I think we basically agree, value for value should be the basis of a modern society.
But, the criticism is towards the (lack) of freedom, let me explain. I would understand that by enabling the option, the user himself would no longer see the "like" icon. But, and very importan, for this to affect the experience of others is a red, red line for me.
Makes sense. But I am trying to find a balance. What if people don’t want to receive likes? With zaps it’s easy, remove LN and good to go. With likes, there was no way. Sure I can disable notifications for them, but that was the only option.
Likes is not a great signal. It tells nothing to the people. We are conditioned to like, heart, plus one, etc. Even big players moving away from likes.
With nostr and no algo, likes play no role, just a distraction. As I said, it’s relics of the past that we just can’t let go of.
🐶🐾🫡
That is exactly what I propose, when this option is activated the user must stops seeing likes. But if others want to continue giving a like, nobody should take this freedom away from them. I don't know if I make myself clear.
I think this intermediate solution could be good for everyone.
I like it when someone likes a post of mine, it shows me their support, and it's a simple, quick and, in my opinion, necessary interaction.
What good conversations #[2] 😀
#[4] here, shit stirrer since the 80’s
Should everyone be forced to accept zaps? If you do not accept zaps I cannot zap you. Likes are legacy stuff, but what purpose do they really serve?
I am not saying they should disappear, just saying we should wonder and talk about it.
As I replied just now, the consumption of resources by likes is very high. If they bring value, then they should be evolved somehow! 🐶🐾🫡
It’s just a head nod while listening… expand it to a full set of emotional reactions and it could have value.
True! I can go with that! 🐶🐾🫡
💜 trust
🤮 disgust
😡 anger
😰 fear
😭 sadness
😁joy
Dunno what to use for the other two 
Case in point. See, with multicultural and multilingual community, fixed set will never work or will be interpreted as intended! 🐶🐾🫡
Can we build a wheel like interface? 🤣🤣🤣 I can just push the 2d slider towards my emotion and have a lil picture of #[4] face reacting to the prompt
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Seriously, it's not a bad idea at all.
Problem is that emotions aren’t that simple… 
But, dual input could pretty much be used to generate all human emotions known to man
Yes Gek, human emotions are known to man
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Dark one incoming…
Mistakes are often an excellent source of comedy. People should love and celebrate their mistakes more, like I do with my son.
Laughing at yourself is a strong quality I’d say
I am serious, this is a very interesting debate. I like this path much more than the other one. #[4] You have very good ideas, I think we should go down this road towards something that describes feelings as accurately as possible. No money, that to me is a far cry from sincere support.
I just don't understand why we want to kill the quickest and easiest way to send a wink (support, ping, call it what you will) to someone.
Yeah, I was looking at it from the introvert perspective last night (which I am, just good at hiding it most days). The like is a silent reminder that you’re there, listening. Forcing the repost is not always appropriate. I just hope that people will understand that they are missing out by not engaging more with the notes. (And that renotes display will be changed)
Introvert here too 😅 Following these conversations with much interest as I come across them. I don’t mind sending/receiving “reactions” but I am trying the Onlyzaps mode for now because it’s new. Even before this feature I often reply with just 1 or 2 emojis a that express more than a like. We see that all over Nostr with 🫂. That’s even how 🤙 became the default reaction on Damus. It started as a popular reply. The absence of a reaction button doesn’t take away that option, and I’m more likely to look at who replied than who reacted.
On the earlier point by Quentin about it being a red line when my settings affect other user’s experience or ability to interact with me, I see it directly. For instance, if I don’t want to receive zaps and I don’t add a lightning address, then I am deciding for all other users that they won’t see a ⚡️ button at all on my posts or profile, and that they can’t zap me. A zap is a Nostr event just like a reaction. Why is it OK for me to limit everyone’s ability to send me a kind-9735 event if I don’t want to receive it, but not a kind-7 event? Or what if future features allow turning off replies on a post, or limiting them to just followers? Turning off DMs?
In each case these would affect how everyone can interact with me, and I think that is the better way to approach it. It puts me in control of setting the boundaries I want on what other people can send me. Forcing me to accept likes/reactions from anyone and everyone on Nostr, sounds far more intrusive than me having the option to not receive them.
Again, I’m not a “never-liker” 😅 and after this experiment may turn them back on, but I do think the way it’s currently implemented puts the right person in control.
Very good point of view. The analogy with the LN address is a good one, but I don't think it can be compared, if I don't have a LN address it's clear that you won't be able to send me sats. But this is as if (in real life) you directly reject any interaction with someone who has no money or way to talk to you directly. Where will that wink, smile, look be, translated to the virtual environment? The like button can evolve, but I don't see anything clear about removing it.
