The fact that nostr:npub12vkcxr0luzwp8e673v29eqjhrr7p9vqq8asav85swaepclllj09sylpugg has a backend in no way threatens #Nostr as a protocol and open network.
Think of it as a full stack client. Backend client code + front end client code. The source of truth remains the relays, and users maintain complete control over their keys and handle.
Don't get gaslight by butthurt devs. #Primal is taking the #Nostr experience where users want without lockin, censorship, or moats.
Can you elaborate for us non-developers what a backend is for Primal? I have no idea, but am interested in learning about it. đ
Most clients have a front end application, a UI, that interfaces directly with relays as their data source.
#Primal has a UI and also a backend server that, together, interface with relays, enhancing the experience in a way that just a UI couldn't.
The result is a better experience.
This is literally no different than twitter then. Just use twitter if you want a single server. The entire point of nostr is the ability to connect to different relays so you donât have a view of the network that is controlled by a single entity.
Are you regarded?
Twitter's source of truth is the Twitter database.
#Primal's source of truth is the user's own relays.
Twitter owns the user handles.
#Primal doesn't.
The word is "retarded," retard, and no, Will doesn't suffer from your affliction.
The source of truth only matters if you can verify it. You are trusting their relay to do that for you. They can forge posts or even swap out zap addresses this way if they wanted to. if they didnât want to it could still happen if their relay is hacked. Donât trust, verify.
You're on one.
Everything you just mentioned is possible with a front end client.
Having client code execute in the user interface and a server does not undermine #Nostr, nor does #Primal have an incentive to do so.
Do you let other people run your bitcoin node? Verify your bitcoin? Would you run a âbackendâ bitcoin client and let a third party verify your transactions? You sound like someone who would store their coins in coinbase, since you seem like a fan of backend clients.
Waiting for you to provide a technical argument.
Can Damus "forge posts or swap zap addresses" using client code?
You canât verify what backend code is running, you can compile and verify what code is running on damus ios and damus notedeck. No backend to trust. This is 101 stuff man.
Even if you looked at backend source code it could still get hacked and swapped out. This is a real concern. If the caching relay started serving zap addresses that didnât match profiles⌠you could be sending sats to hackers on all profiles. This canât really happen on iOS due to how code signing works, ios verifies binary signature chains from apple and the developer.
Immutable container runtimes are becoming more and more prevalent.
It should be possible to build a cryptographically verifyable container for every commit on Github, then automtically deploy that container to an immutabl container runtime engine in such a way that the entire live production backend could be verified by users.
nostr:npub16c0nh3dnadzqpm76uctf5hqhe2lny344zsmpm6feee9p5rdxaa9q586nvr can you have the devs chew on this? I think its in Primal's best interst to put this type of concern trolling to rest.
Immutable container runtimes sounds powerful, however I don't see how it can be proved/enforced. Do you have any pointers to how they work? nostr:nprofile1qqswlew3yr0ses5slf6gwflmgkkysl926drdfu3f82cxn68srlz3nqgpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduq3samnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwwdhx7un59eek7cmfv9kqz8thwden5te0dehhxarj94c82c3wwajkcmr0wfjx2u3wdejhgve4fay do you know anything about this?
Well container images are by definition immutable since you know what hash you are running on, if you pair that with remote attestation you get crypographically provable environment which is also the fundamental part of confidential computing
1. Client code *can* forge posts and swap zap addresses.
2. Server code can augment the #Nostr experience in ways UI-only clients can't. This is why #Primal is winning.
3. Attestation for live server code is a real issue, but with primitives like runc/containerization, something like this is getting closer to being possible.
4. #Primal could rug their users using a rogue build on the server just like Damus could on the client. The reason these things don't happen is that the risk is destroying the project's reputation and the return is a paltry sum.
This is 101 stuff man.
note156x0nyw5wlthztyne4uaekvffu9hhmh7lhl5u3yskkvksvkavhxsmvp48h
Theres nothing primal is doing right now that canât be done with a no-backend client.
The hack risk of your client trusting zap addresses from a trusted backend is too high, money could be sent to the wrong place, this would tank nostrâs credibility.
