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Hell yeah! That's an interesting way to phrase it, but this is kind of what I've been getting at. A woman has a natural, automatic mechanism to verify that her partner is strong, is true to himself, and is a leader. When you sacrifice yourself, a woman makes the pain of that brutally present and forceful, but she does precious little to guide you: she probably does not even know the answers, and that would defeat the purpose of your journey anyway. If you can't stand on your own two feat as a man, you do not deserve her.

Brunswick 6mo ago

A woman is like fire.

If you try to become one with her, she will consume you.

Best to respect her for who she is: a woman and possibly a mother.

Codependency is bad for both genders mmkay. There are plenty of women existing as whole human beings and not just mirrors for men's existential insecurity.

Although this does explain some behavior I haven't really understood from men 🤔😅

Yeah it's the same for both (which is part of the beauty of this) but it's, like, more this way with women. The man also acts as a mirror to his partner much of the time.

I like the idea of raising children together. I don’t like the idea of married for life. Loving relationships thrive when there is sufficient emotional and physical distance. Codependency is bad for everyone.

Married for life doesn't always come with codependency. A healthy marriage allows that space.

It doesn’t always but the norm is that married people live together, share the same bed, and and use the same finances.

And it removes all aspects of the "hunt".

"He ain't leaving anyway so why would I bother"

Not to mention the incentive for women to divorce because they will gain more than by staying in what she considers a dead end.

Yes divorce incentivizes women to leave their husband and incentivizes men to tolerate poor treatment from their wife. Relationships would be much better off if they just stayed as a couple raising children together. People treat each other better when they know that their partner can and will leave them if they are out of line.

Just don't marry someone you can't trust to respect you. It's as simple as that. It's not forced on people. You can just not get married. People who get married without thinking about it are fucked in the head, frankly lol!

It’s not that simple. Most people respect each other before getting married. Their ugliness isn’t a reflection of their true character but the context of the situation. Most people are not inherently violent but when you back them into a corner they show their teeth. This doesn’t mean they are violent just like it doesn’t mean people are disrespectful. They become that in the context of their marriage when incentives and needs are misaligned.

Hm. Maybe. I don't really know what is good for other people. I only know what's good for me. I was perfectly capable of figuring all of this out with a little work. So I don't see it as unfair, but other people can craft their own conclusions and solutions. I don't really care. I think there are much, much deeper causes of the problems you're talking about, like lack of rationality (assuming, jumping to conclusions in everything people think), generational immaturity and lack of accountability, statism, fiat, an overly strong need to fit in with a tribe, and the inherent difficulties in the game that, from the perspective of nature, must be part of the system for the human race to maintain a healthy degree of natural selection and not fall into extinction. Some of this is fine and some of it sucks. I don't know what sucks for other men so much as I know what sucks for me.

I get where you’re coming from but what worked for you has only worked for you so far. Things change and they often change fast. Assuming that what has worked for you will continue to work is like saying that things will continue to stay the same. But the person you are today is not the same as the person you were yesterday. This means that change is expected and that means incentives will also change. The respectful person that gets married today may not be the same respectful person in 10 years. That’s what me and OP are trying to argue.

Yes good point but the counter to that is that there are entire systems that align incentives in the opposite way, that's what I was trying to highlight.

What systems? 🤔

Idk like personal accountability and the many contracts you make, in writing or in speech, with your partner, and stuff. Something like that. It's not all guaranteed to fail just because of a few external perverse legal systems and shit.

I don’t have any interest in making any sort of contract with the state. A marriage contract requires the state to be the enforcer. Unless you’re talking about an unwritten contract between a man and his partner. That’s fine but not marriage in the traditional sense.

You’re right that it is not guaranteed to fail but the odds are a coin toss that your marriage will fail. And that doesn’t account for the number of marriages that are miserable but stay together for the kids or because divorce is expensive. I know a decent amount of people that have been separated for many years but still legally married. Even more that are trapped in a loveless marriage where cheating is likely happening or inevitably going to happen.

I guess I'm living in anarchy in my head. I'm talking about a voluntary contract of marriage with reasonable terms. That's a good point that usually people mean a state instrument. Gross. Yeah I don't know about that one. I rely on private contracts as much as I can for everything. But that's an issue with statism and everything that accompanies statism, much moreso than an issue with the concept of a legally binding marriage.

Yes but I wouldn't say they're fucked in the head. Inexperienced men that fall in love and marry are doomed from the start. Men are sold the white knight story from a very early age, at least I was. The idea that being a good guy is a noble pursuit.

Just trying to warn/inform men and potentially women with what I'm saying. Though the warning will most likely fall on deaf ears, I would have also disregarded everything I just said just a few years ago.

