I'm deeply concerned about what I saw from CCC this year, though CCC is just one example of a broader pattern. A journalist hacked a white supremacy dating site, extracted all data, and destroyed their infrastructure live on stage. The crowd celebrated. This seems to be the direction society is choosing, and I'm not sure it's leading anywhere good.

I need to say this clearly: I despise white supremacy. But I'm not writing about them. I'm writing about what's happened to hacker culture, and what this approach actually accomplishes.

The hacking ethos used to be about resisting power itself, not about wielding power against the right targets. We opposed surveillance, censorship, and centralized control as structural problems, not as things that were bad only when used by the wrong people. The principle was simple: concentrate power anywhere and it will be abused, so build systems that distribute it.

Somewhere along the way, that changed. "hacker culture" has become increasingly collectivist, increasingly comfortable with using force and control as long as it serves the correct ideology. The logic is seductive: we're the good guys, we're targeting bad people, therefore our use of power is justified. But that's exactly how every authoritarian movement justifies itself.

Here's what nobody seems willing to ask: what did this actually accomplish? I'd never heard of this white supremacy dating site before. It was probably a handful of people in their own corner of the internet, doing nothing of consequence. Now they're martyrs. Now they have a story about persecution by the powerful tech elite. Now they have proof that "the system" is out to destroy them, which is exactly the narrative that radicalizes people further.

This is basic human psychology. When you attack people's identity and destroy their spaces, you don't make them reconsider their beliefs. You confirm their worldview. You give them grievance. You push them deeper into their ideology and make them more willing to fight back. Every authoritarian regime understands this: if you want to eliminate an ideology, persecution is the worst possible approach. But it feels satisfying, and that's what matters to the crowd.

What we're doing is pouring gasoline on cultural and racial tensions. We're creating cycles of retaliation where each side sees the other as an existential threat that must be destroyed. The white supremacists see this hack as proof they're under attack. They'll radicalize further, recruit more effectively, and be more willing to use violence because they have a persecution narrative that's actually true. And when they retaliate, the other side will use that as justification for more aggressive action. This is how tribal conflicts escalate into wars.

Hacker culture used to understand that the tools we normalize using will eventually be used against us. When we cheer for infrastructure destruction targeting racists today, we're establishing that infrastructure destruction based on ideology is legitimate. What happens when the political winds shift? What happens when the people with power decide that anarchists, or activists, or minority communities are the "dangerous ideology" that needs to be hacked and destroyed? There is no principle left to appeal to, because we've already agreed that power is fine as long as we like the target.

The shift toward collectivist thinking, toward "solidarity" as the highest value, toward celebrating power when it's used against acceptable targets, this creates exactly the tribal dynamics that lead to conflict. When your identity is bound up in your collective, and the collective has decided who the enemy is, questioning the tactics becomes betrayal. Dissent becomes treason. And anyone pointing out that you're creating the very cycles of violence you claim to oppose gets treated as an enemy themselves.

Hackers used to be about building systems assuming those systems would be used against us, so we made them resilient and distributed. That required uncomfortable consistency: defending infrastructure neutrality even for people we despised, because the alternative was endless cycles of retaliation. We understood that you can't build a free society by normalizing the destruction of spaces you disagree with, because eventually someone will disagree with you.

The question isn't whether white supremacists are bad. Obviously they are. The question is whether we've become so focused on winning the current battle that we can't see we're creating the conditions for endless war. And whether we've forgotten that the point of hacker culture was to build systems that made such wars unnecessary, not to become better warriors in them.

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These are good questions, but if you hadn't noticed nostr isn't super intellectual. There are a few people here with an actual desire to debate big questions, but not many. Most are here to hurl insults at people who will never hear them in order to impress other people that will.

Vlad here is one to follow, though best to avoid the mumble-grunt replies.

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My post wasn't much about Nostr, more about broader authoritarian trend I'm seeing across "hacker" communities like CCC or tech ones, like ActivityPub or AT Protocol, and in US/European culture generally.

Nostr may not be super intellectual, but from that perspective, it seems relatively okay compared to the others (that may be because its just small, and very monocultural).

I mean for debates in general, be they on changes in hacking norms or anything else. These days not so many good ones, which is a shame since you have all this space. (The no character limit is one very nice thing about nostr.)