A centralized server has complete control over what you view, they have censored users on the past on trending.
They have complete control to manipulate follow counts to make people look more popular and others not, the counts donât match up at all with other indexers.
The server can go down leading to the app not working, leading to people viewing nostr as unreliable.
The wallet is heavily kycâd and doesnât work in many places including where i live.
The system is very brittle, and is set to implode the second they run out of money, and can easily lead to a very easy to censor experience without much effort from governments and ISPsâŚ
but hey, what do i know, im just a âbutthurt devâ
Look, I'm trying not to embarrass you, but it's clear you don't know what you're talking about.
It's not 2000 anymore; servers have immutable, verifyable runtimes that can't be hacked the way you are talking about.
It is possible, just not common practice, to provide full attestation of server code so that users can verify (byte by byte) that build A is running in immutable container B.
note156x0nyw5wlthztyne4uaekvffu9hhmh7lhl5u3yskkvksvkavhxsmvp48h
Primal doesn't need your permission to make a full stack client.
They can and should provide end to end attestation, from source to live production instance, of their server code.
Users aren't locked in in any meaningful way. Easy on, easy off.
sorry, you have no clue. There is no such thing, even if there was, noone is running that tech. There is a 99.9999% chance most code is running on mutable architecture. Do you just make stuff up to sound like you know what youâre talking about?
At damus we run the closest thing to immutable architecture (nixos), but its always mutable, you can always run whatever you want once yourâre in the machine, unless you have some custom crazy os and hardware like apple private ai.
It is completely possible and the fact that you can't be honest about that says a lot.
1. Containers are sealed and verifiable, cryptographically, down to the last byte.
2. Immutable container runtime engines exist. I haven't been in the scene for a few years, but both AWS and Google Cloud were experimenting with such things before I retired.
You're flailing.
Cool i will wait for this magical system to be in place where a client verifies attestations from a container, i dont see what this gains over certs and how the client would know what attestations are valid without trusting the server anyway.
Clearly you don't.
You sound like a jerk more than you sound helpful.
Did you âretireâ or did you get fired for harassing the manager and telling him how bad of a job everyone was doing?
I'm not the one campaigning against a competing project using dishonest claims.
I donât see your counter argument
It appears jbâs method would work - dumb relay, smart client. Thatâs what nostr is.
If youâre proposing a highly auditable smart relay, then Iâm out. Thatâs btc cash or alt mentality. Plebs will run the network. It needs to scale. We arenât going to run some new AWS-tech in our garages that you only barely heard about unless you can provide links and show evidence
we need gossip to scale and decentralize nostr too, plebs running nodes is the path forward. I really donât even see how a single proprietary relay even works at scale, unless itâs just bluesky and twitter all over again.
You clearly weren't around since the beginning. Primal is to nostr what Coinbase is for Bitcoin. The dark side of the yin yang. the necessary evil universal balance requires.
I was, but I simply disagree with that characterization.
It's true that the purity group think has imagined #Primal to be some threat, but actual engineers can think through it and see: it's just a full stack client.
Codebase is actively hostile to user funds. I use #Primal every day; in what way am I being exploited or trapped?
You don't have to agree, which wont change my opinion, same as you don't agree with JB.
nostr:nprofile1qqsr26r4lltjnvrwadxp67ns58m4qpzaqemhf5sup7hlujhjh7t296qprpmhxue69uhhqun9d45h2mfwwpexjmtpdshxuet5qy8hwumn8ghj7mn09eehgu3wvdeqzrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz77f8s05 shut up!!! you left uss alone building on nostr in the hardtimes. Don't get involved đŤ
Primal clients read from the caching service and write directly to the userâs relays. We chose a set of tradeoffs based on what we are trying to accomplish: best UX possible. Weâve been very transparent about it from Day 1. See my blog post from March 13, 2023 - the day we launched Primal. I still think that caching services are not only great for UX, but also a legitimate way to help scale Nostr once we hit millions of users. They could even improve censorship resistance, since anyone can stand them up and create more copies of Nostr events.
