๐ trust
๐คฎ disgust
๐ก anger
๐ฐ fear
๐ญ sadness
๐joy
Dunno what to use for the other two 
Discussion
Case in point. See, with multicultural and multilingual community, fixed set will never work or will be interpreted as intended! ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
Can we build a wheel like interface? ๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ I can just push the 2d slider towards my emotion and have a lil picture of #[4]โ face reacting to the prompt
๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ
Seriously, it's not a bad idea at all.
Problem is that emotions arenโt that simpleโฆ 
But, dual input could pretty much be used to generate all human emotions known to man
Yes Gek, human emotions are known to man
๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ
Dark one incomingโฆ
Mistakes are often an excellent source of comedy. People should love and celebrate their mistakes more, like I do with my son.
Laughing at yourself is a strong quality Iโd say
๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ new player has entered the game
I am serious, this is a very interesting debate. I like this path much more than the other one. #[4]โ You have very good ideas, I think we should go down this road towards something that describes feelings as accurately as possible. No money, that to me is a far cry from sincere support.
I just don't understand why we want to kill the quickest and easiest way to send a wink (support, ping, call it what you will) to someone.
Yeah, I was looking at it from the introvert perspective last night (which I am, just good at hiding it most days). The like is a silent reminder that youโre there, listening. Forcing the repost is not always appropriate. I just hope that people will understand that they are missing out by not engaging more with the notes. (And that renotes display will be changed)
Introvert here too ๐ Following these conversations with much interest as I come across them. I donโt mind sending/receiving โreactionsโ but I am trying the Onlyzaps mode for now because itโs new. Even before this feature I often reply with just 1 or 2 emojis a that express more than a like. We see that all over Nostr with ๐ซ. Thatโs even how ๐ค became the default reaction on Damus. It started as a popular reply. The absence of a reaction button doesnโt take away that option, and Iโm more likely to look at who replied than who reacted.
On the earlier point by Quentin about it being a red line when my settings affect other userโs experience or ability to interact with me, I see it directly. For instance, if I donโt want to receive zaps and I donโt add a lightning address, then I am deciding for all other users that they wonโt see a โก๏ธ button at all on my posts or profile, and that they canโt zap me. A zap is a Nostr event just like a reaction. Why is it OK for me to limit everyoneโs ability to send me a kind-9735 event if I donโt want to receive it, but not a kind-7 event? Or what if future features allow turning off replies on a post, or limiting them to just followers? Turning off DMs?
In each case these would affect how everyone can interact with me, and I think that is the better way to approach it. It puts me in control of setting the boundaries I want on what other people can send me. Forcing me to accept likes/reactions from anyone and everyone on Nostr, sounds far more intrusive than me having the option to not receive them.
Again, Iโm not a โnever-likerโ ๐ and after this experiment may turn them back on, but I do think the way itโs currently implemented puts the right person in control.
Very good point of view. The analogy with the LN address is a good one, but I don't think it can be compared, if I don't have a LN address it's clear that you won't be able to send me sats. But this is as if (in real life) you directly reject any interaction with someone who has no money or way to talk to you directly. Where will that wink, smile, look be, translated to the virtual environment? The like button can evolve, but I don't see anything clear about removing it.
It gives me the feeling that it is an attempt to promote the zaps, to move money. With my friends I love to apply value for value, I help them with a website, they help me with something else. Putting money in the middle usually spoils everything.
What a great conversation, I love it!
I donโt think it is removing option from the user to interact. I think it is very one sided view. If someone posts sad news about something, how do you interpret like! It is extremely limited and easy to misunderstand option that was invented for the sake of algorithms. It has no value. Reply with like, plus one, heart, ๐ค๐ป, whatever. Still better than the meaningless like, IMHO. And yes, thatโs the hill I am choosing to die on. ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
Iโll push just a little because it doesnโt remove the ability for anyone to talk to me directly. There are comments for that. And regarding the point about adding or not adding the lightning address, I was simply giving that as an example of a setting I can enable now that affects how everyone can interact with me, but nobody has complained about that as infringing on their experience. Some people really do want to send sats, and Iโve seen several times when users ask someone why they donโt have a lightning address.
