Bitcoiners don’t actually want to separate money from the state, they wrap themselves in that rhetoric while everything they do orbits price, just to feel good and think they are better than others.

You’ll never hear them admit it outright, but every argument boils down to β€œprice, price, price”.

You will never hear them talking and using features on bitcoin, because is not the tech they appreciate, is the price movement.

It doesnt surprise me that ligthning wallets transactions are made 90% over custodials

When monerists talk about features like ring signatures, steath adresses, FCMP+, they deflect with β€œnetwork effect,” β€œinstitutional adoption,” or β€œBitcoin standard”, thin excuses for prioritizing FIAT gains over censorship resistance.

Presenting Bitcoin to outsiders as an NGU-driven get‑rich‑quick scheme invited the worst of society inside. Now deal with the consequences, you’ll have to live with your own poison.

You will never separate money from state because this choices and behavior!

Fake freedom figthers, all postures, no principles.

#bitcoin

#monero

#nostr

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You can't separate money from state. The point is to remove the middle man (banks/government) and their ability to make money from nothing. Its not about stopping them use money.

Remove middle man?

This last 5/6 years all i saw was bitcoiners adding middle mans, neo banks, custodials!

And worst of all, the majority of the usage of bitcoin today is through middle mans.

Of course you cant prevent states of using money they also use monero.

But building the middle man infra and praise you are removing it shows how a shitshow bitcoiners are doing

Happy to see Monero make superior tech. Let me know once done.

Already is

If bitcoin was attacked the way monero is, it was already death, bitcoin would not even survive if delisted from exchanges, you take price movement out and 90% would jump out!

"All is matter is the price"

We're not adding middle men. Middle men are adding Bitcoin.

Yet "Nothing Stops This Train" and that is the point.

I agree with you.

Yeah, and this will not end well πŸ™ˆ

Not well for whom?

For bitcoin

States and governments use money. What are you on about?

I want to separate money from other people.

get-rich-quick scheme invited the worst of society inside πŸ’  no lies detected! I've seen it first hand. hoping to meet the good ones

Getting more people to learn about separation of money and State as a principle, then understanding Bitcoin as the option, then learning to use tools to facilitate this is massive. It was never going to be as deep dive as you suggest. Bitcoin is for enemies too. However alot of people are waking up to the importance of bitcoin usage. We are very early. NGU BS is just human nature, people learn the deeper meaning as they spend time in this tech. I had no clue when i discovered Bitcoin. I’m still learning 8 years in

Your pretty words that you use to feel better with yourself dont change that in practice is not whst is happening.

You cant prevent govs from using the tools, but building the middle man and praising separation money from the state like jack from strike does are not compatible principles!

They dont spend time in this tech, your comunity usage is in middle mans.

No they dont learn the tech, you are wrong in that one.

Nothing you say is positive. Just use monero and stop worrying then. Leave us all to stew in our idiocy. I don’t feel as dark as you about it all. πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

You dont feel becsuse you dont care about censorship resistance money, is the only way to explain that.

With all that is happening if you feel all is going as expected, you are not here for what bitcoin was build for.

When did i say i didn’t care. There’s a battle going on, it was always going to happen. You need to step up with solutions not denegrste others. Your attack is aimed at basic Bitcoiners, there are many more advanced Bitcoiners working On solutions. Be one of those

It takes years to truly understand the true revolution of Bitcoin after a life of programmed Central banking slavery.

They will care when personally affected (like fiat shitcoiners).

Bitcoin and even moreso Monero are a (one way) journey. There is no going back to fiat lalala or Bitcoin maxi land.

Why do you have a LN wallet?

Honestly, and this might not be what you want to hear, but I think abolishing the state has always been a very unrealistic idea.

Reforming the state is a much better idea.

Lately I've been diving into UBI and I now have more hope for an actual good use of the State.

The problem is that if you put yourself into very opositional/dualistic positions, life will feel very tough. Especially regarding the State. People that are truly anti-State are very few in society.

I know that you cant abolish state, you cant leave a hole in power because someone will take it.

Maybe this migth not be what you want to hear, but reforming the state is a very unrealistic idea.