Having said all that, the Primal stack is evolving and becoming more capable on the client as well. One can imagine peer-to-peer transfers between clients that have client-side databases, like Primal for Android. I think Nostr will have it all: relays, indexers, caching services, client p2p transfers. It will be very hard to stop.
Claiming that there is only one way to properly build Nostr clients and that everyone must choose exactly the same set of tradeoffs is silly. For example, gossip/outbox purists might take issue with how Damus works.
Everything we build at Primal is open sourced under the most permissive MIT license. I believe we offer the only open source indexer for Nostr (someone please correct me if Iâm wrong). Anyone can stand up and run their own caching instance. Other projects have done so in the past. Primal users hold their keys and can move to another client at any time if they donât like how our product evolves.
On a personal note Will, you constantly fud Primal. You tried to cancel us before, joining semisolâs cEnSoRsHiP nonsense campaign. Your latest initiative - trying to impose rules on what can be called a Nostr client - is also an attempt at cancelling. I donât know what to make of it because you are always very friendly in person. We spent a considerable amount of time together, and you never raised these issues with me face-to-face. Why not? On the contrary, you always seem to have kind words for Primal when we talk.
Iâve never said a bad word about Damus or any other project. I want to be on good terms with all Nostr builders, but you are making it hard with posts like this.
đŤĄđ
đŤĄ
I think he's just giving honest criticism of the tradeoffs and is probably annoyed that someone is claiming to understand all of the tradeoffs while writing off some deficiencies as inconsequential.
I use both clients, they keep each other in check.
Since you've chosen to call out Will. Tell us why he was booted from the main stage in Prague while Primal literally took over the stage and booth? Or, tell us why funding was held back by a certain platform (where you apparently have a seat on the nostr grants board) felt that it was time to support Damus only AFTER the human rights foundation stood up? Or, should we talk about comments dropped about Will during dinner events in Prague?
"Iâve never said a bad word about Damus or any other project" - bullshit
Will and Damus weren't booted from the stage. In fact, from the very beginning talks, when we were working on the program, we had Will on the panel.
Will decided he did not want to participate on his own. He felt that people were buying main stage talks. He didn't like how the packaging of booth and stage content were merged together.
I was actually saddened by this. I had been speaking to Vanessa and trying to get him to come and have him participate in all of it.
On a side note, I specifically remember one video call where nostr:nprofile1qqsdv8emcke7k3qqaldwv956tstu40ejg663gdsaayuuujs6pknw7jspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqprpmhxue69uhhqun9d45h2mfwwpexjmtpdshxuet5qyf8wumn8ghj7ur4wfcxcetsv9njuetnn9mexk said "c'mon, it's Will, if course we have to have him in stage for this panel."
Sadly, I just couldn't make everyone happy. I tried my hardest.
As for comments about Damus or Will at dinner, that wasn't a dinner I was at or heard.
Will is my dude and will always be my dude. đŤđŤđŤ
Still waiting for you to reveal those tools for being done with Gleason's bridge bullshit that you said "we" already had as of last night. Were you lying and gaslighting and wasting time because your bullshit was being called out aggressively, or did "we" really have those tools all along?
hey man. I decided to open Primal and I saw this reply. Primal doesn't follow my mute list on Amethyst. so yes, the tools do work quite well, depending on the client. as long as I continue to use Amethyst, I'll continue to never see your notes. as I said yesterday, the tools we have do work quite well. I was wrong in implying that they work on all clients though. some implement mutes differently. sorry for the confusion there.
No confusion - you were bullshitting. I will continue pointing this out. Ban me or kill me over it you fucking glowie piece of shit
There may be a "nostr community" today because nostr is small. But nostr is not designed to be, nor will it stay a small cohesive community. Any number of communities that are at total odds with each will exist on nostr as it grows.
I think you either replied in the wrong place or misunderstood something, this doesn't seem to connect
That final sentence seems so insincere, it almost feels aggressive.
Be better.
