lightning is better privacy tech than monero
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Discussion
A blanket statement without specifying the 85% that is actually not better privacy, I think, is more harmful than good. Mention custodians, mention the requirement to run your own node, the need to open channels with nodes that you know won't track. Definitely don't forget to mention your innovation on nostr zaps and the fact that anyone could call up the IRS, look at how many zaps you received/sent from your nostr profile and make the case that these micro transactions were for goods and services. Anyone can ask the IRS to audit anyone on here and the evidence is front and center, not encrypted or hidden. The person who tattles gets 40% of the cut without being taxed on it.
You sound like a champion of moving goalposts
I think both sides could benefit from understanding the arguments better.
I'm convinced that if all lightning proponents ran their own nodes, provided they were able to get some channels setup, would abandon the idea after a few months. Not feasible for individuals to have 1mil sats up for liquidity when you can get forced closed. I can't imagine why people would think this is a scalable solution.
I run a monero node and use a hardware wallet. Never worried about that. My biggest concern with my lightning node is that it's a hot wallet and I don't fucking trust my ability to keep my server secure... Or I don't trust the amount of libraries all of the random programs I like to try not to have a shit ton of attack vectors. Wish there was a way to have a lightning node have to ping my phone or an external signing device of some sort to sign a transaction or whatever and store keys separate from the host. That's not possible right?
I have the oldest running lightning node since 2018 and somehow ive been fine
u r epic
Do you run wget "random scripts off the internet" | bash 🤣 Like I have stated other places... i am fucking retarded. I don't mind keeping a couple grand on one, but would love to really open up some fat channels and feel secure about it like my hardware wallet does.
I don't have a problem with you and Super debatably saying Lightning is roughly on par or having certain privacy advantages over Monero the way you use it...the problem is you're like the 1% of users who use Lightning this way jb
At least tell your audience the extra steps that they need to do to achieve that "better privacy" 👀
And second FCMP++ on Monero will make your ligthning better privacy a joke, and it's less than a year of being applied 😘
And last but not least by default Monero has more privacy by default that ligthning 😉
Monero has less privacy by default than lightning
By default, in monero, the sender is unencrypted, the recipient is unencrypted, the amount is only partially encrypted, the transaction is published for all to see, and p2p traffic is not encrypted.
By default, on lightning, everything is fully encrypted (sender, recipient, amount, and p2p traffic) and the transaction is never published.
more disingenuous bullshit from STN
the sender and receiver and amount are perfectly hidden (its more like a hash than formal encryption) and not tied to any IRL information
the fee is known.
its true its published to a blockchain.
its false to say LN txs are not published. they're "published" to the peers that route the payment.
the routing is more like an onion actually, with intermediate nodes not being able to see all the details. then with bolt12 it changes even more
yeah
they see their own details.
just to say its incorrect to say that no data leaks to anyone when a LN tx is made
I think they're both imperfect, key difference being it's way too hard to get to a good privacy level with lightning, so almost nobody bothers. the DNM people are fine staying where they are for now.
the main difference afaict
with LN
you cant actually quantify your privacy
and like you say, high barrier to entry.
with Monero
you have quantifiable privacy
with a low barrier to entry.
STN constantly fudding as if this was NOT the case
and people like nostr:nprofile1qqsr9cvzwc652r4m83d86ykplrnm9dg5gwdvzzn8ameanlvut35wy3gpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejszxrhwvaz7tmddahxzepwdf3r2dfwvdhk6w3cxqurqqgdwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkc0v9nh0 making stupid blanket statments,
are harmful to real world user privacy.
a normal person who just wants to buy a bag of MDMA is not going to attempt self-custody lightning. you would have to be stupid to think a normal person would go through that much trouble. they could either use a custodial lightning wallet or monero. now why doesn't anyone head on over to the DNM forum known as Dread and try to convince everyone to either learn 80 bajillion new steps or give up self-custody? they're not going to do either.
except that no dnms even accept LN
exactly because privacy is hard to quantify.
This one does: http://ikduzlpwcc4khvj27rlywgic6eaxj5w3brj4uo54z2sfyj7b2hfrepyd.onion
LN is also an accepted payment method on robosats and bisq, and p2p exchanges are treated identically to DNMs by governments
Thanks for responding... and I think I want to get out of this can of worms. I just didn't understand how escrow would work with lightning. Don't want to create any hate among people 🩹 Y'all simmer down now.
Have any exchanges implemented lightning? Could that work with escrow?
List of exchanges that implemented lightning:
Sorry, meant markets... As in dark markets :)
none
zero
zilch
(although hes going to jump on and say that Robosats and Bisq are DNMs beCaUsE tHeyRE On tHE daRkNeT aNd tHEYre MaRkeTS)
it's very silly to say the term "darknet market" means something other than "a market on the darknet" just so you can ignore robosats & bisq, who face the exact same risks as other DNMs but rely on LN's privacy to avoid getting caught
it's also silly for you to ignore this DNM: http://ikduzlpwcc4khvj27rlywgic6eaxj5w3brj4uo54z2sfyj7b2hfrepyd.onion
being decentralized exchanges of basically negligible economic activity,
they absolutely do NOT face "the exact same risks"
*maybe* they could pop somebody for some minor tax evasion
but its almost completely irrelevant from an LE perspective
not to mention the jurisdictional complications,
when everyone agrees drugs are bad.
so no
absolutely not
and i have trouble believing your really think so yourself.
