Nostr Web Client

CT 2y ago

I would start migrating asap if you believe in open source and freedom.

Guy Swann 2y ago

Messages lock in man. It’s not a small problem

pleb_world 2y ago

PWA’s !

Rich Nost 2y ago

Progressive web apps

Robert Allen 2y ago

Yes, this is the solution. The www is still relatively free.

Bandwidth Billy 🤠 2y ago

Brah, just build a touch screen device with wifi capability where you can install Nostr clients and a bitcoin wallet. Done.

Alejandro 2y ago

The original iPhone was meant to be a web based platform. It had a few built in apps and Apple only came up with the Store after developers kept asking for the APIs to build with similar permissions.

Web based is the way to go in my opinion.

Byzantine 2y ago

@note1f5642ecv0kvpuyfn8yhm7le3txjnd2sj4xyfx66wwleprus44dgquqd5gm

sperry 2y ago

I think everyone embracing "apps" instead of www is where we went wrong.

I was able to access eBay and facebook without apps on my cellphone long before these gatekeeping app stores were born.

Ugh.

4 steps forward, 2 steps back.

fiatjaf 2y ago

Are you sure? When was that? 2005?

sperry 2y ago

I started selling online using eBay in 1998.

sperry 2y ago

I was an early eBay "powerseller".

I got a business account in March 2002. And got on facebook in February 2008.

What a trip, thanks for taking me back.

2005ish, I went to Mexico for 2 weeks and racked up a $680usd att bill accessing my eBay account on my phone. 😂

btctotoro 2y ago

web apps are the answer, imo. Freedom does not survive (let alone thrive) in the app store.

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

I can't grasp why the long term goal wouldn't be to exit apple devices. I'm not saying Google is better, but shouldn't the long term goal be to decentralize and move away from big tech control? When a corporation is openly hostile to individual choice and decentralized technology, why are people so bent on continuing to buy their products when there are alternatives?

btctotoro 2y ago

👆

Guy Swann 2y ago

Exit their walled gardens and force them back to a hardware only focused company. Since their domination and lock in with the App Store they’ve become a platform silo funnel: they build great hardware to trap users in their ecosystem.

But that doesn’t discount the value of the hardware, we just need to work around the walls they put up. It’s at least easier in the smartphone market, but the laptop market literally has almost universally shit options outside of Apple, imo.

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

Have you looked at frame.work ?

Guy Swann 2y ago

I haven’t! Will check it out.

Guy Swann 2y ago

Mind you, I’m not saying that it wouldn’t be good to exit apple device dependency and that this isn’t the goal, I’m just saying is by far the least practical and considering it the first and only step is to kinda just dismiss the problem. There are billions of apple devices, the question is how do we make freedom accessible to them even when Apple wants to insert themselves as a middle man and take 30% of everything they do?

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

Figure out how to drop a non-proprietary OS on an Apple device and I'll use it. I'd have zero issue running apple hardware running my choice of Linux if I was paying obscene amounts to bankroll a company I don't want to support.

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

Wasn't*

Guy Swann 2y ago

God that would be the dream. Linux on the M2 😆

rejon 2y ago

The chips are the barrier…

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

I've always valued software freedom over hardware, and I don't really feal limited at all. But then again, I'm not editing 4D movies or doing quantum computing, or whatever MacBook people are supposedly doing on their laptops I guess 😂

Guy Swann 2y ago

The M1 Max has been a huge benefit to what I do. Battery power is night and day. But I am actually editing 4D movies, recording high quality audio, creating a few dozen gigs of media every day or two, running numerous Ai tools that hog TF out of resources, have a few terminal processes that stay active, and I have 2 different browsers open with 100 tabs in each at basically all times 🤣🤣

With this thing literally maxed out for the MacBook I could get, I literally crashed it the other day because the combination of Davinci Studio using a bunch of 4K footage in an elaborate Fusion rendering and then transcribing one of my podcast episodes while talking to GPT4all just ate every ounce of RAM I had. I was literally writing to the drives to move the mouse around on the screen. I tried so hard to quit processes before it completely shit the bed but keyboard strokes weren’t even registering for like 10 seconds 😅

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

Have you considered closing 4 or 5 tabs so you can mine bitcoin while you also map genomes in the background? 😂

rejon 2y ago

🤪

Guy Swann 2y ago

I save that for a Wednesday only activity. 🤣

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

Special occasions 😂

Branden with an E 2y ago

I've got an M2 air... One can only dream ... But some of these dreams have a way of becoming reality.