It gives me the feeling that it is an attempt to promote the zaps, to move money. With my friends I love to apply value for value, I help them with a website, they help me with something else. Putting money in the middle usually spoils everything.
What a great conversation, I love it!
I don’t think it is removing option from the user to interact. I think it is very one sided view. If someone posts sad news about something, how do you interpret like! It is extremely limited and easy to misunderstand option that was invented for the sake of algorithms. It has no value. Reply with like, plus one, heart, 🤙🏻, whatever. Still better than the meaningless like, IMHO. And yes, that’s the hill I am choosing to die on. 🐶🐾🫡
I’ll push just a little because it doesn’t remove the ability for anyone to talk to me directly. There are comments for that. And regarding the point about adding or not adding the lightning address, I was simply giving that as an example of a setting I can enable now that affects how everyone can interact with me, but nobody has complained about that as infringing on their experience. Some people really do want to send sats, and I’ve seen several times when users ask someone why they don’t have a lightning address.
I am in agreement with you that not every human interaction needs to have a monetary component. The challenge I find with likes is that whatever meaning they have, and I believe they can be meaningful, has been sullied by years of vanity use and spam on other social networks. “Doing it for the likes.” Experimenting with changes to that is worthwhile.
And yes excellent conversation. I’m enjoying hearing various perspectives on this. Now here’s a nickel for your time 😂 💜🫂
The underlying problem is that we start from years of vain shit-influencers, so the trend is to kill the like. But I think that the like is a light and quick way to express a feeling (here there is a debate on the forms, for example habla.news does solve it very well), we are going to fill the conversations of comments with a 🤙, this for me is going backwards.
Your turn 😀
I imagine fewer people would comment than would click “like” but I see what you mean shout it potentially cluttering replies if they did. We’re actually more in agreement on this than not. I believe likes are a useful way of communicating something sometimes. Where I think we disagree is on who should have control. What I hear you saying is that I should not be able to affect your ability to send me a reaction. I disagree with that. I should have that control. And giving you the option to send it while I simply don’t see it negates their use as a communication tool. At that point it is only to make you feel better for having pressed a button.
It's not a question of feeling better, those who don't have this option activated will also see it, it serves to see what you have liked over time (yourself) and in the other hand you are questioning how the current mute option works, it just works the way I would like the (misnamed) onlyzaps to work.
Don’t mess with introverts when they decide to speak 🫂💜
I’m a talkative introvert (talking once I feel comfortable enough is my way of fighting the urge to retreat inside, so hard to make me shut up once I start and if I shut up for too long, I’m gone, getting lost inside my head while listening. )
I got a super introvert friend, the kind of pleb that you want to cheer when he gets talkative. But you always want to listen when he speaks, not because he is always right, but because you know that he has listened and considered before taking.
Anyway, thank you for attending my psychoanalysis session.
Regarding Onlyzaps
The beauty of Nostr is that if there is a NIP it can be implemented. Relays can decide to support the NIPs they want, Clients can support (or give option to users to enable or disable) the NIPs they wish, plebs can chose their relays and their clients.
I could argue that it’s unfair that Damus does not support long form notes. That my deepest thoughts go unnoticed by most of my network. I could if I wanted to play devils advocate and stir shit up.
…
It’s unfair that NIP23 is not supported by Damus! Couldn’t we at least have the summary and a way to quickly go to full version (maybe giving option in app settings to redirect to a web client for now)
All good points again, fren. As for the support of NIP-xyz, there is always option to contribute to the project via code. If you can’t, find friends who can, or post a bounty. People who develop products have their priorities and no obligations to the user if it’s free. Making new features is hard, maintaining them is even more so! Every line of code added sucks resources and time from the developers! 🐶🐾🫡
Absolutely know that, I am in no way or shape asking for features to be implemented (bugs being fixed however…)
Just a way to present the “likes must stay for everyone, everywhere, forever” argument differently.
Ok, makes sense! 🐶🐾🫂
Should have added a lil sarcastic signature at the end, sorry.
🐶🐾😂🤣🫂
I usually do something to contradict myself in those events, forgot
Sorry I communicate in weird ways sometimes, even for myself then I think about it for days “did I really say: you have the beard of someone who drinks a lot beer…. To someone I had just met… 😳 did I? Yup I did. 🤣
Socializing, tough business to some of us 🤣
*I see it differently … not directly
Mainvolume be like lay off the drugs man when you see me.
#eof
💜🤙
Wouldn’t replying an emoji be just as effective and probably quicker? This is overly complicated and messy. Replies are already a great solution for when more emotion needs to be expressed.
