Dude. 41% and rising?
Bitcoiners from 2015 would have resolved this by now. 
Discussion
Any thoughts and how more decentralization could be encouraged? Or do we just need some kind of black swan style event?
Foundry USA is owned by https://dcg.co
I'm not a techie so the best I can do is run two Bitaxes and a node... 😕
That's essentially the extent of my contribution as well lol. Love my Bitaxes.
Mine with ocean via DATUM. Build your own block templates instead of the pool being in charge of what transactions are included.
folks should invest time in learning how to self-custody and consider running a node
Trump said all bitcoin would be made in America 😂 almost half way there
So are we saying that the pools control the miners? Is that the argument?
Not good
DOING MY PART. 🫡
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Can’t zap ya dude.
Does this really matter?
I'm running my node along with a Bitaxe Gamma... Aren't nodes the ones truly in charge of the network? Didn't the Block Wars already make that clear? Honestly, I don't see an issue.
There are implications. For instance if foundry shit down unexpectedly the hash rate would drop significantly. It wouldn’t kill Bitcoin obviously, but it would be something people fud about
I’m sure there are more threatening considerations too
It is a concern because it allows that one pool to alter transactions in the blockchain, while nodes create the rules avoiding a 51% attacks also helps keeps bitcoin decentralized.
A 51% attack is financially unfeasible, and the only country that could have done it was China (I think they had around 65% of the hash rate). Instead of seizing the machines, they just kicked out the miners. Kkkkk, they are idiots. They'll regret it bitterly; they probably lost the chance to become the most powerful country in the world! Thank God they lost that opportunity, right?
China will absolutely use any opportunity they can to seize more power, and control.
I don't see how sending the blockchain into chaos, which would inherently lead to plummeting prices, would be in China's best interests. Given their holdings and engagement with the Bitcoin network, it seems like their best interests are served by ensuring the stability of the blockchain.
China benefits from controlling the Bitcoin network to de-anonymize any privacy preserving tech in Bitcoin, they can subtly scoop off fees, or manipulate blocks to pay fractional amounts towards them, or they can shut it down completely by forcing the blockchain to become worthless.
They can also use Antpool, and KYC processes to keep track of every transaction on The Blockchain, and associate with known entities (usually citizens who comply with laws).
Even if you say this is FUD, it's not because Price Bros don't care about the network as long as their fiat bags keep going up.
Most people don't actually use Bitcoin, they just hold paper derivatives of it.
Either way, China wins, they get to profit off of Bitcoin's fiat speculation, and appreciation, or they shut down one of the biggest threats to their global order.
FUD. Those who don’t truly use Bitcoin will learn the hard way. China missed its chance, it’s over. Next!
And if they used that power to cheat, it would have resulted in a fork that no one else used.
All these problems ultimately lead to potential short-term dips and reorgs, while the nodes will always pick the most decentralised original chain by default.
Storm in a teacup.
You're right that pool centralization doesn't make the deciding difference when it comes to defending against changes to the consensus rules via hard forks. Nodes are the deciding factor there, and specifically nodes that are actually being used by those who run them, not ones that are just sitting on a shelf gathering dust while the owner broadcasts transactions through whatever the default node is in Sparrow wallet, and checks to see where the transaction is in the mempools using mempool.space.
However, pool centralization is a MASSIVE deal when it comes to what transactions actually make it into blocks. Foundry currently decides what transactions make it into 41% of blocks. Antpool and its slave-pools decide what make it into another 50% or so. That means effectively two entities control what transactions are included in roughly 91% of blocks. That's problematic, to say the least.
Miners should move to pools that allow them to create their own block templates, instead of relying on the pool to dictate what is included in the block template. Currently, the only pool that allows this is nostr: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 that I am aware of, but more pools should adopt DATUM and do the same.
It would not be NEARLY such a big deal that Foundry has 41% of the hash rate, if the individual miners on that pool could create their own block templates based on the transactions in their node's mempool.
There have been some cases of censorship in the past, like when the Samurai team accused Ocean itself. Anyway, game theory takes care of this. If this kind of thing starts happening frequently, the censoring pool will end up losing money, and miners will switch to another pool or even choose to mine solo. Next.
My only real concern would be a decrease in the number of nodes, as that could indeed lead to centralization! As long as the incentives are aligned, I don't see any issue.
First, it's already happening with big pools excluding transactions in order to be OFAC compliant, and yet those pools are only getting bigger.
Not all censorship results in financial loss that would actually make miners leave due to their bottom-line shrinking.
Those accusations against nostr:nprofile1qqsq9k04vahllseell55m74n3047y88pzlr0z5yany32st29fapqmgsppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qgawaehxw309ahx7um5wghxy6t5vdhkjmn9wgh8xmmrd9skctc87ckyu were ridiculous because OCEAN had and still has such a small percentage of the hash rate that any transactions they intentionally excluded would have made it into the very next block, and their intention was ALWAYS to let the individual miners make their own block templates, which we can now do, so OCEAN has no say in what makes it into a block.
Meanwhile, all it takes is two entities to collude and they can keep transactions out of 90% of blocks, which has a meaningful impact on how long it could take for those transactions to be included by a smaller pool.
Most mining companies would not solo-mine, because they need the consistent revenue.
The point is, if a solution to the problem exists, and it does. DATUM works. Then more pools should adopt it, or miners should move to pools that it can be used with.
If the solution already exists, then there's no issue at all. This post was just to drive engagement. Next!
