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An imaginary abstraction

atheism has completely failed to improve the human condition

I think individualism has dramaitically improved the human condition & was likely the real heart of Christianity in the first place. An atheist individualist is probably a better member of society than most religious people have been for most of human history. Belief in "God" doesn't magically make people good. Many just imagine that their "God" has granted them every psychopathic indulgence that crosses their mind, like the Israeli soldiers raping Palestinians, because they are "the chosen people" who can do whatever they want. But the athiest tendency to mindlessly worship the state produces equally horrifying conditions. And quite often the state & religious authorities have been one & the same.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Humans have a weird bias toward the past. We don’t remember things accurately and history isn’t well studied. People often say the world is going to shit and that things were better “before.” Were they really? This is sometimes called seeing the world through rose colored glasses. Religious people seem to romanticize the past more for some reason. I think it’s because they don’t truly understand history. Not that there is anything wrong with believing in god but don’t act like the dark ages were a civilization of advancement. Don’t act like the religious crusades and other wars never happened. Don’t act like religion is all peace and love. And yeah yeah I know someone will say that the books are peaceful and it’s only human corruption that leads to these evils. But isn’t that more reason to value individualism over collectivism? The nature of religion leads to centralized power. The Protestant movement was literally an attempt to decentralize Christianity. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. It was only after Christians disobeyed the church that humanity took another step forward. Blasphemy! The printing press literally advanced humanity because it undermined religion! The greatest period of human flourishing, the gold standard, happened after the separation of church and state. Most people in the world still believe in religion so claiming that “atheism” failed assumes that the world is mostly atheist. It is not. And because no religion has objective evidence to support its claims, there can NEVER be any reconciliation or agreement amongst different religions. There will always be conflict between religions.

Ľḭṿḙśƫṟãɖãṁṹṧ💫#RunCoreV30 1y ago

And yes lest not we forget slave owners justifying slavery to slavers using the Bible was of course good for the slaves

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Or the murder of children and raping of women.

nicnym 1y ago

Anti-theism is just as much of a “religion” as any kind of statist Christianity or Islam or anything else. All of it can and has been used to commit atrocities.

None of this changes what Jesus taught us and the wisdom that is contained in his teaching.

God’s natural law is the basis for all human thought and advancement, from Plato’s cave to Christ’s Gospel, to the Magna Carta, to the declaration of independence, these teachings have built upon the foundation for Human Liberty.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Correct, humans tend to do horrible shit when they get into large groups. We’re tribal unfortunately. You seem to have disproven your own statement though.

Jesus taught you personally? Because he never taught me anything. I never met the guy.

Can you define God’s natural law?

nicnym 1y ago

Well yes it’s written in Plato, the Gospel, Magna Carta, etc-

Basically it is this:

Treat others the way you want to be treated.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

That’s not a law. That’s more of a life philosophy. Which the Bible violates when it commands murder.

“Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.” (Numbers 31: 17-18)

nicnym 1y ago

that is the jewish torah. when I talk about the bible I am talking about the gospel of Christ, which is what Jesus said and confirmed by the spirit today.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Is Jesus not the same god that authored the Torah?

nicnym 1y ago

You quoted it for yourself, there is obviously something very different in that Numbers verse, compared to Jesus's teaching which is not to murder under any circumstances.

Matthew26:52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Okay but it’s the same god right? Why did god just suddenly stop being violent?

nicnym 1y ago

I don't know man, Jesus said that he is the only way to salvation so his teaching is what I personally focus on.

I am trying to write in the other thread, the helpful thing here is to determine the best way to get rid of the power of the State, which I think we agree on as bitcoiners.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Muhammad said the same thing. So did Moses and Noah and all the others. Why believe Jesus? What makes Jesus right and everyone else wrong? The author of the Torah is the same as the author of the New Testament. That means Jesus, who you believe is god, wrote that verse from numbers. That means he violated the “treat others the way you want to be treated.”

I agree that we both want to get rid of the power of the state.

nicnym 1y ago

I believe Jesus is the Son of God (God the Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit) because it has been shown to me in my life that it is true.

Lots of teachings from human history, and we can learn from all of them in my opinion.

The "correct" ones are the ones that help us follow natural law:

do not murder

do not steal

treat others justly, etc.

2a

Deleted Account 1y ago

Respect. Follow whatever God you want but treat people kindly. 💜

I believed in Jesus is the Son of God (God the Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit) because it has been shown to me in my life that it is true.

Lots of teachings from human history, and we can learn from all of them in my opinion.