đ¤Ž
Don't know which echo chamber you're a part of, but everything you said is pure imagination. See Derek's response about the booth. Funding? Me sitting on a grants board? LOL. Never have, nor have I ever applied for a grant.
Same echo chamber as the people who've told me this. You know, the circle of Bitcoin whales and/or OGs is very small. So you're not on the board, fair enough. Step down from your horse, you're not flying as high as you might think.
nostr:npub16c0nh3dnadzqpm76uctf5hqhe2lny344zsmpm6feee9p5rdxaa9q586nvr see, eventually people start to see the details adding up. Misleading⌠thatâs what you are. So was your marketing, so are your investors, so are the other projects they fund. Misleading
If the primal client isnt ALSO writing to the caching relays this will continually lead to people's replaceables (follows, lists, etc) inadvertently wiping out what the user wants it to be. Your caching service is NOT UPDATING at an appropriate pace for this flow model
This is not right, keep a friendly attitude.
For the record I use both clients and will continue to use both.
I was a Damus maxi at heart but over time the features became stale. All I can do on Damus is scroll notes and zap. It did absolutely nothing for content discovery.
I was then intrigued about primal after hearing all the great features the team was building on Odellâs pod.
Once I tried primal the user experience was much better. I paid for legendary status to help fund development and enjoy any new features the team comes up with in the future.
But the beautiful thing about switching clients is I was able to recover lost DMs that were no longer showing up in Damus. Plus all of my notes and contacts were intact. Switching clients doesnât mean the other is useless. I am sure once the Damus team starts to focus on discovery I may switch back and contribute funds to that team (which I have I am team purple!)
I say this because I am thankful for the development of both platforms and discussions like these I hope will end well for the user with more robust features and the overall preservation of freedom.
Accusing Will of fud and cancellation attempts looks weak.
Seems like it makes more sense to just call Primal a nostr mirror instead of a nostr client. If what you're doing is better than what other clients are doing, what's wrong with recognizing it with different wording?
âno different than twitterâ is weak FUD that needs to be called out
Dear nostr:nprofile1qqsdv8emcke7k3qqaldwv956tstu40ejg663gdsaayuuujs6pknw7jspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqprpmhxue69uhhqun9d45h2mfwwpexjmtpdshxuet5qyf8wumn8ghj7ur4wfcxcetsv9njuetnn9mexk about friendship I, on the other hand, would like to understand why you gave me the nip-05 isolabellart@primal.net and direct link https://primal.net/isolabellart and now you tell me that being an early adopter I will get it for free only until June 2025 and then I will have to pay.
In my house gifts are not paid for.
Have a nice day đŤđ¨
Beautiful said and I reel the same. Thatâs why I got yearly at nostr:npub12vkcxr0luzwp8e673v29eqjhrr7p9vqq8asav85swaepclllj09sylpugg and struggling to find value at current current on why to upgrade with nostr:npub18m76awca3y37hkvuneavuw6pjj4525fw90necxmadrvjg0sdy6qsngq955 though I do use Damus more because of the NWC is smooth for my connecting with my node. Plus the UX on Damus looks and feels better. Primal is better in most other aspects I would say so I use both. Damus mostly on phone and primal on desktop because notedeck just isnât Giving right now.
- Yogi
Options are good. Open source is good. Vigilance is good. Criticism is good. FUDâing is beta coded drama maxxing that demonstrates a lack of emotional control
If it makes you feel any better i would levy the same criticism against any other client that has a centralized relay that it reads from. Maybe just make this more obvious to your users so I donât have to continually troubleshoot their issues every day.
It's very obvious in our network settings. Which Primal users' issues are you dealing with every day?
Can primal please show reactions. It must be frustrating for users to only see + and đ¤ while they receive many more.
This honestly is my biggest desire right now for Primal and the single thing that keeps me using Damus and Nostrudel if I'm on mobile or desktop.
It stinks because people are engaging (even if it is negligible) and I'd like to be able to return volley.
Primal including other reactions would also make nostr's network effect less biased in favor of centralization-minded people.
Right now, Primal's trending feeds are basically nostr's biggest content discovery system, and the trending system is biased to favor the opinions of people who use Primal instead of apps that support emoji reactions, since Primal doesn't count those reactions.
