Are Paid Relays a Shitcoin?

Last night on Nostr Spaces, we discussed potential implications of paid relays. I believe we Nostriches all understand that paid relays are needed for 1) to pay for the service that we're using as nothing should be free 2) relay operators need funds to pay for relay hardware infrastructure and 3) to thwart spammers.

#[0] said that he thought that paid relays were Shitcoins. What did he mean?

With a Shitcoin, anyone can create one. There is no Proof-of-Work in this process. The creator makes promises about their current offerings or future offerings. And lastly, they want payment and take user's money.

#[1] mentioned that he believed paid relays should operator on a Web-of-Trust model. What does this mean?

Do you know the relay operator? Do they have an older or well known Nostr public key? Did they previously run a free relay? Do reputable people use and recommend this relay? It's fairly easy now to form a Web-of-Trust with well known actors in this space and community.

As we move forward, we do need to watch for scams. A relay and operator could appear out of nowhere. A relay could promise the moon on speed and resources. That relay and relay operator could also disappear in a day or a week or a month, after they've reached their fund raising goal.

Right now, using Nostream to operate a paid relay at least requires a ZBD developer account. This is right now behind a gatekeeper. #[2] needs to approve relay API access. This will get easier in the future. In the future, Nostream will work with other providers and I would assume even end up working with your own node. In the future, we'll need to be more diligent when choosing paid relays.

Start building your Web-of-Trust now.

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Discussion

Id say shitty paid relays are a shitcoin...good relays are not 🤷‍♂️

how do you recognize a "shitty paid relay"? 😉

Well, nostr.bitcoiner.social floods my global with trash...other paid relays i have dont. Thats my only frame of reference at the moment.

nostr.bitcoiner.social isn't paid is it? i used it for the first month here but removed it because it was super slow and laggy.

Isn't that a free relay?

Yes. It is free.

Thank you for your paid relay, sir! Definitely not a shitcoin 😉

Thanks for trying it. I appreciate you spreading the word 🍷

My main concern with the relay model is that it is a gateway to creating exclusive areas on Nostr that only wealthier individuals or well-connected vips may get access to. Let's say someone creates a paid relay that requires a large sat payment to join. What then? It possibly becomes elitist.

My goal is to keep bridging the gap between paid and public relays. Client side delay options will help do the same.

See our work: https://github.com/nostr-wine/filter-relay/blob/main/README.md

Client side relay* options

I think it's native to think that this won't happen. It's an open protocol. Anything can happen.

What will help all this is relay evaluation maturing

When people better understand what they’re paying for, how to compre them etc…much more competitive pressure

Paid relays shutting down is a risk, but could be solved by subscription models

imo not a shitcoin

I don't think they're a shitcoin either. That wasn't my point. I just think that we do need to watch for scams in the future.

I use and pay for 6 different paid relays and I would continue to pay them on a subscription model.

For sure, I agree. People don’t know what they don’t know rn, so the risks of being taken advantage of are higher

Semi related but people pasting their priv keys everywhere is huge vulnerability

Be sure to shake your relay operator's hand in the Nostr metaverse!

🤔

Shake it, baby.

I think free relays could be viewed with suspicion as well. Especially if they seem to offer better service than paid relays. In this case, you are the product.

Theoretically could I start a free relay and broadcast all the events to all the paid relays if I paid the fees so people could have "free paid" relays? Also I don't really know how relays work and wouldn't do this but seems like a loophole

This doesn’t work in practice.

My post from yesterday.

"I run the nostr replay - relay.bleskop.com

Over the last weeks I have given it a great deal of though about paid relays vs public relays and both does not seem to fit my outlook for nostr.

So, I have decided to do the following:

1. Relay based on trust. I have whitelisted all npub of my follower and people that I follow. As I trust them. Once a month, I will ask for 1 recommendation per whitelisted npub. They will then be added. Here comes the catch: If your recommendation or you start spamming, they and you will be kicked off the relay. So, only recommend people you trust.

2. Cost of running the relay. Currently $40/month - Linode 4 CPU, 8GB RAM, 160 GB I will eat the cost of running the relay, but as everything in life there will be a cap on resources, so at some stage I will have to stop accepting new npubs.

I hope this makes sense. "

Great, now you are the Equifax or TransUnion of Nostr and the people who got in first are financial institutions.

Did add a second relay that is paid but made the initial payment steep to keep spammers out. My thinking is to keep SATS and if you want to discontinue the service then do a 50 % refund. If you get kicked for spamming then you lose all of it. nostr.spleenrider.one

I actually really like the idea of a relay with a cap of resources and users. i.e. My relay is only accepting the first 10K npubs. Then you charge whatever you need to cover that cost. It also helps with decentralization and keeps the relay fast for paying customers.

The great paylay/freelay debate

use paid relays. debate over. 🤣

Relay operators WILL appear out of nowhere. People will probably say I did :-) I'd say I've been around since I write the first uk.finance FAQ on Usenet :-)

There will be scams, because a PAY ONCE model is not sustainable, but while it's essentially the only game in town, and people have no idea what fair charges are, I predict the following :-

Mainstream Media notices Nostr. Scammer buys ads next to those articles, uses all the usual tricks re click-ad, pitches a top end price via a fiat front end. "Just 10 bucks, GOLD LEVEL MEMBER, Free Client Software". Pulls in money, vanishes. As with all scammers, they prey on the new. People who don't know how things work.

