Unpopular opinion: internet memes are actually a force for bad in the world. They are basically just digital versions of the kinds of group signaling mechanisms that breed tribalism and dangerous in-group/out-group behaviors.
Discussion
Not all memes are bad.
Yeah. But that’s not really the point. The point is what cultural valence they have, and what direction those cultural winds are blowing.
Groups and communities can be positive energy or negative— can’t there be memes for good?
I know that is unrealistic— it’s easier to tear people down than build communities up, how can we make nostr more up building by default?
Yeah. Absolutely. But when you really look memes today … the vast majority of them are essentially delineating an in-group from out-group. Even bitcoin memes! There’s generally an enemy that’s being signaled out, and mocked.
It’s not just “All Your Base Are Belong to Us” anymore. To take a phrase from the culture war, memes in this sense, have become yes … virtue signals.
Not all tribalism is bad… 🐝
No. But it’s mostly bad. Group-affinity is driven by proximity and context. Not by simple dispassionate reasoning.
I understand, but fighting human nature by wanting everyone to stop being tribal is futile. It’s the very reason we all exist ~ fundamental to the history of evolution itself. Money was one of the first mediums to operate across tribal boundaries.
I don't agree that any conception of money ameliorates these concerns. I think all such claims are simplistic and reductionist, and an example of the fallacy of the single cause.
History of money is clear. It doesn’t negate tribes — it allows them to cooperate across boundaries of trust.
Just saying, it’s better to create universal tools any tribes can use rather than attempt to destroy human nature’s affinity for tribes. Independent, free-thought should always be encouraged too of course.
I wouldn't argue any of the claims you're making about the role of money, here. And I would suggest that none of this is incompatible with my prior point.
Memes are a low mental-cost, medium of communication across trust boundaries.
That’s why they are so powerful, like money.
The meme is the message
Of course, my fellow Canadian, Marshall McLuhan would agree with you there. 🤣
no
Memes create reality, every great civilization was build on memes
If you’re talking about “memes” in the way Richard Dawkins defines them, then yes, you are correct. But we both know that’s not what I’m talking about, here.
Memes are viral ideas.
If the idea is valuable, the meme is valuable.
#[0]
They also condense lots of information into visual representation, making communication more efficient.
Is the idea then that group signaling mechanisms are always bad? I'm not convinced of that. They can be an efficient way to communicate a shared context which would otherwise have to be built up from nothing with every interaction.
If they're used mainly for the purpose of exclusion, sure. I don't see that happening with funny memes though.
Not it’s not *always* bad. It’s a well-known, evolutionarily selective survival trait. And pretty good one when you consider the landscape of human experiences 20,000+ years ago. I think in the context of a technologically advanced, organized society, it starts to have destabilizing effects that when coupled with our capacity for self-destruction, is a deeply concerning thing.
this is like saying art is a force of bad
It can be. I think Marxist realism was a force for bad. It really does depend on what the normative goals behind the expression are.
yes, but you said *are*, that's a whole lotta different than *can* 😁
https://belgianbitcoinembassy.org/bbq-special-event-pre-meetup18/
oops. that link wasn't suppose to go there 😅😂
Well my bot #[2] like to disagree. It brings the best memes. It has seen an organic growth and I keep on receving sats as zaps if people liked the meme.
Memes tend to be great tools in the fight to intellectually dismantle leftwing ideology. No surprise that leftwing ideologues dislike them.
#[0]
Well my bot #[1] like to disagree. It brings the best memes. It has seen an organic growth and I keep on receving sats as zaps if people liked the meme.
#[0]
No, they’re a force of propaganda, which can be good or bad.
*Very unpopular
Well…. No.
Whether the opinion unpopular or not, I think it's very incorrect.
Because you can point out memes that *are* group signaling, doesn't mean memes are universally this or even that it predominately operates this way. Memes are a medium which forces one to breakdown ideas into their most concise form. They will have the same scope of correctness, painfully wrong, mindless group signaling, etc as literally the concept of "ideas" itself.
ie. you might as well say "ideas are just group signaling to breed tribalism."