This meme I posted a little while ago is a good example. It currently has no engagement according to Primal, but nostrudel shows 2 reactions from 2 different npubs, which would generally be enough to get into the 1h Trending feed these days, possibly attracting more engagement. It's a subtle bias with a strong effect.
Important caveat: it's possible that if these reactions were counted, then 2 wouldn't be enough to get into Primal's trending feed anymore. But it often only takes 1 reaction, so it couldn't be too far off.
My DVMs still count them. They are available in primal. At least those who are not personalized.
Iâm sorry miljan, but for non-tech people itâs not obvious from the network settings.
I may not be a developer, but I wish I had known this before subscribing to the premium
What kind of issues do users raise that are caused by using both primal and damus or between users of each? cc nostr:npub1zafcms4xya5ap9zr7xxr0jlrtrattwlesytn2s42030lzu0dwlzqpd26k5
Your passion is showing. You're critical because you want what's best for Nostr.
You could have just said your autism is showing but ill take it
Dude, it has taken me years to figure this out. đ I am overly anal about some things and I used to just think I'm just an asshole sometimes, but now I understand. And it's thanks to me being a father and witnessing this with my son first hand. Sometimes we just get hyper focused on minute details.
Still waiting for you to stop doubling down on gaslighting and time-wasting. Admit those are what you were doing here, not merely being "confused" - and if you want to apologize, offer substantial help with the same power you've abused here, or a relinquishing of that power, instead of empty words.
nostr:note1tmqd0zsehqw2cnw3vdmvrejj9p7am03xv6r68zmqv2cecl86dwwqke8gqe
đthis is how you respond.
The last sentence is perfection.
đżđżđżđżđżđżđżđżđżđż
Can you write docs for the caching service?
Yes, we need better docs. We try to make it easy to stand these things up from our repo, but definitely hit us up if you need help. We've helped other teams stand them up in the past.
You know what else stores the whole network's data multiple times? Bitcoin.
The worst case scenario for Primal is that it becomes like the Bluesky BGS. But that is a hypothetical fear. And it's also a best case scenario? Because we would have a ton of users? But importantly, apps like Damus already exist, and a foundation is laid for a "free" side of Nostr that will never work perfectly but will serve a community who truly needs it, which will continue to grow. Both are inherently needed, and that is the true power of Nostr.
đŞđťđĽđŤĄ
does the caching service use a user's relay list to build the cache?
I have started using primal, when not in wifi, since today because the cache will use less data than Amethyst.
That said, if it's not caching every relay every user uses its a pretty significant tradeoff and centralising force. it would be good if users could see which relays they read from are being cached by Primal.
How can you be tryi g for the best UX when you don't have amber login?
nostr:npub16c0nh3dnadzqpm76uctf5hqhe2lny344zsmpm6feee9p5rdxaa9q586nvr this could of interest to you as feedback:
https://primal.net/e/note1a6je0n5kv6ee5kk4c3pk7rstgmghrk98xx9cs7thz9s5nj6p46dshd7zl5
đI knew I was right about Primal.
Iâm a Damus maxi. Always will be.
Damus goes south, I go south. Literally. Iâm thinking of moving south at some point.
Hi. Conveying important ideas to many people can be more difficult than it seems and there is a high risk of not being understood or putting the emphasis wrong. Put your ego aside and try to think about the common users and values, if you want to build something big or convey your concerns. Otherwise, everything will be as before, and is it worth starting then.
> The hack risk of your client trusting zap addresses from a trusted backend is too high, money could be sent to the wrong place, this would tank nostrâs credibility.
This is an argument against zaps. They add nothing but unnecessary risk.
I thought the zap addreses where stored in a local cache. having it in the backend would be innecessesarily wrong, I give you that.
Their should be different sources of indexers and should have a Merkel root that contains all events that attestate for each post so u could audit it.
Primal still does t have amber login when the feature was requested a year ago and many smaller clients have that feature.... It's improper when key rotation doesn't exist to have users pasting their nsec all over town #nsex
Primal is the macOS of nostr clients đ¤Ž
This is the way.