The "correct" ones are the ones that help us follow natural law:

do not murder

do not steal

treat others justly, etc.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Of course you are free to believe what you want. But you haven’t been able to provide any hard evidence for why you believe this. And you haven’t been able to explain the contradictions I pointed out. We can agree to disagree but I hope you can at least understand why op called it an imaginary abstraction now.

nicnym 1y ago

the fucking tyranny of the state that is currently ruling over us is not imaginary.

The post originally by Jeff was explaining the role in the human psyche of the Higher Power and how it can be twisted into acceptance of the tyranny

MAHDOOD 1y ago

The state IS imaginary. It’s not a physical entity. It’s a mental conception that does not exist. You can’t see, touch, smell, hear, or taste the state. The state cannot think. It cannot speak. It cannot feel. What you refer to as the state is just a group of violent individuals using violence to control and extort people. When a cop murders someone, they say im just doing my job that the state requires me to do. When they killed those young boys and non virgin women from the numbers verse, they said I’m just fulfilling the commandments of god. God and the state have no physical existence in our world. They are imaginary.

nicnym 1y ago

The murder and violence and slavery and genocide is real so what causes it is real and must be defeated somehow.

Jeff Swann 1y ago

The way to stop the violence, slavery, & genocide in the name of imaginary things is to get people to realize they aren't real. When people realize they are resposible for their own actions they will think twice.

nicnym 1y ago

I fundamentally disagree with this approach.

The STATE is real.

It exists as a psychological/spiritual condition of human slaves causing them to disregard natural law- rationalizing war, taxes, abuse, etc.

You are saying you will “exorcise” this “demon” by convincing the people it doesn’t exist?

That will not work, at least in the area of the work I am in.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

“It exists as a psychological/spiritual condition”

That makes it imaginary. It has no existence in the physical realm.

nicnym 1y ago

Tell that to the Swat team when they are breaking down your front door.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

You are the one that said the state exists psychologically and spiritually. Not me lmao

nicnym 1y ago

How are you going to help dismantle/decommission the state if you don’t even know what it is?

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Sir, you said the state exists psychologically and spiritually. How can you dismantle a psychological/spiritual phenomenon?

nicnym 1y ago

By following Christ and using the Holy Spirit to cast it back into hell where it belongs.

Have you not had anyone in your family with a drug addiction or alcoholism who got sober. It is similar to that.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

So basically you’re saying pray harder. But countless people have been praying to have these problems fixed and nothing ever magically fixed itself. It’s people that fix it.

Jeff Swann 1y ago

Telling people that the sun god they want to sacrifice you to isn't real might not stop them from killing you either, but it doesn't make their sun god real.

You are just implying that might makes right. But truth has nothing to do with who has the greater numbers & who can kill who.

nicnym 1y ago

What language is this? I said it makes it REAL- *not* right.

I’m sorry I guess I thought you wanted to fix the problem.

I will try one more time:

Do you think it would be better to tell the Mayan priests that the Sun doesn’t exist?

Or would you tell them the truth? -That the Sun does not demand human sacrifice.

In my definition, mental illness or conditions like alcoholism for example ARE REAL. Statism is another mental illness. Which is real. Atheism is another IMO.

God is real and you will stand before him one day very soon, all our lives are but dust in the wind.

It’s up to you if you will have Christ vouching for you on that day or not.

Ranger Andy 1y ago

This is what I was going to try to say but you put it better than I could have.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

He channeled his inner Ayn Rand on that post

Ranger Andy 1y ago

Fr

MAHDOOD 1y ago

I was agreeing with what he said about the state/government being an imaginary abstraction lol

But atheism is not a physical living thing that can improve anything. It’s just a belief system. Some hold it and some don’t. Some of those people improved the human condition and others did not. Not sure what your point is?

nicnym 1y ago

I’m saying as a social construct, anti-theism has failed to produce anything positive for humanity.

I believe faith in God provides reason and respect for natural law which helps us pursue liberty and reject tyranny.

There is a reason communist regimes always outlaw religion.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Do you have any evidence for this claim that it has produced nothing of value? Last time I checked, evolutionary theory led to our understanding of genetics. I’d say that is a positive discovery for humanity.

How does faith, which is devoid of reason, provide reason? That doesn’t make sense.

Because religion is political. You can argue that communism is a religion. Like all religions, they don’t want any other religion competing with them.

nicnym 1y ago

Ok so I’m not arguing for religion. I’m arguing for Christ Jesus and how recognizing his existence is beneficial for humans. Jesus taught us to Love God, and Love each other “as ourselves”.