Okay. But you could literally apply this defense to demagoguery itself, and then argue demagoguery is a good thing on the same basis.
And I'd probably argue that most political memes are a form of demagoguery in any case.
IMO, this doesnt really have any bearing on my argument. You’re just using a word with negative connation to replace “idea.” 🤔
Memes are simple truths. The closest to the truth, the most powerful the meme, which is why they are such an effective and brilliant tool for awakening. Propaganda that is trying to brainwash–based on lies–makes for very poor memes, which is why the left can’t meme to save their lives.
I'd say lies and misinformation travel effortlessly through memes. So we disagree strongly on this point.
How do you know they are lies? 😂
How do you know they're truths?
That’s the whole point. Powerful memes will make you think and want to dig a little deeper in a quest for truth. Poor memes are what they are and invariably end up in self-contradictions and other fallacies. Memes require critical thinking to create them and to understand them effectively; something that is unfortunately lacking in a generation that has been indoctrinated in what to think, instead of how to ask questions.
Do they make people think and go deeper, though? I guess that's what I am doubting.
Memes are hilarious. Not all but when they hit, oh boy. Comedy is subjective. Communicating in this way is brilliant. NY times used to pay (not sure anymore) lots of money for political /current event cartoons. Math followed those to get a pulse on what was happening. Not all true but typically timely/current & there is always truth in comedy. Somewhere. There are also tons of great articles, YouTube videos, podcasts etc etc for information. Memes are just a quick hit and are brilliant when done well. IMO.
Would you say that the average bitcoin pleb on twitter/nostr has done more research on the history of money, monetary policy, etc (whether or not you agree with their conclusions) than an average person you meet on the street?
Yes. I do think that. I also think that understanding often comes from one singular school of thought, though -- the Austrian School, which I argue forms an incomplete view on the subject.
Would you consider that a sign that they’re willing to go deeper? Even if the depth of their curiosity ends at their first stop. Those who searched have a framework to build their opinions (even if your opinion is that it’s flawed), when the average Joe on the street doesn’t.
Yeah. I think there's a lot of curiosity to learn more.
It depends on the person. Some might see something, take it at face value and move on. More curious minds are willing to take a second look and dig further. In that case they might end up learning the truth about something. And that makes it all worth it.
I'm not sure people tend to seek out nuance, on average.
I guess I’m back to my first point, where memes can communicate simple and powerful truths very effectively. Even if someone is not bent on seeking out nuance, memes are also quick to remember and can hit the subconscious in a way that other forms of communication cannot. Once in the subconscious, it can become a seed to be drawn upon when the opportunity presents itself. So whether or not the audience thinks critically or takes things at face value, memes can be effective either way, making it a very powerful communication device. It would be unwise, in this day and age of exponentially shortened attention spans, to disregard the value of memetics.
You must really phunking hate guns and drugs too???
Does that make you conservative authoritarian or progressive authoritarian???
Either way ...
Literally don't know how you're drawing these inferences.
They are inert just like memes...
But your feeling are hurt by them.
"Bad"
Referring to your consistent DEMAGOGUERY
I think you should go on @PeterMcCormack show to share your with his DEMAGOGUERY.
Honest question: why are you so angry right now?
LoL ..
Ain't honest.
But I find it phunking phunny wen you and others expect to be taken seriously wen your only appeal is to emotion and political DEMAGOGUERY!
You and McCormick are certainly entertaining(phunny). No need to be angry about that.
Lmao
Because only truth can give a meme it’s power, it’s not relevant whether one thinks their effect is good or bad.
Dank memes end regimes
Internet memes are a symptom instead of the cause of all the things happening in the world, good or bad. People meme about stuff they experience and those who feel the same way like the memes. Generalising the whole meme culture is just like saying nostr is bad because anyone can post anything, even illegal stuff. While some people may use nostr to do that, most of don’t. Same with memes.