Run it yourself!!! đââď¸
I canât believe I spent my few seconds of life to read this thread of retarded laser guy arguing with jb đ¤
Any way, so just for his small left sideđ§ Iâm missing a note likes or comments on primal and canât see them vs Damus, Amethyst and other clients! Now let him figure out why! Thatâs just simple explanation for his left side cell
I can verify what I see on Primal outside of Primal. Their code open source. I trust them to be honest but I'm not solely dependent on them.
But they are not honest, in the beggining they blocked and shadowbaned people here, the ones that are here from the beggining know what they've done.
I've been here since then. What have they ever hidden? The code is open source. nostr:npub16c0nh3dnadzqpm76uctf5hqhe2lny344zsmpm6feee9p5rdxaa9q586nvr has already detailed this better than I can already. You can take advantage of Primal's search feature and find it for yourself.
So if you are here from the beggining did you remember when Onyx and Ralf were manually shadowbanned?
No.
Ask them, many people saw in real time that happening.
nostr:npub1de6l09erjl9r990q7n9ql0rwh8x8n059ht7a267n0q3qe28wua8q20q0sd
Can you confirm what im saying about Ralf and Onyx being shadowbanned on primal on the beggining, or i am telling a lie?
Find that commit in their repo.
I don't give a fuck to what they have on there repo, i was here when censorship on Primal happened, i saw that with my fucking eyes, and i wasnt the only one that saw that..
That shadowbanning definition was cringe. No one took it seriously. Including the guys who were "impacted" by it.
As I recall the story:
1) Primal comes out with a primitive Trending algo (v1) to offer new ways for Discovery on nostr
2) Semisol & Ralf find way to game it. And they game it ad absurdum. Effectivel trolling and taking a piss at Primal's first attempt at Discovery service.
3) Primal manually excludes them from the Trending eligibility. (~ primitive v2l
4) Semisol & Ralf start screaming "shadowbanning".
5) More people start screaming.
6) Primal publicly confirms "Yes, we've manually excluded them".
I'm not a developer and I'm not very technical with how all the moving parts work. What I know is mostly from my own experience. I was here from the beginning, and I remember how it was. Things barely worked at all. Censorship is, to a large extent, part of the fuel that feeds all of our passion for building on and using Nostr. Not only do I disagree that nostr:npub16c0nh3dnadzqpm76uctf5hqhe2lny344zsmpm6feee9p5rdxaa9q586nvr was shadow-banning anyone, I doubt there was tech available to do that in a Nostr environment (if it can even be done at all), and he certainly wouldn't have wasted his time singling people out with so many far more important things to work on. Sorry, that bucket doesn't hold water on any level. These kinds of accusations being thrown around makes Nostr weaker, not stronger; makes you less credible and the developers you support less likeable. Something was obviously broken - like a relay that was hosting their content, or one of many other things - than from anything nostr:npub16c0nh3dnadzqpm76uctf5hqhe2lny344zsmpm6feee9p5rdxaa9q586nvr would have done on his own. Please be thoughtful and cautious with accusations. I don't see any devils running around in this space. Let's not create any. Okay? đ¤
It was manually done, not something broke, ask everyone who was here what happened and you'll find out.
You can ask miljan too, i doubt he will say that doesn't happen..
Maybe he will say it was because bla bla bla, like he allways do, but it is what it is
I disagree with you, jb55 is totally right if you have a backend you are centralised, you control the data that you fetch from relays and you choose to let users see what's on the relay, but you could easily censor that data if you wanted (or nicely asked by gov)
âNo different than twitterâ??? What an absurd statement. Your hyperbole discredits your argument
Exactly my thought except there is no ads like on twitter .
Damus and Nostr by far my prefer to decentralize social media .
Especially Damus very clean and simple interface with only to reshare and reply .
No amount follower show up or everything . No crowd.
That was a good thought!
it means primals server is aggregating the data for the users.