If you get inside of government to make it you will end frustrate yourself or get corrupted.

More realistic way to see it is dont give a fuck what laws they apply and use what mskes you grant it.

And yeah im anti-state, thats what happens to you when you feel in real life what corruption on courts is directly with you. One thing is seeing the corruption, other is living it. But the game is like this.

UBI based on surveillance ID + printing CBDC dashboard numbers or UBI based on surveillance ID + programmable theft (tax)?

UBI will never work at a global level. Similar concepts can work within families or smaller communities where people know and trust each other.

I didnt catch the UBI thing, but now that i see is insane what i listen. Are you in favor of UBI?

Tell me i listen it wrong, because i cant belive ideas like this coming from bitcoiners...

UBI would only really work with a fiat CBDC. You have to know who is getting the capital, and there has to be mechanisms in place to make sure that they do. There's actually a better way.

Universal Basic Assets, basically a dividend on civilization itself. Can be done with the current miner systems, or with Lightning Network yield. It requires everyone to have an understanding of how basic financing works, with income, assets, expenses and debt. Instead of just an income stream that helps cover some or most expenses, force people to be responsible by giving them assets that generate that income stream, and the goal is to build their collection of assets so that the income pays the expenses for the life they want to live.

The only way to reform the state at a global scale is by hitting the reset button. Every single nation state government is corrupt, to the extreme. Whether you consider yourself to be far left or far right, authoritarian or democratic, collectivist or individualist, the existing government institutions are failing us all, and there is nothing that can be done from the inside of those systems to fix them. They must all be destroyed and replaced.

Actually it works with bitcoin also, and they are paving the road as i see.

What are you seeing that tells you that?

If they applied that to fiat, nobody would be able to touch a penny.

But as we dont live in if's, we need to look what the reality is

True enough. I've seen conflicting messages on whether LN transactions are capable of being tracked like that. If they can be, then it's probably something that will be attempted. All that would do is build an underground market, and I don't think it would last forever.

LN is trackable at state level as is bro, its not trackble if you are not at that level. Read how here πŸ‘‡

https://muoitran.com/publications/revelio.pdf

But as we see, they will build a different system of custodial/non-custodial wallets that comply with KYC/AML, who dont comply will not be able to inter operate with their system.

This will happen like this. You go to a store to shop something or online, you do the transaction if your funds fail BIS they are blocked and than send to the Bitcoin reserve fund that you all asked for.

This is the way that states figure it out how to steal your bitcoin to put on reserves bro!

Dont you catch it?

nostr:npub1yxp7j36cfqws7yj0hkfu2mx25308u4zua6ud22zglxp98ayhh96s8c399s are you familiar with this paper? Any thoughts?

He is a clown

Who are you? Are you a developer?

Just a curious regulary dude that doesnt trust and verify

I have not seen it yet, thank you for the link. I will try to remember to give it a look later.

BTW I do not claim lightning is untraceable; only that if both systems are used well, lightning is harder to trace than monero.

nostr:nprofile1qqsgz084hwhkwk4mrmegd894ta5cpx7f864h0ruvggm9a3j7zja5asgppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qythwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnswf5k6ctv9ehx2ap0qyt8wumn8ghj7etyv4hzumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtctlan98 "BTW I do not claim ligthning is untraceable"

It is very easy for monero people to hear me say lightning has better privacy than monero and infer I must think it is untraceable. But that does not follow. Lightning is traceable too, it's just harder to do

Monero was never traced

Chainalysis traced this monero transaction: e4f525b214ef7310b53dd2e81be42801c7ee1a7c259ac0a093d813b493a788a8

The sender was: 98c88d7d6cee177fdd675763a51c451f36a3de026607fa5d7d1ed1eded0f5a1d

The recipient was: 2e9598dc6d1af0907297b395e71ff4cc7f38818893ccc90f7ff40fbec6820699

They also identify the change-recipient: 838bdcee6c15000a259f9f58172794a1a1bd132750f29aee1ed33bd7de94c85b

Then they follow the change to this tx: a5202cb022921d624d0e9a40a9d7e0cdc4d9cfeb0be11501414fe5a9c0cdd2a8

They got the sender's ip address from the fact that (1) when spending the change output created by the above tx (a520…d2a8), the target forgot to use a VPN (2) his wallet broadcasted the resulting transaction via a chainalysis spy node.