Though in months gone by there were some good debates on interop and the various computer science problems that nostr bumps into every time it moves more than 1cm in any direction.

It's simple, anywhere leftists congregate ends up like that.

They language and thought-police, and if you disagree you're a nazi.

They don't kill you because you're a nazi, they call you a nazi so they can kill you.

Now, about this alleged "white supremacy" website I know nothing about it, but from the get go it's already suspicious, "white supremacy" generally being a leftist euphemism for "disempower white people and if you talk back you recursively are that which we accuse you of".

I saw zero evidence from this " journalist", only leftist language and slander.

But fine, let's say it was the real deal. The one in a million.

Then the logic elsewhere in the thread here applies. Before they were unknowns, now they are martyrs.

And those nerds who think they are the morality police and who seem to believe they get to tell everyone else what is acceptable and what isn't grow a bit more hubristic.

nostr:npub1mznweuxrjm423au6gjtlaxmhmjthvv69ru72t335ugyxtygkv3as8q6mak I've followed your work for years. I'm genuinely grateful for your journalism, especially your defense of privacy, censorship-resistance and Tornado Cash.

That's why I'm confused seeing you say "more of this please" about the ccc incident. It seems counterproductive and contradictory to everything you've stood for. If infrastructure destruction based on ideology is acceptable, what principle protects Tornado Cash users, privacy tools, or any other infrastructure that powerful actors decide is "dangerous"?

I genuinely don't understand how this aligns with the principles you've defended before. Can you help me understand what I'm missing?

You aren't missing anything.

Virtue signalling is something everyone falls for..

It doesn't come down to much more than White People Bad, which is socialist propaganda. People like Lola internalize it and forget that it's reprehensible.

I like white people

Jews are white too

Thanks for asking, I think it‘s a good question.

The difference is that I would never support a government doing such a thing, but that does not mean that i do not support direct action against people who attempt to assume authority over others.

Example 1: Germany has been considering banning the AFD - i dont think thats a good idea, but i do support every person who sabotages their operations.

Example 2: I‘ve been working on an article about EU sanctions on free speech, which include both very left and very right wing figures. While I would support people making the decision to not platform them, I do not support their government censorship.

I think its a very important distinction thats missing in your above analysis, much of which I agree with by the way.

Another point i think you are missing is the paradox of tolerance: if we remain tolerant towards those who are intolerant, there will quickly be no more tolerance left; its pretty much what killed all anarchist movements around the world, who over and over again teamed up with the commies, only for the commies to turn around and sell them out.

> over and over again teamed up with the commies, only for the commies to turn around and sell them out.

This is exactly what is happening on CCC and you are applauding it. Sorry, but what you are saying is not consistent at all.

I actually dislike and publicly criticize the CCC - havent attended the event in the last 4 years; that doesnt mean that I can‘t like specific projects that are presented there.

You say you want to understand my arguments, yet you over-exaggerate and dramaticize them into things I never said, so this isn‘t very fun for me xx

It really makes no sense, criticize the CCC but applaud one of the most intolerant talk, which is literally about coming to someone else property and burning it (plus expose all people there). These actions are precisely what making CCC more socialist, collectivist and tribal.

Again, you do not seem to understand the principle of direct action and continue to throw everything you disagree with into a bucket you don‘t like

Not very intellectually stimulating

I understand what direct action means. Cypherpunks build cryptographic tools as direct action against authoritarians who are actually oppressing people. Direct action makes sense against those committing violence against others or destroying their property.

BUT direct action is not meant to be used against people who simply hold different opinions and aren't factually harming anyone. Going to someone's property to burn things and expose attendees isn't targeting oppressors - it's targeting people for their ideas and associations.

I can use direct (non-violent) action against anyone I dislike. If you disagree with this you must have a government to arbitrate, which voids your „i am an anarchist“ self-proclamation. Hope that helps!

I think we're getting somewhere.

To me, breaking into someone else's property (server) and burning documents (deleting) sounds like a violent act. Even if you had an open door, I still see it as violence and aggression.

> I can use direct (non-violent) action against anyone I dislike

Sure, same as operators of white-suprematist racist websites. The point is when it becomes violent. I haven't seen any violence from those who do whitedating, whereas I do see it on the other side.

