1. Zappers need recognition:

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqpxqupzq70sp5l45x0vspscnl9tq0qmunlcr5vwunm98jy043qluq6hpapjqqsvq8043l5r40277653d7tjx6aw74h0y429xhc5phtgeearcmq97tgvuuxlf

Love this nostr:npub1axy65mspxl2j5sgweky6uk0h4klmp00vj7rtjxquxure2j6vlf5smh6ukq šŸ”„

2. Zappers need anchor points:

3. You cannot depend on Zaps alone and need things you can set a price on. On an open protocol, these things have to be scarce:

- Your Community (write-access)

- Your inbox relay

- Your physical products

- Your hosting / computation

- Your time

- And even your recognition/replies on Zaps (see 1)

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

I love this idea. I completely agree on #3. We need to have more experimentation with different levels of access for different supporters.

But I'm in strong agreement with nostr:npub1dergggklka99wwrs92yz8wdjs952h2ux2ha2ed598ngwu9w7a6fsh9xzpc that the historic mode of setting pre-defined pricing tiers really doesn't work in the V4V model. You have to let supporters pay you wantever they want, no matter how insane the amount might feel to you.

This makes different access levels very tricky... I hope more clients and users will experiment with this.

No prisons, no limits.

It doesn't make sense to put a jpg or a blog post behind a paywall. If it's good, it will be available for free in no time. Someone will right-click save the thing, or take a screenshot, and send it around or republish it. Trying to fight that is stupid. Putting chunks of data behind prisons is stupid.

All data can be reproduced at zero marginal cost, leading to infinite supply. That's why market prices are ridiculous for blog posts, and why it's equally ridiculous to try to sell a single blog post. What you CAN sell is access to an exclusive club or community, as well as access to the author. That's what all Twitch/YouTube/OnlyFans have figured out. But make no mistake: they're not selling JPGs. They might sell early-access (in the case of OnlyFans) which is fair, but it's not selling a JPG as you would sell an apple. Early access because if the stuff is any good, it will be available for free to anyone everywhere.

Here's the thing: people love to support other people, so let them. No limits. The success of Patreon and Substack does not come from paywalls, but from the inherent willingness of people to support others. Lean into that. Let people give without limits.

Social signaling is important. Community is incredibly important too. Do that right, and we can 100x the whole space just like a switch from $50 per game to free-to-play 100x'd the gaming industry, selling cosmetics and social status only.

Computers are copying machines. Information yearns to be free. People want to support the stuff they love, and they're willing to pay for it. Not all people, but ~4% of them. And that is enough.

I wrote about all that at length in the past, e.g. here:

"Copying something at zero marginal cost leads to a virtually infinite supply of that thing. It doesn't matter if that thing is a JPG, a blog post, or an mp3 file. If it can be copied by anyone quickly, perfectly, and for basically free, the supply of said thing quickly approaches infinity. We move from the analog world of scarcity into the digital world of abundance. Markets don't work in this world. In the words of Jaron Lanier: "Markets become absurd as supply approaches infinity.""

https://dergigi.com/2022/12/18/a-vision-for-a-value-enabled-web/

I'm mostly with you. I think the gaming example is a bit dubious. Probably the best game released in ages, amongst a whole garbage heap of both paid and free to play, is a paid game - Elden Ring. Free to play is mostly trash, disposable and will have not much of a fond legacy. There are some exceptions obviously.

Just a little aside. I appreciate the argument tho, I'm just not all that onboard with that analogy.

Exactly. Free to play opens the game for many more players but it comes with a heavy cost. All free to play games compensate with ads and/or inapp purchases. Both forcing developers to make at least some design choices which are NOT in the game’s best interest, thus decreasing the quality of the game itself.

That's fine. My point is a general one: there is a better way to monetize than charging $0.02 for a blog post (or participating in the surveillance machinery), we just have to figure it out.

Curious thing about thoughtful content creation is it’s impossible to know if a given piece is worth anything at all so really the author is the buyer and he is buying your trust with content. There is no true price discovery in this space because the media itself is not the product. Trust in the author is the product.

Yes, I totally agree. I think substack is a great example. There's also this curious project by one of the Kickstarter co-founders. Metalabel.com

He seems like an interesting guy, and this is well worth a listen, a lot of what he says would be onboard with what can be built on nostr.

nostr:nevent1qqszgrnrezzavfx8sx5ef6wkdrgf6ysfp0yj8s47ru583f6mwk3tdcspzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgtczyzw2p0t52p6z663qxxwqu02vv7wfupr2nhrsarh4ts5stcjq2g6qkqcyqqqqqqgqmknpp

Substack is actually a bad example because it's a subscription freemium model, with set pricing, not V4V.

V4V is just a new way to say "have a tip jar".

