Why do we still buy (rent?) phone numbers?
No one needs these numbers anymore. End them.
Discussion
What else are we gonna use?
Call me on my free email or my nostr pub key via 0xChat
nobody gonna memorize a nostr pubkey, and virtually no nostr clients support contacts and labeling
That's BS. No one memorizes phone numbers these days. I dont know my wife's number. And she has had that number for over 15 years.
phone numbers are 10 digits in base 10.
thats way easier than an nostr pubkey.
even still, i agree most dont memorize numbers, and wish nostr users didnt have to memorize pubkeys to identify impersonation
> nostr users didnt have to memorize pubkeys to identify impersonation
Who the hell is doing this? Get a better client. You can follow the pubkey you trust and the client can inform you if you are talking to the key you followed earlier or if this is an impersonator. There is no need to memorize anything.
This is posted by Vic, but appears as Vitor. Anyone following both the real Vitor and myself is unlikely to discern the difference as clients dont support client side labels like phone contacts
We can implement that if that is your fear. Either way, users should NEVER have to memorize an npub.
Agreed
Do that because I do fear.
Already got caught off guard by a fake nostr:npub1498f4ya5laqfp53vt02ewqnhe94tvnl0ek7gn2tu6qeppr2pzk2sllz3y7 the other day.
In computer science these are called pet names.
NIP-02 is overly simplified and promotes bad UX. The Petname system by Stiegler discounts entirely what the referenced entity is offering as their given or preferred name.
The primary thing correct in NIP 02 about this topic is that a petname is a label assigned by the entity who is maintaining their private list. Its the nickname hierarchical format which is kind of bogus.
Nostr clients would ideally support petnames for all manner of lists, whether its about a pubkey (like a contact, address book), notes (e.g. labeled bookmarks).
Trying to construct local petnames (even as a default) from other peoples follow lists would need to imply some kind of order which could only be guaranteed if adhereing to chronological order of entries in main follow list.
Furthermore, its absolutely essential that petnames can be private to the user. If leaving the device, it should be encrypted such that only the assigner can read it.
As a user, in an ideal client Id be able to
- assign any pubkey a petname/label that is private to me
- privately bookmark a note, and give it a personally meaningful petname/label that only i see
- see my designated petname/label by default in place of name or display name attributed by the pubkey in kind 0
- locally search my private bookmarks, list of pubkeys by petnames/labels i assign
- visually identify (by a glyph), those pubkeys and notes for which ive assigned a petname/label
- toggle a setting in my client to disallow or prompt confirmation of screenshots when a private petname/label is in view
- toggle a setting to show my private petnames/labels, or use the name or display name in kind 0
- when viewing a user's profile i should see the petname ive specified, and have some way to see the name or display name from kind 0
- when viewing a list of users or bookmarks, be able to discern which ive assigned petnames, and which are known only by their name, display name, or in the case of notes the subject tag
This is effectively a personal naming system and is independent (but may be influenced by) any socially assigned nickname suggestions.
its kind of a big undertaking to implement petnames/labels in a meaningful way, which is why i think we need to spec this out better
Sounds like a plan. nostr:npub1gcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqlfnj5z ?
I proposed a way of doing this called Relationship Status, which not only allows you privately petname pubkeys also categorize your friends and assign scores to them in a true Web of Trust fashion. Clients can do all that in a public or private way with the same event format.
https://github.com/vitorpamplona/nips/blob/relationship-status/81.md
This is suitable, and accomodates testimonials as well via summary when public
How do I upvote this.
In TLS also called certificate pinning.
My brother in Christ, memorize your wife’s phone number
I think that's just you
Matrix, XMPP, SIP, Teams™ (proprietary), Google (proprietary), SSB radio, etc, etc, etc.
I recommend XMPP for lightweight server with minimal state, or Matrix which has server side logging (and extensive server side state that entails). Both of these are easily bridged to telco for your friends in 20th century countries.
Nostr pub key man.. nostr pub keys...
we are highly regarded as a species ser
I look forward to this all the time. So many of the conventional systems need phone numbers to sign up though. They'll go away eventually
Yes
once signal and other messaging apps no longer require them, I’d love to ditch mine
Signal is not secure. Just ditch it. There are too many open and secure messaging/voice protocols that do not use telco (except via bridge services) already. There are even proprietary Big Tech things like Teams™ (use Matrix instead, there is even a bridge).