Its a good bootstrap yes
Anyone complaining hasnât been around long enough to see the tides of change ⌠tech changes ⌠new experiences become normal.
Every platform can be disrupted by a new interface. Seem it from client server to dailup modems. From desktop web to mobile first.
Primal is good. Next?
ill think of it how i want to think of it. based on its actions, bot on its many words.
Solid take
Dumbest take Iâve ever seen. You need to learn computer science/CAP theorem. All the readable data is centralized on one server. That isnât a feature â itâs shitcoiner level centralization.
I worked in software for nearly 2 decades, ding dong.
How does the persistence tradeoffs nostr:npub16c0nh3dnadzqpm76uctf5hqhe2lny344zsmpm6feee9p5rdxaa9q586nvr and friends made have anything to do with the debate at hand : whether or not a full stack client undermines #Nostr.
Please explain to the audience how throwing out CAP theorem, a term for navigating data persistence constraints, as it relates to Primal's cache implementation, supports your presumed argument that the presence of a backend in a client somehow degrades user sovereignty.
âSoftwareâ isnât distributed systems. This isnât Silicon Valley. You clearly donât understand the CAP theorem.
Hereâs a crash course: https://v.nostr.build/Ee5mKyAdvuIlCG9O.mp4
It's a cache, you moron.
You canât change which relays you read from. Itâs not rocket science.
Clearly, there are trade-offs between scalability and UX versus decentralization. No one has found the golden rule to have everything at the same time, and I think it will be a good experience to better understand the dynamics as a social media over a decentralized protocol.
In the end, we cannot find a new path by doing the same thing everyone else is doing, and we can always choose another client if we dislike one or another.
Clearly Laser is going to keep his head in the sand. đ
I hope you all get a chance to see what nostr:npub1xtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsevkk5s said in this tweet below, and if you donât understand what he meant then listen to the video. nostr:npub1qny3tkh0acurzla8x3zy4nhrjz5zd8l9sy9jys09umwng00manysew95gx nostr:npub16c0nh3dnadzqpm76uctf5hqhe2lny344zsmpm6feee9p5rdxaa9q586nvr
And nostr:npub1sg6plzptd64u62a878hep2kev88swjh3tw00gjsfl8f237lmu63q0uf63m, I know youâre probably watching this drama unfold⌠just get in the arena already. Work with Will or Martti. Work with the purists. Make a client yourself, like you alluded to 3 months ago. Donât compromise on the CAP theorem; who makes the client isnât as important as decentralizing the data itself â the client code can live on beyond you.
nostr:note1qxtclv7s4eujrmj0arad2ecyzqvcezpnj9pm4ev9csw9h2p7ljlsl3gkga
Calling it a cache is just a way to distract from the fact that itâs used as a crunch to deliver all the data to all the users. Users canât read data from any other server.
Achieving quick speeds with a centralized server is just a sloppy shortcut that compromises on our values.
crutch*
Hmm nostr:npub1xtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsevkk5s said the primal server was proprietary but after looking further I found it here: https://github.com/PrimalHQ/primal-server
I donât see anyone else running one, but technically relay operators could run this alongside their relay to service Primal users.
Although, it feels like a fork of nostr. Users canât connect to normal nostr relays â therefore it isnât backwards-compatible. The way we built Nestr was:
1) You can pull notes from normal relays
2) You can only pull the Merkle trees and blossom blobs from blossom servers and HORNET Storage servers
We preserved backwards-compatibility. Primal compromised on backwards-compatibility.
And thereâs literally no documentation on how to change which relays the cache pulls from. đ¤Śââď¸ It wasnât built with other people easily running it in mind.
Even if I had documentation to point the primal cache to a relay I host, it would just duplicate a ton of the data.. so inefficient. The goal is to have many relay operators to choose from. Otherwise, weâre all just playing pretend here. LARPingâŚ
Itâs just dumb that a technical tradeoff discussion between me and laser launched into a full blown campaign from odell and miljan to call it fud and odell to call me a liar. Apparently you canât criticize them.
Where are the developers saying iâm wrong? So far it has only been investors and influencers.