Okay. Since you identify as an anarcho-capitalist, letd use some language of the philosophy you follow to maybe help you understand.

Rothbard defined private property as anything that is a scarce resource.

While a server is considered private property under this framework, data is not - first because it is words, second because it can be indefinitely copied, backedup, and redistributed.

Without getting into whether we find it justified to break into someone else‘s server or not you state that this is violence, while I believe that this is a pretty insane distortion of the term which will only lead us toward a future where words no longer have any meaning.

Its just one of the many ways in which many ancaps are inherently nonsensical: you claim words should be free and do not hurt anyone, then claim that deleting a spreadsheet is a criminal offense (which both, btw, are nothing but words).

Second, you can argue that the founder of the site engaged in direct action, and i dont have a problem with the site existing per se. But action always reaps a reaction - and in this case one that i support. Crying about it just makes you sound like a sore loser.

Fyi, since such data is usually backedup, Im sure the site is already running elsewhere again.

I think you're conflating two different things. I'm also against intellectual property and digital monopolies on ideas or information. But breaking into someone's server isn't about copying information - it's about violating their physical infrastructure and their autonomy over their own tools.

The server is physical property that someone built and maintains. Breaking into it violates their control over their own equipment and destroys their work. This isn't about state-defined "property rights" - it's about basic respect for the boundary between your domain and someone else's. If I break into your house and burn your diary, the problem isn't copyright on your words - it's that I invaded your space and destroyed what you created.

I don't know or care if it's legally criminal, but it's clearly unethical. Your "data can be infinitely copied" argument would justify any digital intrusion - no privacy, no security, no boundaries. Anyone with technical skills could do whatever they want to anyone else's systems.

For me, real anarchism means voluntary cooperation and mutual respect for autonomy - not "whoever can hack wins".

Sorry my guy, but this isn‘t going anywhere as you continue to misrepresent what i say to fit your narrative. Not fun and not productive 👋

whoa whoa whoa whoa

You're trying to say that because the server is digital that accessing it and changing it without the rightful owners consent is NOT violence?!

where exactly is this boundary that we cross where the word violence becomes meaningless?

because it sounds like you've already made that call and it's ALREADY meaningless.

I wonder what the response would be if a publishing house wiped Anna's archive.

"it was just words and therefore non-scarce. so it doesn't violate the non-aggression principle."

You can use any action against anyone you dislike, and without a government to arbitrate, if you can defend yourself, you get away with it. Someone disagreeing with what I just said appeals to a government by your logic.

Destruction of property is violent.

She’s a women, she’s virtually incapable of being consistent.

The paradox of tolerance (in spite of some infographics) relates to discourse, not beliefs. You should not tolerate the free speech of those who do not tolerate free speech.

If someone or some group intended to force their beliefs on others that would meet Popper's threshold, but those practicing freedom of association would not.

“If we remain tolerant of the intolerant,” which is a wildly intolerant statement.

Who are you to decide what should be tolerated?

Should we all be under the thumb of forced multiculturalism from talmudic jews?

According to you everyone is allowed freedom of association except for white people.

You’re an intolerant cunt bitch pretending to have a monopoly on what’s tolerated.

Thanks for engaging, L0la. I appreciate the discussion, but I think there's a fundamental flaw in this framework.

You say they "assume authority over others", but I watched the journalist's videos. I saw a few small websites where racists meet each other in their corner. There was zero factual danger from these websites. I saw swastikas, extremist people expressing opinions - sure, abhorrent opinions - but just opinions. They weren't exercising authority over anyone. They were organizing among themselves.

For me, it seems the opposite - CCC (which is de facto an institution at this point) and these hackers are the ones assuming authority over others. They decided which groups deserve infrastructure and which don't. They exercised power to destroy spaces they disapprove of. That's assuming authority.

With the same logic, we could now attack "black-only" sites, or any nationalist sites, or any group organizing around identity. The principle "they're trying to assume authority" is so broad it justifies attacking almost anyone you disagree with.

Democracy itself is fundamentally about "assuming authority over others." That's what voting is - 51% assuming authority over the other 49%. If you're really against people assuming authority over others, it would be far more consistent to support sabotaging all democratic political parties, not just the ones you personally don't like.