Mallory 2y ago

https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac/amp

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

Good to know it's possible! If I'm ever gifted a MacOS device that will be the first thing I do to it.

Mallory 2y ago

I’ve only partitioned an old laptop. It would be interesting to know if it would be possible on iPad or iPhone. 🤷🏼‍♀️

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

I've been hearing folks talking about jailbreak ING iphones, but it's this hushed mythical thing they don't want to say too loud, and it's unconfirmed if anybody actually has 😂

Mallory 2y ago

That’s just removing it from its phone carrier ties. Say if you got it cheaper through a certain contract.

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

From my understanding, the firmware is locked though? I may be incorrect on that.

Mallory 2y ago

There is someone far better equipped to answer questions about this than me.

Guy Swann 2y ago

It doesn’t make full use of the Apple silicon yet though does it? That was a big reason I hadn’t done another dual boot yet.

Jonathan 2y ago

Those guides only work on Intel Macs. If you want to use Linux on a Mac your only option right now is Asahi Linux which I’ve heard is stupidly fast but also extremely beta. They’ve recently implemented the sleep state that Macs are famous for.

Jonathan 2y ago

*if you want to use Linux on an Apple Silicon Mac.

https://asahilinux.org/

HoloKat 2y ago

None. You don’t make headway by retreating. Have to be present to even make a difference.

The answer to switch away from Apple is dumb if you ask me. It’s like waking away from 1.8 billion people because you’re inconvenienced.

I think the answer is to stay and try to raise awareness - just as Damus is doing now. With enough loud voices on social media we can influence some Apple policy and have our way.

Apple is a strong brand. They don’t care if they lose you as a customer. But… they will fight tooth and nail to protect the brand. And nothing is worse for the brand than an angry mob on social media.

Stay in the game. Don’t give in. Don’t leave - that’s what they’d prefer. Keep talking, keep making noise and try to have it your way.

fiatjaf 2y ago

I don't get how you can say this in Nostr and not on Twitter. Why not "be present" on Twitter and try to make it better from there instead of exiting to Nostr?

HoloKat 2y ago

I already did. I made a ton of effort on Twitter before I left. Nobody cared.

Terry Yiu 2y ago

One difference is that Nostr needs people to make it better into a compelling alternative to Twitter to the masses.

There’s already compelling alternatives to Apple but many choose to stay. So let’s fight for those people.

HoloKat 2y ago

Exactly. All of us quitting at once is probably the best they can hope for. To a company the size of Apple it hardly matters. But making a fuss on Twitter to stay in the game on App Store is way more effective.

fiatjaf 2y ago

I don't understand how this doesn't apply to the other case. Many also choose to stay on Twitter.

HoloKat 2y ago

Twitter has massive reach. One tweet can easily be seen by thousands of people.

I suppose you could leave Apple loudly on Twitter and that may have a tiny bit of impact but most likely nobody will follow in your footsteps unless it grows into a viral woke movement (that probably only lasts a few days max).

I’ve done my best on Twitter. My audience was such that people don’t really care about censorship resistance so it made no sense to keep barking into the void.

fiatjaf 2y ago

I see your point. You can do both, though. Keep using Nostr and Twitter but when on Twitter point people to Nostr whenever possible, something like that. It probably makes some difference.

On Apple I don't see how you can make a difference by staying. If you leave, too, the difference is almost none, but at least it is _something_.

HoloKat 2y ago

I agree, though I think you run into diminishing returns quickly on Twitter. People will know your position fairly quickly and will either listen or ignore. Maybe you get a spike of reach if you’re lucky on some large account comment.

But then you could do the same or better by focusing attention on improving nostr clients.

I don’t know which is more effective - can do both.

Just imagine an XRP person talk about XRP in your feed every day. How long will you listen to that? 😂

⚡️🌱🌙 2y ago

Surely it’s best for nostr to have…

• plethora of iOS apps

• plethora of Android apps

• plethora of Progressive Web Apps

• plethora of Web apps

• plethora of Windows desktop apps

• plethora of Mac desktop apps

• plethora of Linux desktop apps

• plethora of desktop services

• plethora of cloud services

• plethora of mobile services

etc, etc, etc

Nobody here is building a monolithic solution.

It’s fundamentally a network protocol.

