more spendable bitcoin provides the motivation behind keeping a more liquid wallet and depositing more fiat into that instead of keeping it in fiat.

Almost everyone is oblivious to the inflation going on when it is at a "2%" rate, yet you think they would not be with a 0% rate?

Even a fixed yearly supply would trend to 0% inflation. I think you are trying to tackle tomorrow's problem today. We already have inflation, if you are seeing a problem now, then the lack of inflation has not created that.

I see a lot of words but I don’t fully see the point you are trying to make. We are all solving future problems, because next second is the future too.

My point is that I don't see a problem. So I don't see a need to fix it. I think your premise is purely theoretical, and on top of that, based on a study of economics that is today heavily criticized by many of us.

“Hypothetically…” is literally the first word of the note. Many of you criticizing doesn’t mean anything in substantial data driven way. I want to see the hard data showing the effects one or the other way before I will adopt any argument, no matter how good or bad it is.

There are projects that have already employed this strategy. I think the best of which is probably Monero with its tail emission. There is no reason, in my opinion, for Bitcoin, to do this. If Monero's choice is the winner, we will move over there.

But changing Bitcoin's monetary policy mid-stream would be the fastest way to destroy this experiment. Satoshi may have been able to pull this off in the first year or two, but not anymore. No one could. Not even her/him/them.

Sounds like you're a statist.

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Deflation driven by productivity gains can be good for the economy. It raises purchasing power without triggering delays in production.

This is different from deflation due to nominal values of good falling (caused by demand falling)

Depends on the rate, and I am not sure current rate is compatible with the economical growth. Good points, all around. Neither deflation nor inflation is good for economy, unless the rate is stable and predictable

Yes. Predictable is key.

When each person’s bitcoin balance is large enough they will naturally start to spend it. Adoption takes time.

I think humanity has had a SOV problem, not as much a MOE problem.

Fiat works well as MOE, but don't try to save it for any meaningful amount of time. Higher layers on bitcoin (like ecash and lightning) are working to help bitcoin out-compete on MOE, but aren't there for all use-cases yet. We'll get there.

The only reason I hodl sats is because there is no better SOV. No other thing that has stronger stats in most (if not all) properties of money.

Would I be more willing to part with sats if their expected return was far lower on account of increased new issuance? Sure... But then I'd just be looking for a new SOV to preserve and grow my wealth over time.

you’re crossing wires with deflation, inflation and fixed.

yes, it is correct a programmed inflation would be better than our current, make it up as you go inflation.

gold’s inflation is tethered to natural law, the proof of work to dig it out of the ground.

that expansion of the money supply still reduces the purchasing power of savers and workers.

so yes, programming a measured natural inflation is better than no cap debasement, but not as good as perfect scarcity of a fixed supply

fixed doesn’t mean deflationary.

for btc to be deflationary, it would have to remove coins.

the gains of productivity actually flowing to people from the first free market is what makes prices deflationary.

btc enables this, so prices deflate, but that is completely distinct from btc deflating.

the btc money supply is not deflationary.

btc enables the first free market to operate, which means the benefits of productivity flow to you in the form of deflating prices.

might seem silly to some, but the precision in how we speak is imoortant because it avoids confusion.

#bitcoin

#21m

Fork it and create whatever you want. Just don’t expect me or anyone else to refer to your new thing as bitcoin.

At the core of all your questions, you're basically making arguments for Keynesian economics while Bitcoin is more of an Austrian experiment.

Just about everyone alive has been alive inside of a Keynesian system and concepts like "deflation causes hoarding" and that makes markets collapse are Keynsian Econ 101 arguments.

Frankly, I believe we're not going to know until the experiment plays out because it's all just theory, really. Even people's interpretation of history diverges along these same lines. The different schools of thoughts will blame different motive forces for things like the great depression.

Finally, Bitcoin does have some unique features, like it's practically infinite divisibility. This allows new monetary units to be deployed without diluting the total supply with an amount of frictionlessness that we've never seen before.

I had the thought a couple months ago of what if we had a silver to bitcoins gold. Something that could be mined with GPUs that was locked at 1% inflation yearly forever.

Would also be cool to have a third that was minable with CPU but not asics. I think of it because of the prepper mentality of 2 is one, thinking if their was something that happened to brick ASICs but not GPUs idk, probably dumb and less valuable, but would be interesting to have money tied directly to different chips that would encourage surplus compute be used when not processing actively

No circulation >> No fee >> No security >> No value 😬