Having obtained the target’s ip address, Chainalysis sent it to police in Columbia, who arrested the target, allegedly a drug dealer. You can view the trace from 34:55---36:51 of this video: https://v.nostr.build/D4Nzp22vRF35IRnz.mp4

In an environment they created with wallets that they know runninh on corrupted nodes.

Real world scenario is 0!

All that takes privacy seriously run their own node through tor or i2p.

Good luck trying to trace my Monero in real world

They didn't create that environment, they were hired to trace a Columbian drug dealer's monero as part of a criminal investigation. It was a real world case.

I was thinking you were talking about the one as i explained.

But here it wasnt monero that failed dude and you know this.

His monero got traced, that's a failure

The trace was due to no fault of the target's

It was monero's fault he got traced

He forgot to use even VPN and is moneros fault that he was traced πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

That was the transaction *afterwards*

The one I highlighted, he *did* use a VPN and *still* got traced

What should he have done differently?

You are disonest and you know it

It’s too bad about monero failing, but no need to take out inadequacies on a superior form of money like bitcoin. Just get back up, dust yourself off and take the L like an adult.

Monero is not failing dude.

Bitcoin was the one that failed in be sovereign!

You'll have to do better than accusations, friend

You can see in the video where chainalysis looks up the ip address for the above-highlighted transaction. It is at timestamp 35:37---35:55 and they clearly show it belongs to a vpn

If I was dishonest about this, my dishonesty would show up quite clearly in the video. Just point to a part where I say X and the reality is not X.

Use tor + own node

It's our task to build secure environments for anybody. This might mean that wallets care not nearly enough. WalletOS that does one job might be necessary for most people that are no opsec pros.

That is the same to say the dude sell drugs to the undercovered cop and get caught.

Monero did his job, the dude was the one that failed

β€œBut as we dont live in if's, we need to look what the reality is”

Posts a paper full of ifs.

β€œMonero was never traced”

Video posted of tracing monero.

The ones posting if are you and you know it, actually everyone see what you guys are trying to do

I don't exactly think compliant businesses would bother to cross-check your payment against a list of "dirty" coins/origins. instead I would guess that they would take lightning payments through a compliant LSP who is extremely picky about their channel partners. you wouldn't be able to pay for the merchandise in the first place, unless you sent it directly from another compliant LSP. it would operate like a whitelist.

They will use both ways probably

I'm honestly astonished that bitcoin maxis haven't figured out the implications of lightning nodes obviously falling into the category of money transmitter. it's not like we were warning them about that for the past 8 years. businesses have never been allowed to receive payments from non-compliant money transmitters.

bitcoin maxis are champions of the cope. they confused wishful thinking with game theory sometime in 2012-2013 and it only got worse ever since.

we call it the smtpification of lightning.

I do see what you are saying. And if that's the way things go, then we'll be in a dystopian nightmare, and I would expect the civilization to crash and burn and humanity to go extinct. If that's how you feel about the future, that's on you.

I choose to believe that we will figure out how to survive and thrive. What you are describing is already part of the world we live in, it's called the 4th Amendment. We have the right to be secure in our papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, and this shall not be violated and no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized. This applies to day, to all financial transactions and records of communications. If legal authority believes that a crime has been committed, they can search and bring what they find to a court of law. If we don't believe in that anymore, then we have given up on nation states and we should prepare for hell on Earth. I'm not ready to go there.

Man, im putting on the table facts of what will be! Is not a matter of pessimism or optimism, is the roadmap of the reality rigth in front of your eyes. You and all close them like you did when snowden dumped the files..

I already jump out and my choices of life make me be confortable to know when the time comes im prepared to figth.

Your constitution is good but as i see americans in general dont have ball to use it.