Guy Swann 2y ago

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Palazo 2y ago

Nostr does not necessarily need more people. It needs more application and people will come. I think Nostr shouldn‘t be seen as just another twitter clone. It should provide something twitter cannot easily do and what people ultimately care about.

Given the open protocol and the ability for anyone to develop their own client and participate at some point there will be something better than what big tech is currently providing. It is hard to compete against the whole world.

EG 2y ago

Exact the same experience. Less community, more social capital. I’m still there, mainly to consume news and opinions. I probably already interacted more here over the past 24 hours then on my Twitter account over the past year.

As for #damus I hope there is a path similar to the path Hey! followed: note16trxz8xuuhagsx27qx84tltd59tzgzrhjaunjae8dljhc7h6qw8q9l95gj

Guy Swann 2y ago

Not a bad analogy 🤔

I think each strategy has an impact in their separate domains though and I think the Apple brand is a hugely valuable attack surface.

Guy Swann 2y ago

That’s an *excellent* point.

4f

Neopatriarch 2y ago

That trick never works. It's a business. If you submit to their limitations, why should they change change anything?

It's go to cost them something. Then they will be motivated to change.

Remember, when iPhone didn't have Bitcoin wallets? The exodus changed their policy.

JG 2y ago

Having said that, the App Store is over of their main sources of revenue. For users and app developers, it's a gatekeeper. But what does Apple do when the fence is gone? Apple needs to seriously ponder this question.

JG 2y ago

Also, is this just another canary in the coal mine for the App Store, thinking back to the recent fight they had with Epic Games.

𝖋𝖎𝖆𝖙𝖉𝖊𝖓𝖎𝖊𝖗 (¯`◕‿◕´¯) 2y ago

PWA short term, Nostr phone long term 😆

shiny 2y ago

There still is the ongoing rumor that Apple will be forced to allow side loading on ios due to new EU laws… supposedly for ios 17… but little actual info.

im not holding my breath… could be limited to Europe. could be extremely hamstringed by other draconian apple rules, etc…

WolfMacbeth 2y ago

It is really shit to depend on Apple, Microsoft etc. They should be forced to aloud those Apps for decentralized stuff, like nostr. I mean, on #bitcoin the states are trying to regulate it to death and on #nostr the big private companies are going to kill it. So we never can get a better or at least an other world. I am really sad about that.

nakad.ai🔱🦁🛡️🏯📿 2y ago

The long term solution is to exit apple devices.

Guy Swann 2y ago

But what’s the short to mid term?

nakad.ai🔱🦁🛡️🏯📿 2y ago

Migration. Use both ecosystems. Gradually phase out reliance.

bitbuybyte 2y ago

I feel like switching from apple to android is out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Guy Swann 2y ago

I feel similar sometimes

DRE 2y ago

There’s no second best

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

Right, you should definitely just sideload the apps you want on your iPhone.

Guy Swann 2y ago

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7c

nobody 2y ago

Bar none. The ethos should be to move away from ANY and ALL systems that centralize power and control. Zoom out. This is what web5 is supposed to look like... all users running their own nodes on as much FOSS as possible.

Change your framework. Apply bitcoin and key pair encryption to EVERYTHING.

McSats 2y ago

Hear me out: a phone and OS both made entirely out of bitcoin

2kee 2y ago

Completely wrong approach! You need to move away from closed source hardware because the future is open source. just face it

Adam O’Brien 2y ago

Web App can only go so far if Apple starts restricting access to SDK for “inappropriate apps” it won’t matter.

If apple wants to close the loop it might segregate a small part of the ecosystem

Guy Swann 2y ago

I feel like the fallout from that would be much worse though. If they start fighting their development ecosystem the consequences for the value and vitality of their app universe will suffer massively

Adam O’Brien 2y ago

Agree - I chatted a bit about it on my live if you want to check it out: https://youtube.com/live/Xi2faB-65Rg

michael 2y ago

Those Europe law makers would be hella mad if they essentially start just randomly blocking websites at the OS level.

techfeudalist 2y ago

Web apps are great but you lose access to some important iOS features and the user experience is degraded. I would like to see more web apps for self-sovereign use cases, but i worry that those won’t scale to mainstream. For example, adding a web app to your homescreen would be difficult for most normies to discover.