Paxful's ceo went to prison precisely because the feds treat p2p exchanges as unlicensed money transmitters and money launderers, which are also charges they bring against operators of drug-dealing DNMs like Alphabay:
Robosats and Bisq operate on tor so as to not get caught and go to prison, and LN helps with that, because it's tor for money
its not "Tor for money"
not until its tested and proven itself.
stop trying to sell it as production ready.
Paxful took possession of user funds.
a clearnet central point of failure with good UX and volume.
disingenuous.
again.
yeah, robotsats and bisq operators *could* become targets with more adoption.
but the cost/benefit for LE is NOT equivalent to (what the rest of the world except for you refer to as) DNMs.
Goalposts are cheap on Amazon.
he says Paxful is a DNM that got busted
and you think *I'm the one moving goal posts?
No he didn't, but it shows how subpar the current state of your reading comprehension is.
He said paxful case is a precedent on why they'd go after all p2p exchanges - which he equated to the risk profile.
Amazon.com
and its a big fucking leap
as i explained.
your "explanation" was basically "well bisq isn't very big yet so they aren't at risk"
which is, at least in my opinion, a very silly thing to say
you have to start using good privacy when you're small so that it protects you when you grow big
hence tor + LN
what is said is
the cost/benefit for LE is insufficient.
and makes it a very different thing than an *actual DNM*
Receiving on Lightning is not great when it comes to privacy but I know little to nothing about how monero compares
Prove it.
(you cant)
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(but you CAN prove privacy guarantees on Monero)
What keeps Lightning from being classified as a "shitcoin."
I have about zero clue how Lightning works.
NOTE: Puts on flame suit.
Lightning is bitcoin
That's what I keep hearing but I am a retard when it comes to understanding how it works.
What is Lightnings design intent or what does Bitcoin lack that gives Lightning a purpose?
I just always have a hard time grasping the general concept of removing "Bitcoin" from chain to fondle it and maybe stick it back on chain.
Can you Hodl Lightning (Sats?)?
Bitcoin transactions are data and need storage space, the blockchain that stores the transactions when you publish them has intentionally limited space (~4mb every 10 minutes) to keep the resource requirements of downloading it and verifying it low (aka keep it decentralized). Miners include the transactions that pay the highest fee per size (sat/vb). This means if a lot of people want to do transactions the price to get your transaction confirmed will increase. This doesn't scale to small payments, coffee, zaps etc...
Lightning is essentially a batching protocol for bitcoin transactions. Opening a channel means you lock bitcoin to a 2of2 multsig output between you and your channel partner, which then can only be spent by signatures of both parties. Once this is confirmed you can just exchange signed transactions between both parties (e.g. 20% of the Channel UTXO to you and 80% to Bob) but never publish them to the miners to actually get mined. This has very low cost as you just transfer data over a network but don't have to get included in the blockchain. To 'close' the channel you can broadcast this signed transaction and get your bitcoin back into a output only you control. The Lightning protocol specifies how all of this works (construction of the transactions, communication, cryptography, constants etc...). One downside of lightning is you have to at least sometimes go online to check if your channel partner tries to scam you by publishing an older transaction. So if you "hodl lightning sats" you essentially hold presigned bitcoin transactions allowing you to spend from a 2of2 multisig output. If you use a custodial lighting wallet someone else controls the transactions and keys and you more or less only have a bank account with them.
This whole back and forth is so stupid. Super is lying by omission and it's more nuanced than hes presenting it.
The first 3 points are undeterministic edge cases that only apply to senders.
Receipients are unlinkable to the original address and only appear on the blockchain once meaning they could be any Monero user that exists.
Amounts are completely hidden - hes being purposely ambiguous referring to miner fees.
Addtionally, because of it's complexity, how many are using Lightning the way maybe you and Super use it? Almost all of them are using custodial lightning wallets with no privacy from the custodian, hackers, and any governments that compels them to save and give them that info.
cypherpunks know what fcmps++ is
hey #bitcoin maxis
you shilling your pet science project (which is admittedly cool and I use it)
as a finished, production-ready solution for the problem of L1 transparency
has a negative impact on user privacy.
#monero is still the GOAT.
🍿👀🥤
that says a LOT as lightning is a massive PITA😁
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Off topic question: what laptop are you using? I’m in the market for a new one.
thinkpad x1 carbon. I got the gen5 like 10 years ago. best laptop i’ve ever owned and still use.
This is a great answer. The Gen11 was on my short list. 🫂
I have one of those. Great computer. But I mostly use a mac now.
apple silicon is so good, but im more productive in the nixos desktop environment i crafted for myself.
Would you recommend older Thinkpad models, or would you upgrade to the newer generations if you had to?
Any strong preference or build-quality thoughts on the later gens?
We can (and need to) do much better, even if this is true.
There's a whole body of research to be created on deanonymizing and then combating that.
Bigger network, longer paths, less correlation, trampolines all help. But mainly we need reliability so good that users can reasonably trade it off for a harder-to-track payment (ie wallets can do this for them...)