🤔
From a protocol perspective, they’re almost identical anyway. A reaction note uses the “content” field to contain the single character reaction, usually “+” or “👍”, but I’ve seen others like “🐾”. The difference is that reactions use kind=7 whereas regular notes are of kind=1.
A nostr client could choose to interpret and display single-character/emoji reply notes (kind=1) as reactions. This would allow the full range of emoji reactions while adding some friction (takes more steps to post an emoji reply than just tapping a reaction button).
Yet another way to abuse it by the client. If Damus chose to display like as skull, that would definitely be a wrong signal at extreme. So, I say note with sig is way to go. User types in the content, and that is what is displayed! 🐶🐾🫡
Removing likes to foster engagement, not encourage more zaps
🐶🐾🎯
Maybe the UI should show other users your preference. So for example, when I’m looking at your post today, I see a like button and a zap button. Somewhere in the UI it could show me that you don’t see reactions (likes) and prefer content responses.
I don’t know what this UI would look like. It could be a 🤙 emoji inside of a 🚫 or something to show that I can still do the like, but that you won’t see it.
This is just an idea, but you see where I’m going. Your preference for a content response is reasonable. As is my preference to just tap the like button. Whats missing in the UI is a way for you to communicate your preference without inhibiting my range of actions.
Wet solid analytics mate
🤙⚡️
Very good idea, It solves everything and allows everyone to experience it in their own way 💜
On the other hand, nice to meet you 😀
I am curious, what would you get out of a reaction to the post that nobody but you can see? Will simple “ack” I saw it and consider it read be the solution? 🐶🐾🫡
It will be seen by everyone who doesn't have that enabled. And also to know what you have liked before 😀
Then maybe “ack” is it? What if I do not what to have likes display together with my note? What if I don’t want people to sway others by their “reactions”? Should I have that choice? Or should you have a choice to affect my content? 🐶🐾🫡
> What if I do not what to have likes display together with my note?
In the abstract, it is impossible to prevent your users’ clients from asking relays for reactions and aggregating the results. Uncensorability is a foundational principle of the nostr protocol.
It is possible for client implementations to honor your preference and hide that information from other users. Damus is trying this out with OnlyZaps.
Users who don’t want to have that information hidden can choose to use other clients which do not censor reactions.
That’s my point. Having any sort of reactions will impact how it’s perceived and read by other users. I am saying that presence of reactions that are prone to manipulation and misinterpretation is not a good thing. 🐶🐾🫡
So you are questioning the method we have now to mute trolls, they still affect your content, and that's fine. It's up to each of us, (the others) whether this user is a troll to us or not. Applying this to likes, in my point of view, is a winning option.
If it’s only me: I could be using the reaction function as a bookmark. Later, I can browse my likes to read things I had set aside. Or maybe later I want to search through my liked notes to remember some topic or dredge up an old link.
Good point. I used to do that on the Twitter app before they fixed the timeline auto refresh/jump. Maybe bookmark should be where likes used to be in Damus.
Probably would, exploring what coulds… it really is only a 2 x 2D data points that can display fullest of human emotions.
#[3] made the point that emoji can translate differently across culture
This could allow to separate the encoding of the emotion from the display (visual representation) with each culture decoding it it’s own way and users being able to chose via plug in how they wish to decode it
With two quick swipes you could say, this note surprises me and makes me angry! And so on…
“…with each culture decoding it it’s own way and users being able to chose via plug in how they wish to decode it.”
We already have words. This just reinvents them. 😂
🐶🐾🎯
Again, just exploring what could. Words are not 2 data points on a 2 dimensional surface you could broadcast in under 3 seconds.
Yo
… to let someone know exactly how you feel.
1 or two times x:y coordinates, that’s it. To display fullest emotions known to mankind. There must be some potential hiding there somewhere
It would be overly complicated for what you’d get out of it. How often do you check to see if who all reacted to a post and which which reaction they used? We already have 🤙 and ❤️ reactions combined into one list but you only see that if you look at the reactions on that post. Comments are much more efficient for the recipient.
For disclosure, I wish for a future where I can build my simple algo in the client to create “what have I missed” feeds that I can control.
Likes would be useful to keep to give another data input to the algo.
Don’t put too much weight on these ideas I throw out, they just pure exploration. By discussing them with other it helps me to better explore them, collective thinking out loud.
But if I am having a shitty day and I could quickly filter out all the posts that made people angry from my custom algo feed, I’d love to be able to so
The challenge then becomes spam. On Twitter, for instance, someone could go buy hundreds or thousands of likes on a tweet through a 3rd party service. I saw someone do this last year and they won 1M sats in a meme contest because the winner was chosen solely on number of likes. 😅 When likes cost nothing or very little, they become an easy target. When something that costs very little becomes an input into an algorithm that could get your attention, now it becomes an attractive target. An easy attractive way to put information in front of lots of people’s eyes with the hopes of manipulating some into falling for scams, believing fake news, etc etc etc.