Your gov is doing shit for years, is not sovereign, has another country as priority and you have done nothing about it, they use and abuse of the power they have again and again

The USA ceased to exist as a constitutionally limited democratic republic in November of 1963. That was when we switched over to being an Empire. The voters no longer have control of our government. And most of us are in denial about that fact.

Hold up.

Your lasts reply cited the 4th amendment as if it offered any real protection.

Then your next note points out how the constitutionally limited democratic republic ceased to exist 50+ years ago???

So i guess those 4th amendment protections mean absolutely nothing...

On the other hand they can't handle doggie coin which has gotten the best returns over the course of its existence ("price")

Don't worry, all the get-rich-quick guys quickly leave Bitcoin for Shitcoins

No, they use bitcoin for it, because backed by state + ETFs profits more than shitcoins.

That is not my impression tbh

it's not the degens it's the suitcoiners

I use a non custodial lightning wallet (raspiblitz). But doing that isn't easy. You've got to spend at least 100 dollars, probably four hours sorting it out and setting it up, then download the entire blockchain. Then learn how to use it. It takes money, time, effort and its definitely not for everyone.

separation of money and jews

damn

Bitcoin is neither the ETFs, the treasury companies, the Strikes, the politicians, the influencers not the stablecoins. Exactly the same as bitcoin never was the ICOs, the VCs, the exchanges, the lambos, the NFTs or the influencers.

Bitcoin is the noderunners, the solo miners, the FOSS builders, the educators, the local adoption facilitators. This makes bitcoin unstoppable and this is where we win eventually. In time. All the rest is just inevitable noise.

But the purchasing power of bitcoin IS important, because we are all incentivised to defend our savings with these efforts. It is money eventually, isn't it?

Savings follow freedom.

Without freedom what are your savings worth. Now apply the concept to a bigger scale and you understand why cypherpunks fight for freedom over pirchasing power. Simply because one follows the other.

I agree with you. I just think that the original post is an unfair generalisation. There are many freedom fighters in bitcoin. Enough to defend it. And defending it is in my opinion the most important part. The cypherpunks are just not as loud as the rent-seekers and scammers.

How naive

Well said!

A lot of people are following their most basic human instinct - to amass reserves and power - and therefore bitcoin is doomed?

If you build any system that you expect to have more than two users I think you'll start running into this problem

A tool can be done neutral and retarded proof..

Retarded proof might be possible! Neutral? I guess you could probably achieve some other shade of it than what exists in bitcoin but some kind of god or AI overlord would need to get involved over which humans have zero influence whatsoever to get to what you seem to be implying

also cypherpunk systems can't be adopted by normies prematurely, it completely ruins them.

Truth

FWIW, showing a custodial lightning address on Nostr is *more* private than exposing one's lightning node (via bolt12, lnurl or ln address). Using Coinos pseudonymous wallet for zaps is totally fine. There are other non-KYC alternatives should Coinos rug my $1 worth of sats. 90% of LN transactions are these little zaps, so your math checks out.

Of course it checks out, and shows nobody is using bitcoin in reality 98% spam on L1 + 90% zaps on nostr, on LN πŸ˜‚

This is nuts how nobody sees this πŸ˜‚

If you can't see LN payments, it does not mean they don't happen. Retail MoE adoption is shit, I agree, except maybe in some poorest countries. But same can be said about Monero, besides the drugs of course. Because Monero was specifically designed to protect the funds' receiver. LN is very good for sender's privacy, so a natural choice for VPN, VPS, eSIM, etc providers. The rest of the world is stuck in compliant tax accounting and convenient VISA tap-to-pay.

https://xmrbazaar.com/ not just darknet markets. btc has nothing comparable

Thanks for the link. Now compare XMR map for Europe with BTC:

the issue is the tax accounting. With bitcoin it's an insufferable situation and maxi's beg daddy gobberment to help. monero isn't asking permission it's using code to protect the user.

Yes. The definition of black market.