(Healthy, peaceful society)

Also it’s my opinion that having this awareness of God- (call it faith, religion, culture) is more beneficial than atheism or anti-theism.

My main argument is: acknowledgement of God (higher power) leads to understanding natural law (private property) which if fully realized and implemented, would completely eliminate the individual human’s tolerance of tyrannical governments that cause the vast majority of the “evil” we suffer from in life.

I think it is similar to bitcoin- bitcoin is great because we know it can never be changed, it cannot be changed by a government.

If we had a more widespread understanding of God’s Law, which cannot be changed by a government- then that would help us in the fight against tyranny.

But if you don’t believe in God, then why would the government NOT be the highest authority? Able to make any law or money it pleases?

God is the unchanging authority. And that’s what makes religion (theist OR anti-theist) so powerful and dangerous. Because the people are easily deceived.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

These are just your interpretations which make them opinions not fact.

Acknowledgement of God does not lead to respect of property rights otherwise Christians would never violate other people’s property rights. My understanding is that Christians are supposed give their money to the poor which is a form of wealth redistribution (like socialist welfare/unemployment policies). Farmers worked as slaves for life under the church in the dark ages. The church was literally violating their property rights. People that questioned the earth as the center of the universe were violently attacked by members of the church. How is that acknowledgment of god respecting natural law?

People had an “understanding” of god before and it didn’t turn out well. If religion was so great for humanity, it wouldn’t have failed. And if you say that those people just didn’t do it right, you’d be no different than the libtard communists that say the same thing about the times when communism failed.

Bitcoin can be changed. It just won’t necessarily make it better but you never know. At some point bitcoin will have to change in order to fix the time stamp bug.

Why would the government be the highest authority absent religion? Why can’t I be the highest authority in my own life? It’s my life after all. The issue I see with religious people is that they think some authority has to exist. Who said so?

nicnym 1y ago

I believe that following the teaching of Christ Jesus would be beneficial for humanity. That is why I am arguing this.

I am not defending the actions of religions or saying "we need to do religion better" like the commies. (good point though)

Bitcoin changing- I meant the consensus, no single "authority" can change the time bug.

The crux of this seems to be the authority question. I believe that you are the highest authority in your life, (God gave you free-will, in my worldview)

We are both "anarchists" I think, I just leave a spot above myself for God, but will never force anyone else to do so.

The problem is there are a mass of human sheep who believe FOR SOME REASON, that there is a RIGHT for the government to own all of us and force us to pay taxes and pay for wars and genocide and etc. This majority of sheep is what gives the government power to send SWAT teams after me or you and no one would really care if we were executed at this point.

So I think what we are talking about is WHY it is that these central authorities are allowed to continue to exist.

Of course control over money is the biggest tool they have, but also control over people psychologically and even spiritually.

Thus, this is why I advocate for a revival of the Gospel of Christ Jesus, which teaches us to follow the natural law and reject false authority on earth in a non-violent way- since there is no King except for God himself.

I believe this approach is the the most effective way to remove the tyrannical state from humanity's future. I do not expect to be totally successful on my own, but I will continue to try nonetheless.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

The reason these centralized powers continue to exist is for the exact same reason you mentioned. People are sheep that want authority to rule over them. They want to delegate responsibility to someone else. They don’t want to do the hard things. They don’t want to stand out and be different. But whether you prefer an entity like the government to rule over you or a religious institution like the church, makes no difference. Obedience to a government or the church makes you a sheep. Religion is a form of government after all. The only way to not be a sheep is to rule yourself. To create your own moral code and follow that.

I already mentioned that humanity living under the rule of the church during the dark ages was a horrible period. Reviving the church of Christ is not the solution and it will lead to violence. The reason it will lead to violence is because there’s no other way to get people to follow it. I certainly won’t follow it. But Jesus wasn’t violent you say? That means it has to be optional right? So if it’s optional, then what has been revived? Christianity under this anti-theism world is already optional. There’s no difference from the way the world is today. The only way to truly revive it is to place the church as the ultimate authority using violence.

William ₿ Travis 1y ago

Even more specifically, it's a cult.

It has doctrine that makes it look legitimate, but then there are always features that veer away from culture.

It has secret info you can't know unless you are loyal and rank up.

It has rules that separate people from mainstream culture.

It requires missionary zeal that transcends virtue.

It threatens harsh punishments for those who don't contribute to it.

It doesn't allow you to leave without giving up most of what you have.