No yeah you're totally right. It's more like kofi and buymeacoffee etc, I think I mostly just know of substacks which are free to view.

Community software. micro-apps that are unique to a network/fandom and provide specific function or experience that only the network understands.

Community-specific widgets šŸš€

I'm designing for this and I need help in coming up with more examples of widgets that'd be useful for specific communities.

Interesting that you're designing for this, because we're building an entire computing paradigm meant to facilitate this: https://github.com/operating-function/pallas

We should talk šŸ˜‰

Ooooh 🤩

I'm gonna need some time to grasp this (not a real coder here).

At this time, our GitHub repo and all of our docs are squarely aimed at software developers. We are a little ways off from have a product and written material appropriate for a wider audience, but the ultimate goal is your grandma should be running our software one day :)

To put it simply and overly briefly: open source sovereign personal server software that connects peer to peer with other similar nodes. "new Internet, new FOSS software market" yadda yadda lol

With games it gets confusing because they are often partly selling something scarce (computation, hosting, access to a community of other live players, etc...).

Yeah, they do in-game sales, too. Huge business.

Or they're spyware. šŸ˜…

Spyware isn't scarce on Nostr

Where does the 4% stat come from?

You perfectly captured the essence of how the internet and the digital content market have evolved. The battle against the distribution of digital content without consent is a pointless fight, and the real opportunity lies in something more valuable and intangible: community and the connection between creator and audience.

The key to the future, as you pointed out, lies in abandoning the barriers to accessing the content itself and embracing people's willingness to support. Instead of limiting and protecting content, the idea is to open doors to communities where people can connect with the creators they love, feel part of something bigger, and at the same time have the chance to contribute voluntarily.

Taking this into account. Where is the best place to publish such a blog? I am looking at Ghost.org

I want to publish a chapter of science fiction and then place a sat target as a fundraiser on nostr. If the target gets hit I place the next chapter. I have only written four chapters and if I get recurring sponsors it will motivate me to continue and finish the tale in an epic. If the story is shit no one will pay. If it retains reader interest maybe they even want to participate in the creative process. Like an interactive story development.

I am still not certain if I want to use Ghost.org though.

It seems like the perfect project for a blog hosted on Npub.pro.

Write articleson Nostr, publish them automatically on your blog, get zapped to write more, get comments to drive the story! \cc nostr:npub1pr4du5xl28dy5sh4msz9uddnwxgzupkk4qzjzklv84edc6ruevzqlxmkzp

šŸ’Æ

Access to Creators > Access to Creations

> Computers are copying machines. Information yearns to be free.

It always surprises me how persistent is the idea that you can base

a viable, long-term business on limiting access to information and data.

> People want to support the stuff they love, and they're willing to pay for it. Not all people, but ~4% of them. And that is enough.

May I ask where that 4% figure comes from?

Do you think that ecosystems like Nostr can help popularize the concept of value4value and make that number higher?

Free market will decide, but yes.

I think a lot of people on Nostr FUD on V4V because they are trying to monetize social media interactions. I use Zaps on here as a better version of a like but I’m not going to send you a large Zap for some social media post.

V4V is about removing all the barriers so people can enjoy your content as frictionless as possible.

yes

Nobody will ever make enough money from voluntary donations to have a proper career except for a handful of popular creators. In the real world, whenever donations are mission critical they are accompanied by fundraising, which is time spent procuring donations. Content creators don't have the time or resources as individuals to do that kind of marketing. Fundraising is a lot of work.

Relying on donations is an abysmal prospect for anyone trying to make a career from creating content. Many, many talented people on established platforms outside of nostr aren't making enough money to have a proper career. Doing it on nostr right now is even more difficult.

I think going all in on V4V is naively optimistic. The reality is that content creators need an array of tools to monetize their content and being dogmatic about V4V is not productive. It's frankly discouraging to anyone who hopes to monetize their craft, because it's totally unrealistic. It's silly to talk about how the theoretical price of digital content is zero because people today still buy shows on digital platforms instead of pirating them. Maybe answer why people still do that and you'll start to see that there are other factors you aren't considering.

V4V works at scale. It works with more value than a podcast or an image or blog.

It is a commerce feature, not a social feature.

Is that your theory or can you point me to an example where people are actually thriving from tips alone?

Using your logic all books should be free?

Are books not behind paywalls?

An author should not be compensated for their work?

You just reminded me of Aaron Swartz. https://www.internethalloffame.org/inductee/aaron-swartz/

When you can pay 1K sats to read an article and pay for it painlessly over lightning, I will probably just pay it. I have before.

digital business models will be riskier than land-anchored businesses that bootstrap the tech to analogue use cases, which can never be as efficient and therefore defends its margins better.