The "paradox of tolerance" doesn't solve this. Everyone believes they're fighting intolerance. White supremacists think they're defending against forces trying to destroy them. This framework and theirs seems structurally identical - both claim the right to preemptively attack because the other side is "intolerant". But this is exactly how tribal conflicts escalate into endless cycles of retaliation.

Untrue imo. These people arent „organizing amongst themselves“, they are organizing against other people - and thats the key difference.

I have no problem with white people who only want to date white people or black people who only want to date black people.

But there is a problem when that convulges with other people are inferior and need to be dominated because they do not share our beliefs/identity/etc.

Sorry, but you're basically saying it's legitimate to destroy infrastructure based on what people believe (that others are inferior), not what they do. This is pure ideology policing. Who decides when dating preferences "convulge with" beliefs about inferiority?

Many people think certain political ideologies inherently view others as inferior. Communists think capitalists view workers as inferior. Capitalists think communists view individualists as inferior. Religious people think atheists view believers as inferior. Bitcoin maximalists think shitcoiners as inferior. All of these groups "organize against other people". Does any of this justify hacking their infrastructure?

These websites weren't organizing attacks. They weren't planning violence (I really haven't seen any evidence). They were expressing abhorrent opinions in their own corner.

I think you havent watched the entire talk on the site‘s founder and the people who were on this app - who base their beliefs on eugenicism (if you dont know what that is, you may want to look that one up).

Equating this to shitcoiners, religion, etc is just nonsene, sorry.

And yes, i do think that communists hacking capitalists who exploit workers is a good thing, just as it is a good thing that capitalists hack communists who want to eliminate individual rights.

That’s not „ideology policing“ - it is supporting the freedom of taking direct action against something you dont believe in, which is a right everyone should have access to in a democracy.

> the freedom of taking direct action against something you dont believe in

If direct action means pointing it out, explaining it, cursing it, removing these people from your property... then I totally agree. Having a stupid opinion is also freedom. But this goes much further. This was an aggressive attack on someone else's infrastructure, a violation of the non-aggression principle. Basically, the exact behavior we want to fight against.

So I don't see the difference between this and what the NSDAP did in Weimar. If racists were banning Jews from going to their own shops, publicly criticizing them, then ok... But the problem started when they started aggressively using violence to impose this on others.

*blinks*

Ok then buddy

You're not one of us, Lola. Based on what you've said here, you have no morals. We're not anarchists to be criminals. Clearly you are.

Correct

A dating site, strictly limited in its capacity, is simply people choosing who to date based on their own personal criteria. You say you support that. It doesnt appear that you do.

Here's a question you might want to answer: what's wrong with thinking others are inferior? When one asks this question, automatically it is assumed that they are sympathetic or defending those ideas, so I feel the need to point out that I am not doing that, I genuinely hold no love for white supremacy or any racial supremacy. But its a valid question to explore. What exactly is wrong with someone thinking they're better than others based on some immutable criteria? I can see how acting violently towards others is, but just thinking they're better, choosing who they associate with etc, what do you think is morally wrong with that?

Like I get you think this will make the Nazis and pedos upset, but those people will do bad stuff if they are upset or not.

Removing one of their safe spaces isn't going to make them anymore dangerous than they already were

Everyone should read this in its entirety. Too many people cheer for what feels good in the moment. Think beyond the first level consequence of actions...

"You can never build a free society by normalizing the destruction of spaces you disagree with"

All this is preamble to endless war because everyone is justified and righteous in their own minds.

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Maybe that hacker culture have been infiltrated by left?

I'd say the state. Not much difference, though... So yeah.

Hacker culture has always been left and anti authoritarian.

The right wing hackers are government employees

"I'd never heard of this white supremacy dating site before. It was probably a handful of people in their own corner of the internet, doing nothing of consequence. Now they're martyrs."

- i'd never heard of

- was probably a handful of people

- their own corner

- doing nothing of consequence

- now they're martyrs

let's go over it again:

- i'd never heard of

- was probably a handful of people

- their own corner

- doing nothing of consequence

- now they're martyrs

one more time:

1. i'd never heard of

2. was probably a handful of people

3. their own corner

4. doing nothing of consequence

5. now they're martyrs

is this just presumption and benefit of the doubt or like.. your imaginary reality is reality or what

like from an argumentation standpoint

look at this fanfiction

"The question isn't whether white supremacists are bad. Obviously they are."

it isnt obvious to me, the reader, that you think they are actually

because look at your fanfiction and the presumptions about these people you've never heard of who are obviously bad.

how sketch of you

sounds like... idk

a liar.