I am in agreement with you that not every human interaction needs to have a monetary component. The challenge I find with likes is that whatever meaning they have, and I believe they can be meaningful, has been sullied by years of vanity use and spam on other social networks. โDoing it for the likes.โ Experimenting with changes to that is worthwhile.
And yes excellent conversation. Iโm enjoying hearing various perspectives on this. Now hereโs a nickel for your time ๐ ๐๐ซ
The underlying problem is that we start from years of vain shit-influencers, so the trend is to kill the like. But I think that the like is a light and quick way to express a feeling (here there is a debate on the forms, for example habla.news does solve it very well), we are going to fill the conversations of comments with a ๐ค, this for me is going backwards.
Your turn ๐
I imagine fewer people would comment than would click โlikeโ but I see what you mean shout it potentially cluttering replies if they did. Weโre actually more in agreement on this than not. I believe likes are a useful way of communicating something sometimes. Where I think we disagree is on who should have control. What I hear you saying is that I should not be able to affect your ability to send me a reaction. I disagree with that. I should have that control. And giving you the option to send it while I simply donโt see it negates their use as a communication tool. At that point it is only to make you feel better for having pressed a button.
It's not a question of feeling better, those who don't have this option activated will also see it, it serves to see what you have liked over time (yourself) and in the other hand you are questioning how the current mute option works, it just works the way I would like the (misnamed) onlyzaps to work.
Donโt mess with introverts when they decide to speak ๐ซ๐
Iโm a talkative introvert (talking once I feel comfortable enough is my way of fighting the urge to retreat inside, so hard to make me shut up once I start and if I shut up for too long, Iโm gone, getting lost inside my head while listening. )
I got a super introvert friend, the kind of pleb that you want to cheer when he gets talkative. But you always want to listen when he speaks, not because he is always right, but because you know that he has listened and considered before taking.
Anyway, thank you for attending my psychoanalysis session.
Regarding Onlyzaps
The beauty of Nostr is that if there is a NIP it can be implemented. Relays can decide to support the NIPs they want, Clients can support (or give option to users to enable or disable) the NIPs they wish, plebs can chose their relays and their clients.
I could argue that itโs unfair that Damus does not support long form notes. That my deepest thoughts go unnoticed by most of my network. I could if I wanted to play devils advocate and stir shit up.
โฆ
Itโs unfair that NIP23 is not supported by Damus! Couldnโt we at least have the summary and a way to quickly go to full version (maybe giving option in app settings to redirect to a web client for now)
All good points again, fren. As for the support of NIP-xyz, there is always option to contribute to the project via code. If you canโt, find friends who can, or post a bounty. People who develop products have their priorities and no obligations to the user if itโs free. Making new features is hard, maintaining them is even more so! Every line of code added sucks resources and time from the developers! ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
Absolutely know that, I am in no way or shape asking for features to be implemented (bugs being fixed howeverโฆ)
Just a way to present the โlikes must stay for everyone, everywhere, foreverโ argument differently.
Ok, makes sense! ๐ถ๐พ๐ซ
Should have added a lil sarcastic signature at the end, sorry.
๐ถ๐พ๐๐คฃ๐ซ
I usually do something to contradict myself in those events, forgot
Sorry I communicate in weird ways sometimes, even for myself then I think about it for days โdid I really say: you have the beard of someone who drinks a lot beerโฆ. To someone I had just metโฆ ๐ณ did I? Yup I did. ๐คฃ
Socializing, tough business to some of us ๐คฃ
*I see it differently โฆ not directly
Mainvolume be like lay off the drugs man when you see me.
#eof
๐๐ค
Wouldnโt replying an emoji be just as effective and probably quicker? This is overly complicated and messy. Replies are already a great solution for when more emotion needs to be expressed.
๐ค
From a protocol perspective, theyโre almost identical anyway. A reaction note uses the โcontentโ field to contain the single character reaction, usually โ+โ or โ๐โ, but Iโve seen others like โ๐พโ. The difference is that reactions use kind=7 whereas regular notes are of kind=1.