Bitcoin businesses tend to be ran by or influenced by, autistic devs, who are poorly skilled to be a fiduciary or man manager. AI will help remove them as gatekeepers, and the business models will have to be excellent to survive.

Demo's and wireframes are worthless.

Apps with no income are worthless.

Built and beg is not a strategy.

Fascinating time to invest in these businesses

High risk

But very high reward

Key is the people.

Dev can't keep trying to build businesses, imo, their moat is drying up, and the user wins.

No doubt you need top quality commercial brains in the management teams

ā€œKey is the peopleā€ is another way of saying what’s at my core:

Leadership = Relationships

I think what you are communicating in your first paragraph is:

It’s not enough for bitcoin to be $bitcoin (or perhaps stated more accurately, for BTC to be of value just because it exists)

Rather, there must be use cases. And currently we must bridge #btc to real world businesses.

Do I understand what you are trying to communicate?

Bester Post für heute. Kann man dich auch in einem Podcast oder so hƶren? Reposted šŸ§”šŸ’œ

You know, everyone low-key hates product placement and other advertisements and people are now paying money to get the without-product-placement version. That's just arriving at a freemium model, but annoying the heck out of everyone, first, by trying to peddle face cream and vitamin tablets.

People willing to pay for things, prefer to cut the crap and just pay outright.

Having been in business for a couple decades now, ā€œproduct placementā€ is less about sales and more about brand awareness.

(And admittedly I’m not 100% understanding all of your first paragraph, so please forgive me :) )

re: People willing to pay directly…

Because humans sell their attention so cheaply, most people discover (become aware) of new products via others.

This is the why the rise of the influencer has come on so strong.

However, and I think more to your point, sophisticated buyers don’t learn from influencers (those that amass hundreds of thousands of followers) Rather sophisticated buyers discover via relationship!

This is why you will see most luxury brands advertise in boutique publications or at boutiques trade shows…their sales require relationships, not transactions.

You say DRM strategies are stupid, ridiculous, and don't make sense. You demand no prisons, and no limits on the consumption of digital media.

However I haven't seen any explicit statement about whether DRM would still be bad if the strategies COULD work. You don't seem to say anything about whether the pervasiveness of piracy or the ease of creating unauthorized reproductions are good things.

You talk so much about the status quo for what is possible, but I don't see any explicit statement about rights. Why is that? Won't you say whether the original producers of a piece of digital media have any right to dictate who consumes it? Won't you say whether the consumers of a piece of digital media have every possible right to reproduce it and redistribute the reproductions? Are you even capable of giving a normative justification for a value-for-value paradigm?

So is building relationships and community on #nostr good enough to reach that 4% tipping point for proximity and access?

Or if someone was just starting out…is Patreon, Substack, Paragraph.xyz et cetera really needed?

Essentially what’s I’m trying to get at (albeit it may sound selfish, but that isn’t my heart):

Can someone (like me??) ā€œmake a livingā€ (for lack of better phrase) simply by building relationships (#zaps ??) on Nostr instead of using a 3rd party platform such as those mentioned?

P.S.

I don’t mean to correlate or incenuate that receive zaps = relationships or that the goal of a relationship is to earn a #zap

I’m simply trying to communicate, albeit perhaps not clearly, the idea and potential paradigm shift we are in which is this #v4v movement.

ā€œScarcityā€ may be too simplistic because it reduces events to one scale. A ā€œdistanceā€ metric could be more precise for the kinds of problems we’d like to solve with nostr. And we’re used to multi-dimensional distance.

Following, muting, banning is all binary on a distance scale. In the real world instead we attach social capital to individuals and screaming can bridge this gap, but not from Europe to America and not for long because you’ll get a sore throat.

It would be nice, if clients would experiment with more continuous distance metrics. Zapping being one of them.

Regarding Follows you might enjoy this thread: nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzplfq3m5v3u5r0q9f255fdeyz8nyac6lagssx8zy4wugxjs8ajf7pqqszfm9mvw25s2s720slcx389sw4ylamnl4j6zk2mdm9qsdx2wlyvqqf8hm6t

Regarding Zaps I agree with you. That's why I'm designing for Zaps to be more than just Tips.

IF

1. Creators can reply to them

2. Zappers can see their zap amount in context

THEN

We can see some kind of market pricing form around what amounts/comments are going to get you recognition/attention/reputation ...

Nice, thank you for sharing!

nostr:npub1l5sga6xg72phsz5422ykujprejwud075ggrr3z2hwyrfgr7eylqstegx9z do we have a proposal somewhere for non-discrete relationship declaration? I’m missing the numerics in nostr. It would be cool if we could do calculations with events instead of sticking to categories.