I guess Apple allows people like us to opt out of the App Store with web apps knowing that the experience will be worse and most people won’t use it.

michael 2y ago

Please explain what kind of features are missing, web is extremely capable with things like caching interface, storage, camera, notifications, gpu, etc.

techfeudalist 2y ago

https://topflightapps.com/ideas/native-vs-progressive-web-app/#3.4

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

"Apple allows people" is really kind of the crux of the issue, isn't it?

techfeudalist 2y ago

I dream of the day that we can have an open source AI just rewrite the full iOS code in rust.

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

I mean, considering AppleOS is based on Unix, you could just use any Unix based OS for free today. There are tons of great Linux distros available.

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

Woops, too many convo going on, you're talking about phones 😂

QW 2y ago

Plebchain Radio is doing a panel discussion Friday at 3:30 EST on this very topic. We invite you to join.

We are focusing on a constructive way forward.

I sent you a DM. 🤙🏻

Veil 2y ago

As you mentioned on the most recent AI unchained, we are all individually solving for our own use case so there will be many answers.

Apple will feel the pressure from a legion of angry nostriches until they either relent or make their ecosystem uninhabitable.

I personally like the trend toward hardware signed notes with a web-based PWA. But I’m also a web dev, so that makes sense.

This also brings up an interesting design space for privacy solutions. I wonder if it is more difficult to censor what can’t be observed.

arkinox 2y ago

WEB APPS

Jim Smij 2y ago

aren't we all here because we exited twitter? Twitter doesn't care about us. we exited anyway.

I'm on android and wondering how long now before they block amethyst & wos.

I'll leave android, but how many choices are there? this is one of the biggest problems getting new adopters. most won't put up with this inconvenience.

🥩ℝ𝕖𝕟𝕖𝕘𝕒𝕕𝕖 ₿𝕦𝕥𝕔𝕙𝕖𝕣⚡ 2y ago

At least for now they aren't stopping side loading. I get Amethyst from gethub anyway.

Jim Smij 2y ago

what's the plan if they block sideloading? not that the most will do it. most won't.

Jack D 2y ago

Android is NOT the Google Play Store. Android, by default, let's you do what you want. That's the whole point.

Jim Smij 2y ago

you really think this is sustainable if you have to convince people to sideload apps? forget it. most aren't going to do it. apple is proof of that. people want easy. if this is made more difficult people will avoid it.

Jack D 2y ago

You don't have to sideload anything. Go to website. Download app. Install. People are used to doing this with their laptop/desktop and Android let's you do it too. iPhone does not.

Jim Smij 2y ago

yeah, right, apple doesn't. you're up to speed. carry on.

+boldmouse096⚡️ 2y ago

If you by blocking amethyst and wos mean removing them from Google play store, then amethyst is available on GitHub.

Not in the case of WoS. WoS is not foss.

dMartian 2y ago

WOS is free to post its executables on github

Jim Smij 2y ago

most arent going to github to get anything. they won't do it. onboarding should be easier. apple just made it harder. what's stopping google from making it harder?

Paulo Sacramento 2y ago

PWA

Jack D 2y ago

Apple doesn't let you do what you want. By choosing to use it, one chooses to give up the control over their experience. Linux (android) is the revolution. Join us.

jelloshooter848 2y ago

I keep hearing one group say “web apps fixes this!” and another says “web apps suck and there’s too many limitations on what you can do on them to make them good…”

I have no idea which side is right though. Conceptually it seems like web apps fixes the problem, but I have never coded and app so I have absolutely no idea how to gauge the feasibility of that.

Also, I guess if apple wanted to they could still practically block apps on their phones by making it so the functions needed to have a certain app like nostr aren’t available on the ios safari app. Not sure how feasible that is for apple, but seems like it would be simple to me.

dMartian 2y ago

I made the switch suddenly and it's not that big of a deal. Yeah it's weird for a while but you're not stuck anywhere.

Plus your work results in improvements like having your cloud data encrypted such that only you hold the keys, and this will sync just fine with your Mac or PC. You just use less Apple apps and start using alternatives available, often with very good FOSS alternatives.

Who cares if it's more work for you than Apple? All that matters is you and your soviergnty. You carried around that iPhone around like a safety blanket, but did you really need to?

Peter Schmidler 2y ago

webapps are the way to go. ideally with companion native apps for features in need of native apis. the bigger the feature set of the webapp the higher the pressure on them!

Geist 2y ago

You won't make an economic difference to apple, but what apple wouldn't notice open source OS devs would, I agree though have both for a while!

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