A nostr client could choose to interpret and display single-character/emoji reply notes (kind=1) as reactions. This would allow the full range of emoji reactions while adding some friction (takes more steps to post an emoji reply than just tapping a reaction button).
Yet another way to abuse it by the client. If Damus chose to display like as skull, that would definitely be a wrong signal at extreme. So, I say note with sig is way to go. User types in the content, and that is what is displayed! ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
Removing likes to foster engagement, not encourage more zaps
๐ถ๐พ๐ฏ
Maybe the UI should show other users your preference. So for example, when Iโm looking at your post today, I see a like button and a zap button. Somewhere in the UI it could show me that you donโt see reactions (likes) and prefer content responses.
I donโt know what this UI would look like. It could be a ๐ค emoji inside of a ๐ซ or something to show that I can still do the like, but that you wonโt see it.
This is just an idea, but you see where Iโm going. Your preference for a content response is reasonable. As is my preference to just tap the like button. Whats missing in the UI is a way for you to communicate your preference without inhibiting my range of actions.
Wet solid analytics mate
๐คโก๏ธ
Very good idea, It solves everything and allows everyone to experience it in their own way ๐
On the other hand, nice to meet you ๐
I am curious, what would you get out of a reaction to the post that nobody but you can see? Will simple โackโ I saw it and consider it read be the solution? ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
It will be seen by everyone who doesn't have that enabled. And also to know what you have liked before ๐
Then maybe โackโ is it? What if I do not what to have likes display together with my note? What if I donโt want people to sway others by their โreactionsโ? Should I have that choice? Or should you have a choice to affect my content? ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
> What if I do not what to have likes display together with my note?
In the abstract, it is impossible to prevent your usersโ clients from asking relays for reactions and aggregating the results. Uncensorability is a foundational principle of the nostr protocol.
It is possible for client implementations to honor your preference and hide that information from other users. Damus is trying this out with OnlyZaps.
Users who donโt want to have that information hidden can choose to use other clients which do not censor reactions.
Thatโs my point. Having any sort of reactions will impact how itโs perceived and read by other users. I am saying that presence of reactions that are prone to manipulation and misinterpretation is not a good thing. ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
So you are questioning the method we have now to mute trolls, they still affect your content, and that's fine. It's up to each of us, (the others) whether this user is a troll to us or not. Applying this to likes, in my point of view, is a winning option.
If itโs only me: I could be using the reaction function as a bookmark. Later, I can browse my likes to read things I had set aside. Or maybe later I want to search through my liked notes to remember some topic or dredge up an old link.
Good point. I used to do that on the Twitter app before they fixed the timeline auto refresh/jump. Maybe bookmark should be where likes used to be in Damus.
Probably would, exploring what couldsโฆ it really is only a 2 x 2D data points that can display fullest of human emotions.
#[3]โ made the point that emoji can translate differently across culture
This could allow to separate the encoding of the emotion from the display (visual representation) with each culture decoding it itโs own way and users being able to chose via plug in how they wish to decode it
With two quick swipes you could say, this note surprises me and makes me angry! And so onโฆ
โโฆwith each culture decoding it itโs own way and users being able to chose via plug in how they wish to decode it.โ
We already have words. This just reinvents them. ๐
๐ถ๐พ๐ฏ
Again, just exploring what could. Words are not 2 data points on a 2 dimensional surface you could broadcast in under 3 seconds.
Yo
โฆ to let someone know exactly how you feel.
1 or two times x:y coordinates, thatโs it. To display fullest emotions known to mankind. There must be some potential hiding there somewhere
It would be overly complicated for what youโd get out of it. How often do you check to see if who all reacted to a post and which which reaction they used? We already have ๐ค and โค๏ธ reactions combined into one list but you only see that if you look at the reactions on that post. Comments are much more efficient for the recipient.
For disclosure, I wish for a future where I can build my simple algo in the client to create โwhat have I missedโ feeds that I can control.
Likes would be useful to keep to give another data input to the algo.