For example I’d like to think a bit more about npub ā€œlocationā€ and ā€œdistanceā€. May something to be tried out with a spatial database such as postgis.

Facebook has graphs, but does anyone have a spatial database underlying its social network?

Well, we have the NKBIP-02 for vector embeddings, that nostr:npub1m3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqhqa5sf wrote.

Where can I find it? Not here: https://github.com/limina1/NKBIPs

No, the link is on the ReadMe.md from the NIP repo. We'll be keeping that up-to-date.

https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/master/README.md

Sorry, wrong screenshot. It's this one: kind 1987

I'm sure nostr:npub1m3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqhqa5sf and nostr:npub1wqfzz2p880wq0tumuae9lfwyhs8uz35xd0kr34zrvrwyh3kvrzuskcqsyn would love to get some feedback, by the way, if you notice anything missing or whatnot.

I read the source on wikistr for the kind 1987 specification.

I like the idea about precalculating embeddings when generating content for efficiency.

One main question though:

You cannot avoid forged embeddings, can you?

This is SEO back to field one. The content ā€œdoes not speak for itselfā€.

You cannot get around some concept of source reputation, I guess.

Or is there a fast way to check on an embedding by verifying it against the content? Like we do for hashes?

If you are grabbing embeddings from other users, there should be a link to the original model used for the embeddings. There are probably solutions for recovering the original text from the embedding and you can also just reembed the text yourself to compare the resulting vectors. But if you're grabbing enough of them that you're trying to make comparisons, you're giving some level of trust because at that level you might as well do the embeddings yourself. Additionally, if the embeddings are already being used in a recommendation system I'd imagine that they are there because they are useful and help increase the organization of the content - so I'd expect that there is less incentive to find embeddings that are maliciously inserted by a user.

I will add that I would expect to see embedding-only relays for search purposes. The relays would be write-restricted so embeddings can't be forged.

To make those workable, they would probably be a paid service, but they'd be much less vulnerable to forgery. Such services would likely need to employ bots to generate embeddings on new content when it is published, but as we saw with ReplyGuy, it's not hard to make bots that can interact with all new content.

Yup, specialized relays = lowest hanging fruit for trust/anti-forgery

The key here, is that relays are the only ones that can truly moderate content for a community because they can hard-delete, block universally, allow universally, define allowed or blocked keywords, manually curate, etc.

Everyone else can only issue events and hope for the best, but a relay is a real server and directly controls the data set on a machine. That's much more persistent.

And communities need to determine what they trust, and what they don't. Then individuals can choose a community whose moderation they prefer, or run their own. Because to trust data, is to value its usefulness and accuracy, but valuations are always subjective.

ā€œBecause to trust data, is to value its usefulness and accuracy, but valuations are always subjective.ā€

This is nicely put and consistent.

But you’re taking an orthogonal step away from other approaches to digital Search if you further follow this road. You must make it clear to client developers that they may need to check content again.

Because the end-user conducting a RAG search may or may not to be protected from forged results. That’s a difficult UX question to answer.

I like the idea of long lasting embedding bots more than the one of specialized relays.

A long living bot attaching embeddings to notes could build a track record of signed transactions and become a trusted npub of the nostr community. This doesn’t have a lot to do with the relay (except maybe retrieval of notes which requires a separate filter implementation).

To make an analogy:

Prefer trusted librarians over a good library building.

This all goes very much in the topic of DVM. The clients should be diverse and heavy. Not the relays.

And most important:

We should not forget that bot npubs can be long-lasting as well!

Perhaps not specialized relays that do a few functions well, but an additional feature for existing relay architecture. It needs the database for effecient storage and retrieval, so a relay that expects embeddings as a feature should use this "module" to know what to do with these event kinds. Otherwise, block the event because you don't want to be holding embeddings unless you actually care about them.

with that, you can automatically embed events as they come in - or you can have an npub be an agent to compute embeddings as you need them. I'd expect embedding all kind1's flowing through a relay, or even a set of relays to be intensive, so you optimize in the quality of the content you embed. User's calling a bot for the job is definitely a signal of quality.

The relay could also call a bot. Because someone needs to sign the embedding-enriched notes.

I think our plan was to have our own bots that subscribe to our own relay. We have an automation server, too.

I think librarian versus library might be a false dichotomy, as a very good librarian might declare that she will be found in one particular library, where she stores the actual books, rather than merely making recommendations.

The job description of a librarian probably splits into 3 areas:

- Incoming: catalogize, archive, quality check, fine

- Outgoing: filter, reference, recommend, make lists, order, rate limit

- Async: reorganize, refresh, order, archive

Am I missing some?

Looks pretty thorough, yes.

But doesn't she also "serve up" or "hand over" books?

Like, you can reserve a book at the library or online, and she goes and gets it, and then you can pick it up.