The best way to mitigate this is to move to a per month or even per post (if spammers start to pay to relay) model for pay models. Roll out others as you like too. But an ecology of "once only" is where scammers will come and they might thrive.

The next thing that will make it harder for scammers is relay differentiation. I run a relay. I'd like to say "I run a relay out of the UK, following UK law, so great for Brits and other english speakers". Right now, I can't. (But I did see the post that suggests soon, I'll be able to).

I think the per post model is interesting and it's something that #[3] and I have been discussing for a future nostrplebs.com relay. NIP-05 ID registered users would get X amount of events before they would have to pay more.

I'm not technical - you might have noticed - but to me, spammers, as we see, post in crazy high volumes. People, even addicted people, could run to 500sats per post and not blink, but spammers, would.

"Dreams a bit".....first x posts 500sats per. Next x, 5000sats. Next x, 50000, adjust to whatever level stops spammers on the relay.

Thinks - if relays noticed the same content, or substantially the same, being reposted, throw up an invoice or human test.

No doubt our devs have many long days ahread of them :-)

有料リレーが増加してきたため詐欺リレーが現れる可能性が増しています。しばらく注視する必要があります🖖

#[0]

At first I think the same that is you need backup of your personal events.

Damn. Now I’m suspicious of the relays I paid for.

You're probably fine for now, but it's good to think about these things as we move forward.

You're picking up on an element I think many haven't quite grasped. Nostr is using cryptographic key pairs for identity creation & management.

It's completely permissionless but it comes with zero cost to the key creator. In order to be heard amongst the noise that comes with zero cost communication, you need to demonstrate PoW.

This is more than just a Twitter replacement. This is the start of humans scaling trust in cyber space. It's really hard for me to articulate why that's important, but I feel it deep within.

We still need improvements to private key management & identity transfer but that will come.

I agree and I believe I hear what you're throwing down. Our reputation is our identity.

Yes - right now it doesn't mean a whole heap other than some online engagement & maybe a tip or 2.

Keys can provide access to restricted rooms & trusted spaces. This is not confined to just cyberspace, it could be easily extended into meatspace.

Exciting times. 🤙

💯

Beautifully written

Thank you sir.

NostRep (whatever it looks like) FTW!

A Web-of-Trust badge score displayed on profiles?

What do you think of member.cash?

Shitcoin.

Bad implementation, or bad idea?

It's a Bitclout and Nostr client all in one. Bitclout is a Shitcoin. No thank you.

Never heard of it. Whatever it is, I’m not pointing at specifics with my point, nor do I think was the OP.

No idea, but the kernel of the idea is there. As you say, the beauty here is organic signal > noise and, for now, no algos.

The algos will be built, however. They are inevitable. Nostr’s architecture lets us do something brand new. No centralised curation necessary.

I also feel it

✊🏾💜

Very well said, the human trust element is huge too I feel. BBS and iRC feels be back!

And humans scaling trust in cyber space... is the first step to scaling trust in the expanding physical space of the globalized world that tribe scale human heuristics have thus far handled rather poorly in many regards.

My comments on it the other day:

@note1e4a0zv9d3nfnv49sfept06v2ggyal8fv6jzr97ax3rjlfv04t9gqxp7tya

I understand the problem paid relays are trying to fix.

But there are consecuentes. paid relays might end up being the worst case scenario for a centralised network, where the data of the most active users goes ruining away of bad latency and spam.

I think there is another way, I might be end up creating a NIPfl for that😄

as long as we have a multitude of choices, we'll be okay.

💜✊🏾

100% expect there to be hundreds to thousands of payment provider plug-ins, for different types of relay implementations in the future.

#[2] built Nostream and is one of the most friendly relays to get started with as well as one of the most configurable. ZBD API felt like a perfect fit, but I'm sure there will be plenty others.

We NEED there to be plenty others, including self-hosted solutions. A distributed network is only strong because it has 0 single points of failure.

So a decentralized Twitter should be centralized to fight spam. 😆

That's what you got from this? Yikes. How in the world do you think that paid relays are centralization? How in the world would paying for a relay based on the operator's reputation be centralization?

Important 👆. Well written. 🙏🏾

Thank you sir.

Thankyou brotha. 🙏🏾

It's true that paid relays can lie, but I feel the market should sort itself out. It doesn't have the same allure as an altcoin because there's no concept of a relay going "to the moon." You just might get decent speed and low spam, which is actually quite boring and not something people will put a ton of money into.

Essentially what makes altcoins so nefarious is that there's a greater fool theory at work that can end up justifying any price. This isn't the case in most markets, including ones for relays.

It's not about mooning, it's about getting scammed, paying 20K sats to use a relay and then a week later getting rugged. This potential exists. We as a community need to not just add every single paid relay that pops up. They need vetted. We need to build our Web-of-Trust.

Yeah my point is that this is just how paying for stuff works. You don't always get what you pay for, and markets tend to sort these kinds of things out, especially when what's being sold is a commodity (relays are easily commoditized).

Reputation will build organically and risk of being scammed seems very low to me given the small price people will be willing to pay for spam filtering.

Will a paid relay protect me from the spam of @Cameri

You can turn on the PV filter

Nope. You can use a client block feature.

I wanted to add a Smile after my text, so please dont take it personal :=]>< plebs together strong <3