Ranger Andy 1y ago

I would add all of what you describe intensifies the closer one gets to the center.

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Shawn C. 1y ago

Wow, well said sir!

David Caseria 1y ago

Everyone is made with a God-shaped heart. If you don't let God fill it, the government will.

joemack 1y ago

My mom says this all the time.

David Caseria 1y ago

“What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself.”

- Blaise Pascal, Pensées VII(425)

Comte de Sats Germain 1y ago

That's an amazing quote

Adrian M Lopez 1y ago

I massaged someone who works in government and she was incredibly self absorbed and entitled. A massive sense of self importance despite all the work she was bragging about was a complete waste of money. 1.5 million dollars “to help homeless in Nevada”..? Great. Have fun pocketing what you can while patting yourself on the back claiming the highest virtue.

Silner 1y ago

I suppose the shrinking population is welcome in that context? After all as less people are born and less pay tax and less need houses and house prices fall and the wealth pyramid topples as there aren't any cheap workers left, it solves itself?

Comte de Sats Germain 1y ago

"render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's"

I use this as a test to see if my fellow Christians are truly my fellows. So far, 100% of people have gotten it wrong.

cacaoboy 1y ago

That is a HOT take good sir

imnuso 1y ago

Very well said.

Zaelus 1y ago

I think this is very accurate and something that the majority of people wouldn't be able to wrap their head around. I've thought about similar concepts before... the main thought I end up arriving at is: in a hypothetical world where government and religion didn't exist, would things be better for all? Or would something somehow more sinister take their place? I wish it were easier to find out answers for questions like this.

Bad Trader 1y ago

Genius

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LogicallyMinded 1y ago

True, it’s always funny to hear a “normie” mocking someone who got indoctrinated in a cult without realizing that he is himself in a cult.

Marakesh 𓅦 1y ago

Word.

Chewstr 1y ago

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Room34 1y ago

🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼

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9sirtom5 1y ago 💬 1

More precisely - government is a cult.

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onpoint 1y ago

Correct, it is masonic thus a masonic system.

Silner 1y ago

I'm starting to think the problem is a lot more fundamental than govt or even #politics in the organised sense.

I'm gradually coming round to the position that our systems don't scale up to 10s of millions of people, let alone hundreds.

If you look at small countries like Iceland and Norway it seems to work better. Maybe because they have cohesion.

#Religiom used to provide that in larger groups, but as #science marches on people stop believing in bible stories just as children stop believing in red riding hood.

Then you're left with hundreds of interest groups who only seem to align in opposition to other groups. They don't really have cohesion.

The solution is to break large countries up.

Jeff Swann 1y ago

I don't think you can fix societal scaling issues by refusing to scale. That's kinda like trying to fix bitcoin by restricting its use to 10k people & just having them do everything on-chain.

I think issues with govt are only partially a scaling problem anyway. Govt also doesn't work well or produce desirable outcomes on a small scale either. Local politics is often extremely corrupt.

We need to break the "political" world up into billions of soverign individuals who can protect their wealth from forced extracrion with some sort of higher layer bitcoin ownership & then scale society with voluntarily funded organizations that will go out of business or get restructured when they fail to serve people.

Silner 1y ago

I'd turn that around and ask why we need large #countries? What on #earth is the point of them if they don't work It's not like they're necessary.

Jeff Swann 1y ago

We don't need countries or govts or politics at all. What we need is people able to trade with each other which requires something to scale human interactions & limit parasitism.

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61bb909b... 1y ago

Yup. Libertarianchristians.com hits on this hard.

When you look through this lense, you’ll never see a rodeo or sports event intro the same again. It’s a pagan worship service.

MickBurke 1y ago

"The american political system is a cult. And at some point in the last 20 years it's become a suicide cult."

Hazey 1y ago

It's worth repeating

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prepare to jibe 1y ago

Interesting.

Duncan Cary Palmer 1y ago

Hey, Jeff,

Thanks for this brilliant summary of reality.

"They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.”"

- 2 Peter 2:19

Duncan Cary Palmer 1y ago 💬 2

👇👇Brilliant Summary👇👇

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tuco 1y ago

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captjack 🏴‍☠️✨💜 1y ago

well you are still complying n following rules inspite what u post

Jeff Swann 1y ago

There are many rules that I don't follow, but I generally do what is necessary to keep the religious zealots from throwing me in a cage... What difference does that make?

ed

ede3d957... 1y ago

All the difference.

NostrNaught 1y ago

So true!

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