Circular economy you mesn

Black market was a name invented by govs to sare the sheeps

I was replying to Kyle who said "not just darknet markets". Circular economy means some isolated community. Not how the world is generally. A retailer in almost every country must follow the rules or go in the hiding.

if we full dystopia the world will be small isolated circular economies

black markets are the only ones left functioning when government reaches it's final form.

not paying tax doesn't make it a black market. by that logic every contractor taking cash is a drug dealer equivalent lol

Believe it or not, this is already so in some EU countries like Sweden.

you and I both can understand the difference regardless of what some euro government has to say about it

LN blinded paths will protect the receiver soon

ln is also insufferable to use without custodians. no kyc custodians will hunted down as the centralized money transmitters that they are

What? It is trivial to run a lightning node. Just swap local balance into BTC or LBTC instead of closing channels and taking those UTXOs to a CEX.

why would you say this. it's a complete lie. https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/ln-blackpill/

What is this collection of links? What is a lie?

the ease of use for a sovereign LN node

The only way to learn something is to do it yourself. Truth fucking coin info lol. You won't get rich as a routing node, but to receive LN bitcoin you just need to buy one inbound channel.

who's talking about getting rich? where talking about making it easy for people to be free. XMR is just easier. I don't need an online server running to receive payments I don't have to set anything up at all really.

XMR is not easier. My pi4 could not run monerod, not enough compute. But it can run bitcoind, lnd and tor all together easily. Trusting others to run a node for you is not sovereignty.

where talking about normie average joe construction worker here and your bring up the capabilities of a pi4? not relevant. relying on a node is far more sovereign than relying on a custodian

We were talking about merchant acceptance with sovereignty. Average construction worker is paid clean salary and can use Strike.

are they? why are all the immigrants sending cash to Mexico at the Mexican market in the USA?

Those should probably send USDT from Trust wallet, bought for cash p2p face to face. At least this if what I see immigrants doing in Europe via Telegram channels.

Sovereignty and Strike are opposites

of course. sovereignty has a steep learning curve.

you're using a custodial node on your nostr profile if it was so easy why not have your own?

Same for the world:

Brother... You have been deluded hardcore. Get a grip. Or ride xmr to zero. Your money is no good if no one else wants it.

Is the only money wanted in reality, and you csn verify it

"#Bitcoin you dumbfuck" - nostr:nprofile1qqsww0g2zc8kxx3cshqrlezjrv6dmm2wkldpvrhlcdygnxpggwj2xvspzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgtcqth95a

98% Spam on L1, 90% nostr zaps on L2, incredible to see how hard people want bitcoin

You just like to make numbers up huh?

Verify

I do... That's why I know you're just making shit up...

Verify again

if you have principles, you can buy the future you want to see. that's all you can do really. if you have no principles you can buy what you think will go up. i definitely don't want to see daddy wef finklestein's preferred future.

"I can't argue make a good argument for monero so I'm going to just assign motive to any detractors"

Hfsp

Have fun staying private?

Yes, I feel quite safe that my Bitcoin from early on are now protected by default privacy on Monero rather than being out in the open and monitored by chainanalysists.

You gunna be poor in not too long. Tell me, how much mulvad time did I buy with my last lightning transaction? It should be so easy right?

If i worked to NSA i would answer you in seconds

No... No you wouldn't. Because you can't...

Y'all should really stop talking out of your ass.

I don't care and I am not the one you want to protect yourself from. By the way: Mullvad is a honeypot.

Dude monero is literally getting shaken because of a Shitcoin called Qubic making it more rewarding for miners to mine with them since coinbase rewards on Monero is bad and making them gain a good chunk of network hashrate. CPU mining was only good to boot strap in the beginning not as your long term defense. Also can you tell me who are all the people who transacted in the most recent Bitcoin block? Also tell me who I sent Bitcoin on lightning to.

Don't mention the tail emmisions (read inflation) they had to add to try to fix that a little over a year ago. Monero dead in the water man.

Oh dang I forgot about the infinite supply and never ending inflation. 🀣

More scarce than you coin rn.

Inflation tens to 0%

Secured blockchain forever with previsibility

This sounds bad? πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

Inflation is bad.