I would listen to this after my first heartbreak. The problem is finding it through the noise of bad relationship advice. I think most men and women are good and want healthy honest relationships. The problem is they just have the wrong expectations of relationships. Your partner can’t be everything in your life: best friend, lover, business partner, gym buddy, recreational partner, bitcoiner, coparent, therapist.

The knight story and being a good man are noble pursuits. It's kind of what it's all about. The issue is: are you really a good man? Are you really strong? What are you pursuing? Is it worth it?

A truly strong man asks himself these questions anyway and figures it out eventually.

https://youtu.be/XReMNYPfjPA

These are not noble pursuits imo

Even that isn't necessarily bad. There's a lot more one can do to have the necessary boundaries for health, growth, and individual respect. The norm is disrespect for oneself and one's partner, that's the problem, not the mundane particulars of marriage nor the interweaving of the two people's lives.

This is interesting to me because I've come across a few different men who think like that. They want the babies but not the marriage, because they see the marriage as a threat to their assets. They don't see babies as a threat to women's assets or bodies, but I do 😅 so for me, no ring, no babies.

But yes, codependency is bad for everyone 🤝

On a random note, in many tarot decks the card for "the devil" is the same format as the card for "the lovers" because what is hell if not being chained to someone you no longer love under some diabolical authority figure?

That’s very interesting! The institution of marriage was originally intended to help children because society didn’t want a bunch of fatherless children running around.

Regarding the use of a woman’s assets, I think there is a reasonable solution. Since a woman goes through intensive labor growing a baby, birthing it, and then raising it, I believe she deserves to be compensated. It sounds strange to some people when I suggest a man should pay his wife for her work but it is work. Surrogate mothers get paid so why shouldn’t a real mother get paid? I believe no man or woman is entitled to the labor of another human. Unpaid labor is slavery. So if your partner pays you, then you don’t need a ring because you’re being compensated for using your assets (i.e. body). And the amount you are paid is open for negotiation.

I very much agree with this take! Although a lot of women see it as me being ruthlessly transactional, but like, clarity in contracts eliminates a lot of strife! I think prenuptial agreements when clearly articulated effectively address these issues. I would never get married without a prenup. Similarly, if you don't want to get married and want to do a short term contract that could also be a fine solution as long as you think through things with your partner.

I also think women should be paid for domestic duties even if they don't have kids. Because like you said, unpaid labor is slavery. But that's usually not a popular take 🤣.

I've known a LOT of unhappy women who are staying in situations because they just think it's their lot in life and it's so sad because it's not. And they bring down everyone in the house because they're unhappy so they start shit because they resent others being happy. We all have freedom, we all have choice, and we're all better when we take ownership of our sovereignty 🙌

I agree all labor should be paid unless she doesn’t want to be paid for it. If she’s cooking and cleaning the home then she should be paid. Idk why it’s weird to pay your partner but not weird to pay a chef or maid. But i think some people like to leave it vague and ambiguous because someone is usually getting the better end of the deal. Like if a woman gets access to a credit card and can spend as much as she wants, she may be better off than collecting money for her work. This should be more normalized for sure.

I love how on Nostr I can talk to people from different perspectives and come to reasonable understanding and have more insights about myself too, thanks internet friend 🥰🤝🥳

I would disagree with the "plenty" statement but that's just semantics. Y'all do the testing whether you're conscious of it or not. The degree to which you do varies HEAVILY ofcourse.

Yup. And men even do it a little. Men are more likely to engage in rational, conscious, explicit testing and guiding. Like "wtf are you doing, this is illogical!" Men and women learn from each other and learn to become more accountable.

May we all find a robust, resilient relationship that encourages self growth 🤝🥰🙌

If the testing is unconscious on the part of the woman, then how much of this testing is just men feeling insecure and wanting validation from women? And what could repel a woman faster than an insecure man who constantly needs to be told things are ok?

I think a confident man who is secure in himself probably does not have this problem often. Similarly, a confident woman who is secure in herself is probably not out here testing anyone, insecurity is obvious and easily avoidable.

Maybe the "plenty" semantics is just a numbers game. Of all the woman I know, the vast majority would not trifle with those types of games. But a small proportion absolutely love playing mind games on insecure men because it gives them a thrill, maybe that smaller proportion reads as a larger part of the population to men via a variation of prospect theory?

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Women offer a brilliant source of support and effective, proactive feedback which helps build men up, but this feedback information is encrypted in a sense, comprehensible only to those who are truly strong and courageous deep inside. Those men who stand on principle and reason. Those men who are accountable and have self respect. The rest fail the tests, and, if the woman respects herself, lose the woman too.