I don’t disagree but just getting normie family and and friends off of straight SMS is SUPER hard. Personally, no one in my personal life is willing to make another switch beyond signal when just that took epic cajoling. This feels like a “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good enough” moment. I’m with you in spirit though. For BTC only people chats its probably fine.
What standard chat shall we use?
Lots of the world did this and standardized on......WhatsApp. It's free! Just sign up here and all your data are belong to us. Somehow worse than the telcos.
It seems Musk wants to remove it's number to only use twitter for calls and messaging 👀
Consensus & availability are the two reasons. People want a defacto way to verbally connect to someone and write it on their skin or a napkin and they can assume someone will have that and it can be used to contact them using several form factors. There's also the fact that there's infrastructure to communicate without a smartphone our computer available. Institutions require that people have them to be successful. Job interviews, official business, etc. Not everyone has the privilege of interacting in a digital only world. A skilled tradesman would have constant trouble interfacing with their customers. If a decentralized alternative worked through the phone lines, it would be pretty sweet, or there existed a way to take over control of phone numbers from those entities. I wish we could make them "handles" for another system like keys or dids.
There are many bridge services from telco to digital federated voice/messaging. I use diamondcard.us for SIP and jmp.chat for XMPP. jmp.chat also does SIP and Matrix.
Those are great but they further enforce/bow to the dominance of the phone number.
You don't use a phone number with XMPP or SIP. Or Matrix. The bridge services are just for your old tech friends (although they don't use automated switching).
I was referring to the bridge, not xmpp or sip. Because phone numbers are still desired for the reasons I originally posted, a bridge only highlights why most people are still needing to have phone numbers to function in this world. It's about "availability* to more people's situations, aptitudes, services, and locations. And it's about both cultural and institutional *consensus* that the phone numbers are needed to participate with they who run the shit. To be clear, I do not want the status quo, but it's a narrow view for , well yeah there are so many things that could replace phone numbers. I mean if we are talking about this kind of power, I would ask why did people use .mps when .ogg or .flac were superior and didn't cost anything to build for? On a technical merits only level: easy, there is no good reason. But the history, spread, funding, business, power, profit, behind how .mp3 remained relevant so long is what is more discussion worthy. Same thing here. I'm answering assuming he was asking about why people, themselves, in this world, decide to us;l e a phone number (including for a bridge)
It's an american thing. Expats all use WhatsApp 🤷♂️
Yeah. Give your info to Meta so they share it with psychological experimenting companies without your consent 🤣.
If only dumb nornies will use something else like Simplex 😒
We don't need SIM CARDS anymore. We just need internet connection. Let's deattach sim cards from phones. Modem will be an external device.
So, carry two devices instead of one? Downgrade.
The SIM in phone is still the better option.
Even the modem has a SIM.
eSIMs are the nightmare though. Privacy issues with that shit 😒
What do you mean? The persons that i know is still using phone numbers to contact, in fact, at some remote places people had no choice but to buy a phone number to get into Internet.
And how the hell do you memorize these randomized strings:
347a2370900d19b4e4756221594e8bda706ae5c785de09e59e4605f91a03f49c
Even it's possible, Only a few people will do it. In fact, There's no way that people want to retype that long string into a phone again.
People still prefer to reach via the existing platform because "the function still works well. so what's the point of switching?". Even you told them about the privacy, These people will instead says "you are being paranoid" and that's it.
So I can call you from my landline? I don't know!
There's still quite a large area only covered by 2G, and insufficient consistent 3/4/5G connection to facilitate reliable voice calls. Landlines can be useful if mobile connectivity goes down. Significant proportion of elderly struggle to deal with/operate smartphones and computers. They will be obsolete eventually, just not yet.
🔥🔥🔥 🐉✨
Phone numbers are still required for many bureaucratic processeses :(
We need to realize that it is just the infrastructure. Without those telephone cables, we won't have phonenumbers and cannot call. But the #internet is not so different.