0,03% inflation trending to 0 is a big big evil πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

Monero isn't scarce because the supply is infinite. There is no cap which makes it bad for saving and spending. Bitcoins fixed supply is finite and it isn't going to be worth less because of it.

You hava less monero on sale than bitcoin, that makes it more scarce, and even has less coin mined than bitcoin in our lifetime dude.

Inflation on monero trends to 0 with previsibility, monero hss less inflation even than gold

If you have tail emissions then inflation is never at 0%. There's always a guarantee of the supply always increasing.

Also there's a difference between being liquid and illiquid. You can have a asset with such little supply and two people holding it and one of them owning 90% of the assets bumping the price to sell it so high. But you won't be able to sell it for that high price because there isn't people to sell it to. So you'd have to sell it for way lower to the one person there is to sell it to.

The inflation on Monero is now 0,03% and going down every 2 min

Currency shouldn't be scarce.

Currency is worthless unless it has scarcity... Scarcity is not liquidity. Bitcoin is infinity liquid and ultimately scarce...

Monero doesn't work like Bitcoin and does not matter it's value. The only thing that matters is that coins are not traceable

Shaken? Did this looks like shaken?

We are wining, and they cant do nothing because the cant reach the 51%, so they selfish mine some blocks.

If i worked in NSA i would answer you in seconds.

Looks pretty shaken to me when you use a real unit of account...

Dude Monero isn't on that many exchanges for people to sell. You are forced to hodl unless you are able to find someone who wants to buy your monero or an exchange that accepts it. Its not very liquid.

They think it's real money because they can exchange it for illicit goods. Except... That's about the only thing they can exchange it for...

If you are dumb and dont even know how to use it is with you

Monero beats bitcoin usage in white markets by far

Even then they still have to trust the darknet admin to hold their coins for them. So might as well move to Cashu and have full anonymity using Bitcoin and E-Cash. The admin won't know who has what, but can still get the commission for hosting the marketplace.

Monero bros are just in denial that there's more flexible tools that are faster than monero and more accessible.

You are just dumb

Probably vaxxed also

Look at the monerotard not have anymore counter arguments and resort to insults like the stupid people they are.

I am not vaxxed either lmao.

Ok only last one option so

Monero DEX have more liquidity than Bitcoin DEX dude

Using price as an argument now? πŸ€”

Man, if this 51% attack was a real treath price would be 99% down in minutes thats why i use price to prove that is doesnt shaked.

Yestarday was the worst day of the attack, ive been paying attention to my node logs to see how this goes ahead everyday, and we are winning so bad over qubic, they are shooting their feet with this selfish mining attack.

The dark elites will always win, as long as they hack human behavior trough subtle social engineering, while most people can't notice it.

Bitcoin community has been obviously hijacked and social engineered to accept all kinds of corporate bullshit that contradicts original values and purpose.

Now the next phase will probably be something like: We need to change Bitcoin' Consensus Algorithm to something more "environmentally friendly" . And maxis will accept cause "muh profits"

Of course it is, the documents of the approval of Bitcoin ETFs say that clearly.

* through

What are you on about?

jaded much

Your face is literally jaded

πŸ˜‚πŸ‘Œ

AK takes jabs like some teen cunt with RBF.

gfy yuppie

Can you point me where the state is in controll of Bitcoin? As far as i am aware its just states using BTC...and...well..you know, hard to stop a state from using BTC since censorship resistance was the whole point.

Come to think of it, States are basically the #1 market fit when it comes to censorship resistance; you know, with geo-politics, actuall fucking armies, sanctions and shit going on on that level.

And it so happens that me, lonely individual get to enjoy that same censorship resistance, pretty wild when you think of itπŸ€”.

Bitcoin really is awesome, isn't itπŸ˜‰

You dont need to exercise power to have it.

Behind closed doors they are all friends.

Bitcoin is not censorship resistant because mining centralization.

Bitcoin is not censorship resistant you say.

Sorry, i was not aware, silly me.

Yes it isnt, mining centralization makes you censorable, let the KYC/AML laws get approved and you will see how controlable your pools are.

you are hanging around with BTC investors, not bitcoiners.

Suitcoiners you mean? πŸ˜‚