Donโt put too much weight on these ideas I throw out, they just pure exploration. By discussing them with other it helps me to better explore them, collective thinking out loud.
But if I am having a shitty day and I could quickly filter out all the posts that made people angry from my custom algo feed, Iโd love to be able to so
The challenge then becomes spam. On Twitter, for instance, someone could go buy hundreds or thousands of likes on a tweet through a 3rd party service. I saw someone do this last year and they won 1M sats in a meme contest because the winner was chosen solely on number of likes. ๐ When likes cost nothing or very little, they become an easy target. When something that costs very little becomes an input into an algorithm that could get your attention, now it becomes an attractive target. An easy attractive way to put information in front of lots of peopleโs eyes with the hopes of manipulating some into falling for scams, believing fake news, etc etc etc.
Since when forcing people to do something actually works? #[6]โ is not the only client out there
It has never worked, well sometimes it has ๐คฃ.
But I agree, there are more customers, but it's a pity that the most important nostr client (and the one that works best too ๐) makes these changes without generating a debate first.
My humble opinion, I open the umbrella โ๏ธโ๏ธโ๏ธโ๏ธโ๏ธโ๏ธโ๏ธโ๏ธ๐ ๐ โ๏ธโ๏ธโ๏ธโ๏ธโ๏ธ
We are still forgetting that itโs not in release. Itโs a test, nobody is forced to do anything! App Store version is still available! ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
By you turning on zaps only, that is forcing me ๐ to zap โก๏ธ
Feel free not to zap me, comment, sure. If this will make you feel better, Iโll remove my LN url just for you. Iโve done it before and Iโll do it again, just say a word! ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
That sounds a lot like an ultimatum ๐
Not really, at least not intentionally. What I am trying to say is, everyone should have a choice (to an extent) and we should all respect it! ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
All good. We just have to agree to disagree. ๐
Thatโs the way! I am glad we can actually talk as civilized people! Love you and this place! ๐ถ๐พ๐ซ๐๐๐
๐ค๐
๐๐ถ๐พ
It will be interesting to see what happens when there are more iOS native nostr client choices. If thereโs a client that lets me keep using likes, and Damus censors me, then Iโm switching.
There are already alternatives, look:
Yeah, maybe I should switch to Test Flight. Though if I did, my likes would already be censored. ๐
Of course, the debate is on the testflight version, that's for sure ๐
Also the word "force" is very harsh, I mean simply, couldn't it work the same as the current "mute" feature?
In fact I can make a quick shell script now to generate millions of new npubs and post โlikeโ note to any note. ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
Yes also with comments, or zaps of 1 sat. Pow is the solution for that ๐
POW on mobile is a literal killer feature. There are places for it, but I think this is not it. ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
You think? I didn't have that on my radar, why?
It will use more compute and hence more emu, which results in your phone dying quickly! ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
But only for events, so if you are not fishcake or quentin ๐คฃ๐คฃ and you only create ยฟ10? events a day should be affordable for a phone, i think
Every milliwatt counts. The cheaper you make it the more abuse you will have. ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
Agreed, also, a troller doesnt care about pow. Why would he? He can just run a heavier processing unit to bypass the pow.
The aim is to make it difficult for them, but I think the debate now is not about PoW but about yesterday's update.
Nice to meet you ๐
Nice to meet you too. What was the new update about? Something with zaps only right?
The point of PoW in the context of nostr posts is to make it costly to spam. Trolls have budgets just like everyone else.
NIP-13 describes how PoW can be delegated specifically to address the problem of low-power devices (mobile). One could pay a miner to mine a noteโs PoW.
You can do this on https://www.sats4likes.com
Iโve used it to pump a few things on Twitter. The whole thing is manipulated so I have no problem manipulating it to my ends and doing so with Sats to a #Nostrich dev.
Absolutely, then we need to address trustworthiness through a aggregated and uncoruptable trustworthiness rating model, just typing this feels Orwellian but methods of addressing trustworthiness rating at least for commercial exchanges at protocol level could be interesting Trust is hard to earn over time, and easily lost.