Talk about a nothing burger post. Your mother should put limits on your online time.

I like what the CCC does for cybersecurity but the culture of the conference seems to get worse with such virtue signalling standpoints every year... 😔 Though they also became slightly more open to freedom techs like crypto currency in the last 2 years which is nice to see 👍

“White supremacists are bad.”

Did you ever say that about “black-power,” “Asian pride,” “Latino pride?”

You anti-white supremicist fuck.

Zionist cuck pretending to care about white people.

What part of fuck israel does your tiny fsggot brain not understand?

Maybe should focus on deleting something useful that will make a difference. Trying to think what that could be.

You sound reasonable but you're wrong.

White supremacists still have Nostr, twitter, 4chan, etc.

This wasn't the only place that accepts them.

And wasn't this dating site full of child sexual exploitation or am I thinking of a different white supremacist dating site that recently got taken down

lol you’re sitting there debating semantics because you know he’s so obviously right. Stop it.

In today's world, does a "white supremacy dating site" simply mean a website where only white people can meet?

If that's the case... What's the problem?

White people wanting to date other White people and start White families is not "White supremacism." It's totally normal and healthy behavior.

That's got absolutely nothing to do with this.

Seriously nobody gives a shit if you're white and want to date other whites.

Don't try to justify this evil shit

Tell me, Kayne, what exactly do you think was evil about whitedate.net or the lady who ran it? I genuinely want to know.

There's no way he responds with a legitimate answer.

I wonder how much free speech or anarchist advocacy he does on here.....

Retards think hating niggers is free speech

Real free speech is critising power structures that actually try to restrict our speech.

Kikes are the ones trying to restrict our freedoms not niggers.

Well you tried.

listen up, boy...

you arent even an actual human being under the law your "liberators" passed that granted you FEDERAL citizenship - you dont POSSESS actual RIGHTS, you ARE SUBJECT TO congressionally-granted privileges that are simply watered-down "incorporated" clones of the FREE WHITE MAN'S BIll of Rights... and you dont even have all ten!

the sad reality that most of you cant read anymore notwithstanding... these are the FACTS and the #law

gfy!

ELLEN R. VAN VALKENBURG v. ALBERT BROWN 43 Cal. 43 (California Supreme Court - 1872). Let’s see what the Honorable California Chief Justice William T. Wallace has to say about this situation:

"No white person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, or born without those limits, and subsequently naturalized under their laws, owes the status of citizenship to the recent amendments to the Federal Constitution. The history and aim of the Fourteenth Amendment is well known, and the purpose had in view in its adoption well understood. That purpose was to confer the status of citizenship upon a numerous class of persons domiciled within the limits of the United States, who could not be brought within the operation of the naturalization laws because native born, and whose birth, though native, had at the same time left them without the status of citizenship. These persons were not white persons, but were, in the main, persons of African descent, who had been held in slavery in this country, or, if having themselves never been held in slavery, were the native-born descendants of slaves. Prior to the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment it was settled that neither slaves, nor those who had been such, nor the descendants of these, though native and free born, were capable of becoming citizens of the United States. (Dred Scott v. Sanford, 19 How. 393.) The Thirteenth Amendment, though conferring the boon of freedom upon native-born persons of African blood, had yet left them under an insuperable bar as to citizenship; and it was mainly to remedy this condition that the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted."

https://www.williamsandwilliamslawfirm.com/a-treatise-on-the-word-person

I am a member of the Kamilleroy nation.

Your laws do not apply to me.

Our sovereignty was never ceded to any government.

We are sovereign people.

maybe start with a one-story building, then the wheel, and check back in...

“We opposed surveillance, censorship, and centralized control as structural problems, not as things that were bad only when used by the wrong people.

The principle was simple: concentrate power anywhere and it will be abused, so build systems that distribute it.”

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Brilliantly said 🤙

It's fine, fuck "white supremacists"