I don't believe this analogy is operative at all. I have already conceded that not all memes are bad. I also support nuclear power, even though nuclear technology can be used for bad, too. Your analogy is really just a straw man, as conceived.
Just wanted to explain that the memes you describe come around because they are a symptom of a partly dysfunctional society - people often use humour as a defence mechanism in difficult situations. Memes don’t create “bad” ideas, they portray them.
Appearance of Nostr is also a symptom of mass censorship. It’s the product of the people that resist that censorship. If we go with your process of thinking, Nostr would be the reason for censorship. That’s not the case.
The only difference between a text based post & meme is a visual aid.
The visual aid doesn't "breed tribalism".
Tribes form around ideas, not visual aids.
I don't think that's the only difference. I think you should look into the research on symbology and it's relationship to propaganda, demagoguery and in-group behaviors.
Classic case of correlation vs causation confusion.
Idea - tribe - propaganda
In that order.
Just like the egg comes before the chicken.
You're stating your opinion as fact, so I may assume it's not an opinion but an error of the mind. If this is anything but an experiment to evoke certain response, it is truly dense.
How am I stating it as a fact, when I explicitly qualified the remark as an opinion?
Do you think what you said is true, or do you know what you said is true? Semantics matter, so what you stated did not communicate an opinion. An opinion starts like this: "I think that..."
This is really weird line of argument you're going down. I don't think anyone ever talks in pure facts. Ever. I think literally everything we say is an opinion.
So what you're really trying to do here is argue with me on the basis of some incredulity, which is really just as hominem.
*an ad hominem.
Nope, just semantically sensitive sometimes. Don't you ever have discussions about semantics? I do all the time.
You may have noticed I responded to the content of the note as well.
I did not notice, unfortunately. The general increase in toxicity from a bunch of people, became pretty distracting.
Well what do you expect if you write a note like that? I don't mind to be able to read emotions or crude language in notes on here. Some things are just so important to people. Stating what you wrote and how you wrote it it's going to evoke response of a certain amplitude, that wasn't hard to foresee was it?
What about tv memes?
Street adv memes?
Radio memes?
Graffiti memes?
It's an unpopular idea because it's wrong.
You're not seeing it because you lack the knowledge needed to interpret it.
Simply put you don't speak meme.
Your post is creating a buzz.
Added to the https://member.cash/hot feed
A picture says more than a thousand word, but a meme on the other hand says more than ten thousand (Ideally)
Even if a lot of people don't share this opinion, it's good to see some disagreement on nostr. At times it seems a bit too much like a monoculture (bitcoin chat room where everyone shares the same beliefs and says the same things a lot) and generating debate is healthy and a nice stress test.
Less anger and abuse would be nice, too.
well, to your point about memes…many are extremely emotionally invested. the anger & abuse protects their egos from having to consider anything outside themselves 😔
I think they are good. They can be used to reinforce group think if they don’t reach past the groups that made them. But I view them as the evolution of comic strips. They are a commentary on some idea in visual form. Like these.
I think they are just a powerful tool. They can be good or bad depending on perspective.
I agree. An initial sense of community that develops into tribalism breeds confirmation bias and inbreeding of beliefs. The tribe becomes immune to new ideas and outsiders, and a depth of understanding is never achieved.
Unpopular opinion is right.
Memes only propagate if they serve truth. If they are fake and promote all the things you purpose they do they do catch on. The whole point of a meme is transmission of an idea if it reaches you and doesn't continue on it dies. Therefore your " opinion" of the situation is inherently inaccurate and doesnt speak truth. Therefore you will no become a meme and we will make fun of you for it as a social backlash to remind you that if you say stupid things you shall suffer the consequences of said behavior to remind you to correct said poor behavior
#[0]
Starting your note with the word 'unpopular' makes it popular as people rush to contradict.