Most people *dont* understand that its only reading from a off-protocol server, the relay list is super deceptive, iâm also tired of explaining this to people and people saying im making it up.
Iâm talking about *facts about how things actually work*. its important for people to know this so that they can make informed decisions.
Its not really fair to compare a real nostr clients to a client-single-server model, they are completely different systems with different properties and security models. Can we not talk about this? Noone cares? Ok great, im talking to people who do.
people care.
and youâre not wrong about Primal. Or that it IS misrepresented.
But if you actually want to know why they are responding this way, it has to do with who you are, and the weight your voice carries. IMO, you spoke like you would to a friend about something that bothers you. Buy there is an unspoken expectation that you become much more measured and diplomacy in how you speak about these kinds of things, to preserve others reputations.
It isnât fair, or even right, but it is what it is.
Tech > Politics
ironically, this comment is political. and so are you đ
Engineering trust-minimized, distributed systems is guided by principles beyond mere social consensus/politics.
Just like how the properties of money arenât arbitrary (despite what fiat institutions say) â if you studied the history of money youâd see that principle applies to both in the same way here.
There is always a wild reaction whenever engineering discussions come up. âNostr warsâ. i donât think people realize this is how engineers naturally are.
Itâs the only thing that matters đ¤ˇââď¸
Anyone can build UX.
The cyber hornets are supposed to defend these principles, but they are dwindling⌠we have to do it else no one will.
Hopefully it will attract more of them. đ
if hornets are symbolic of principal conviction in this analogy,
sugar catches more hornets than fire. diplomacy has a more efficient outcome. it has always been thus. especially for a generation prone to conflict.
Burn the bridges to charlatans or be burned by their false principles. Iâve tried to be diplomatic in the past. Iâm done wasting my breath.
I said it 6 months ago⌠specifying the risk of their giant cache layer. Itâs clear what their philosophy is. Shortcuts are quick to ship, but ultimately fragile
âI should be able to go to your profile, open your list of relays, and tap on the new relays I want to connect to. The relays in the list Iâm already connected to can be present too, but with a different icon beside them, just like on Damus.
Preventing users from being able to discover the relays of people they follow is antithetical to nostrâs philosophy of data portability. We should make moving relays as easy as possible rather than relying on Primalâs giant cache layer.â
nostr:note1kzwwr6rj4wqqq9hjw6hvn3zh90c80542nqd2p94ytk828q3nveesy6sy7y
cyber ostriches?
Haha now thatâs a brand đ
Cyber Ostriches Unite https://v.nostr.build/nSc4NtW8oeZA7vK6.mp4
Doesnât have the same ring..
very true. always thinking about how someone might feel, or interpret something takes all the brain power needed to solve the actual engineering problem.đ¤ˇ
With respect
Anyone who works with engineers at arms length knows this is exactly how they naturally are.
High precision high compulsion unwilling to budge a micrometer if doing so could lead to error or harm or embarrassment. In short high signal and noise intolerant. But sometimes stubborn for lack of a better word.
Then of course there are physicistsâŚ.
what's up with physicists?? đ¤
No disrespect meant. Two observations:
In my experience physicists interactions with one another can be easily mis interpreted by outsiders (and I am one).
Eg hyper aggressive attempts to root out errors can appear as mean infighting and egomania or toxicity.
And there is meanness and egomania present in physics of course, itâs just been my experience that outsiders looking in often just donât have the training / exposure / mathematical chops to discern which is which. To make a terrible analogy- if I am not actually on the team, and I was never actually in the game, then I am not in a position to judge the locker room talk afterwards.
I also find physicists get so sharpened by the empiriometric precision required by (and successful in) their field they can get frustrated when that tool does not work well in other areas. They sometimes default to assuming sloppiness in applying the tool rather than realizing it just does not work well everywhere. And if they cannot shake that assumption you get a physicist thinking âfind and root out the errorâ and a non physicist thinking âyou are totally using the wrong toolâ and they talk past one another- sometimes unpleasantly.
Still seeing you on Primal. May this never ever change even though it technically could?
You can change the caching server Iâm pretty sure