People tend to forget that the only reason you can talk to someone in america or europe via #internet is because there are gigantic data centers build to transport this digital data and distribute it to other countries or under the sea.
Destroy the digital infrastructure center in amsterdam and I am pretty sure many problems arise in europe, as it is a really important part in digital infra structure in europe.
The worldwide web isn't that #decentralized as we might think. And there are also cracks appearing in this web.
This is why it is so important to keep everything to a minimum so you can reduce workload.
identity. once another service or tool exists for easy and mass identity, then we could probably do away with them.
Wasn't Block/Dorsey working on self sovereign identity, based on Bitcoin.?
Our overlords need them to uniquely identify us
My grandma disagrees. Her phone does not even have "apps"
Phone numbers are going to be around for a long time because we’ve got so much built on top of them. Similar to email. My kids only use email as the second factor when they create accounts.
I use discord to talk to them.
Using discord to talk to your kids is insane 🤣
How else are people supposed to communicate then?
You DO realize there are still people who don’t have internet access and do things the old fashioned way but they do have a phone?
Like the elderly, low income and poor people, people living in rural area?
And that there are still people who have a landline?
I think you and Tech industry people are out of touch with the average person cuz frame of reference (filter bubble) is people similar to yourselves — white, male, privileged background aka Silicon Valley!
Careful. Don't forget that I spent 15 years developing and shipping medical devices to the most remote parts of the planet. You know something they don't have over there? Phone lines.
Phone lines are a relic of the rich and middle classes of the past. They never reached remote places and the low income were never able to afford them. Both just leapfrogged this whole thing.
Maybe you can find elderlies that are still not connected. But those are not common anymore. And they certainly don't need to buy a phone line to be connected, when they decide to join the web.
No, I didn’t know that cuz don’t know anything about you. (Noticed a repost of yours on nostr:npub1r0rs5q2gk0e3dk3nlc7gnu378ec6cnlenqp8a3cjhyzu6f8k5sgs4sq9ac's feed.)
I did look you up quick and am certain we definitely know mutual irl people since I have lived on the East Coast.
Yes, land phone lines started as a luxury for the rich initially in the 1800s, but it trickled down to regular people. The Telephone is considered a utility like electricity and heat. And they have programs for low income & poor for discounted access to it.
There are farmers in rural areas who can’t get high speed internet or where mobile phone lines have spotty/dead coverage, but they DO still have a reliable landline.
There are actually a lot of elderly people who don’t use the internet or/and find it difficult to use. And most of them find it very confusing to use. Same for smartphones.
Technology is NOT intuitive for them, like it is for a 10 yr old kid who can figure it out by playing with it.
Tech developers need to be building things that are much more simple and easy to grasp for ALL people if they want it to be used by everyone vs just the SV Tech types.
I’m not a computer geek nor coder, btw, but obvi more tech savvy than the average person.
I’m an artsy person.
Concur.
We should mandate a year or so of backpacking for everyone the same way some countries mandate military service.
These (non internet) people are ageing out. We need self sovereign identity; no state, but something which can be used as a reference and trust built upon. Any real solution in this field will take decade(s) to win the market.
STD. ISD. PCO.
India in the 90's
https://nostrcheck.me/media/public/nostrcheck.me_4835512605183238181707891815.webp
Wartel. Indonesia in the 90's
https://nostrcheck.me/media/public/nostrcheck.me_3066783459408620011707891947.webp
I set my phone up to send all calls to voicemail immediately and turned off notifications for SMS.
It's still there for the things that I need it, but it's not a good way to contact me.
If you live in the swamp, your cell will straight up drop that call where you've been on hold and then troubleshooting with tech support for 45 minutes. Other times you need to have a mobile to text or screenshot while you're speaking to said tech support on your damn landline, if you must know!
I think I have used my phone's PHONE function exactly once when I accidentally tapped that button.
Ty for opening up this bag o lab rats, great discussion, followed everyone who chimed in. This is why I Nostr.
It's one of the more stable global namespaces.
Because not all services have gotten rid of SMS 2FA yet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I still need for few services once a while
End phone number identifiers.
Phone numbers are a shitcoin.
🫂