Since when forcing people to do something actually works? #[6] is not the only client out there
It has never worked, well sometimes it has 🤣.
But I agree, there are more customers, but it's a pity that the most important nostr client (and the one that works best too 💜) makes these changes without generating a debate first.
My humble opinion, I open the umbrella ☂️☂️☂️☂️☂️☂️☂️☂️😅😅☂️☂️☂️☂️☂️
We are still forgetting that it’s not in release. It’s a test, nobody is forced to do anything! App Store version is still available! 🐶🐾🫡
By you turning on zaps only, that is forcing me 😆 to zap ⚡️
Feel free not to zap me, comment, sure. If this will make you feel better, I’ll remove my LN url just for you. I’ve done it before and I’ll do it again, just say a word! 🐶🐾🫡
That sounds a lot like an ultimatum 😆
Not really, at least not intentionally. What I am trying to say is, everyone should have a choice (to an extent) and we should all respect it! 🐶🐾🫡
All good. We just have to agree to disagree. 😁
That’s the way! I am glad we can actually talk as civilized people! Love you and this place! 🐶🐾🫂💜💜💜
🤙😁
💜🐶🐾
It will be interesting to see what happens when there are more iOS native nostr client choices. If there’s a client that lets me keep using likes, and Damus censors me, then I’m switching.
There are already alternatives, look:
Yeah, maybe I should switch to Test Flight. Though if I did, my likes would already be censored. 😂
Of course, the debate is on the testflight version, that's for sure 🙂
Also the word "force" is very harsh, I mean simply, couldn't it work the same as the current "mute" feature?
In fact I can make a quick shell script now to generate millions of new npubs and post “like” note to any note. 🐶🐾🫡
Yes also with comments, or zaps of 1 sat. Pow is the solution for that 💜
POW on mobile is a literal killer feature. There are places for it, but I think this is not it. 🐶🐾🫡
You think? I didn't have that on my radar, why?
It will use more compute and hence more emu, which results in your phone dying quickly! 🐶🐾🫡
But only for events, so if you are not fishcake or quentin 🤣🤣 and you only create ¿10? events a day should be affordable for a phone, i think
Every milliwatt counts. The cheaper you make it the more abuse you will have. 🐶🐾🫡
Agreed, also, a troller doesnt care about pow. Why would he? He can just run a heavier processing unit to bypass the pow.
The aim is to make it difficult for them, but I think the debate now is not about PoW but about yesterday's update.
Nice to meet you 😀
Nice to meet you too. What was the new update about? Something with zaps only right?
The point of PoW in the context of nostr posts is to make it costly to spam. Trolls have budgets just like everyone else.
NIP-13 describes how PoW can be delegated specifically to address the problem of low-power devices (mobile). One could pay a miner to mine a note’s PoW.
You can do this on https://www.sats4likes.com
I’ve used it to pump a few things on Twitter. The whole thing is manipulated so I have no problem manipulating it to my ends and doing so with Sats to a #Nostrich dev.
Absolutely, then we need to address trustworthiness through a aggregated and uncoruptable trustworthiness rating model, just typing this feels Orwellian but methods of addressing trustworthiness rating at least for commercial exchanges at protocol level could be interesting Trust is hard to earn over time, and easily lost.
I like this approach, but it's as easy as changing the new option so that if you don't want to see them it's fine, but if I want to give you a like it should be fine too.
Nostr is fundamentally freedom (for me), it is true that I have freedom to change my client 🤣, but I think it should be discussed before (just as we are doing 🤣) before launching new features that take away freedom from the user.
The feature is in TestFlight, it’s not launched. We are doing experimentation. Hence I am saying that we should give it time and see how it works. For what I care, I’ll hate it tomorrow maybe! 🐶🐾😂🤣
🐶🐾🫂🤣
There is one more problem that you have to consider, relays. The number off like events and their consumption of resources is unreasonably high! 🐶🐾🫡
nostr:note1gnq2awtr6qugyx3uzmmmhx4afnlzhpv99yu2lmcmkpgk7uqz2v3q099n3u
If we talk about resources we are just shifting the problem to the LN 🤣, I don't think that is the solution.
The protocol is set up like this from the beginning, each interaction is a note, this opens up another very interesting debate as well 🙂
We need to get on nest for that. My fingers are giving up already! 🐶🐾😂🤣😂
Yes!! 💜
But I don't think we have much influence, at least as far as I'm concerned 😅