Buy some hash on nostr:npub1t6el40knsq8hmrpr0m6tt3t0tr4pdeyhlt2qelwhgtwawddqx0xsv03scu and send to nostr:npub1qtvl2em0llpnnllffhat8zltugwwz97x79gfmxfz4qk52n6zpk3qq87dze pool amiright
Bitcoiners in 2015 didnt have to fight against literally billion(s) dollar public miners. Scale isn't even close.
This is the (only) way.
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Nice 👏
Did you see that new BitAxe with WiFi and the big display? It looks really nice. Something that looks good on your nightstand next to your BTClock.
You mean the NerdAxe?
No, it's the BitAxe Touch
Where's the best place to pick one up an not be scammed.?
nostr:nprofile1qqstrcgctzz2d52thl8r3xwt205pswkauep0yexsla83w3fhrcrpxnqpzdmhxue69uhhwmm59e6hg7r09ehkuef0dpan88 but don't think it's available to the public yet. I believe they're just out on per-release. Check out the Solo Satoshi website and see if it's available for pre-order, or early reservation.
That’s correct. We do not take anyone’s money upfront! The UI is still currently in the debugging phase while we work on production of the rest of the unit. The Bitaxe touch is definitely a game changer!
Riot really needs to switch to ocean. Get out of foundry and make a difference.
I got into bitcoin about 2 years ago. Strange to me how little people worry about decentralization of mining.
Decentralization is like the key to everything. The price should rise the more decentralized it is too!
the independent nodes keep the network decentralized and really enforce the rules. Read up on the block size war culminating in 2017's NY agreement and the subsequent failure of the bitcoin cash fork (tl'dr is the power players couldnt increase the block size). also consider downloading and running Bitcoin Core to become a node on the network
I still don't like coming anywhere close to mining centralization. Don't want to give governments/entities even a miniscule chance of censoring transactions.
a pool having over 51% is indeed a risk, but the ability to almost instantly repoint hash power is a comforting reality of the system
Your Lightning address is broken nostr:nprofile1qqs8fl79rnpsz5x00xmvkvtd8g2u7ve2k2dr3lkfadyy4v24r4k3s4sppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnw3ezucn89ur9eu8h. Don't tell me you're still not using Alby Hub and missed the deadline for switching from the custodial wallet.
Its more likely his backend node went down or had some connectivity issue, and he didn't property restart Alby Hub. I've seen this with a lot of self-hosted Alby configs, especially those using Start9.
If there's anyone who can make sure services are running properly on their Start9, it's nostr:nprofile1qqs8fl79rnpsz5x00xmvkvtd8g2u7ve2k2dr3lkfadyy4v24r4k3s4sppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnw3ezucn89ur9eu8h. He's helped me out of a jam on a few occasions now.
I think it's a Alby Hub issue. And Alby is aware of it. When the backend node goes down, Alby Hub isn't always able to restart services, and manual intervention is required to re-initialize the connection between the backend node and Alby Hub.
it's a very soft deadline
Run a node.
Install DATUM.
Make your own block templates so the pools don't get to decide what transactions make it into a block, not even OCEAN.
Didn’t Ghash.io surpass 50% sometime in 2015?
Correct.
I did my part after listening to you in Lugano, switched to Ocean.
Bitcoiners from 2013 would have never let this happen.
It turns out publicly traded energy companies and former finance bros don't care about keeping Bitcoin decentralized.
How much can we do when energy production is centralized?
There must be mining operations out there that care about this stuff, how do we reach them and get them using #datum?
👀
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Time to start working on my dream and make Europe mining great again
Good luck
Considering Europe's energetic dependency from enemy countries, EU bureaucrats getting their hands everywhere, and the overall pre-1984 state of affairs in Europe, I'm not sure it'll be a good business. Just my 2 sats
I think you're right, but I guess someone needs to at least give it a try
remember folks. Mining pools are very dynamic entities that can and do change fast in response to network or political conditions, 2) a 51% attack is not the same thing as 'control of bitcoin', and 3) as the mining market grows and matures, it is shifting more and more to places outside of USA.
Let’s compete!
I thought we like number go up
What if a 51% pool would censor all blocks that were not mined by that pool? It would boost the profitability of that pool tremendously and create strong incentives to join that pool.
Combine that with legislation and pressure on the exchanges and big economic nodes to play along...
Voila, you have a centralized state-controlled network.
I think you're ignoring the impact such an action would have on the stability of the Bitcoin market, and subsequently the price of Bitcoin. It would send the network into absolute chaos which would result in plummeting market prices as confidence dramatically dropped. The people with the most likely ability to do this are also the people who have the biggest interest in maintaining the stability of the blockchain, and the Bitcoin market.
When there are financial instruments that let you short the price, what is there to lose? On the contrary, if you are a superpower that is threatened by the decentralized network, it's a double win.
Yes there are miners that are long term invested into Bitcoin. But what would they do in such a scenario?
I can’t zap you!
I haven't been keeping up with Bitcoin mining at all. What makes foundry so "special" that if can capture the market? I bet it's some stupid reason like they have a neat accounting dashboard or something.
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Most of the 'freedom money' is been produced by public mining companies. The system always find a way to take away the power from peoples hands, because money is power.
Circa 2015, BTCGuild controlled even more.
People said the same things when most of the hashrate were coming from China. Having most of the hashrate doesn't give you power to control the network.
And? It all sorts itself out naturally.
Time will rectify it. Too bad miners are often not really bitcoiners. You guys are going to make a change! Still early!
I’m running as many solo miners as I can man🤣 got another one coming in the mail
Is this what mskes a centralised shitcoin?
Some BS will happen. Then people will adapt. The free market reacts accordingly
Chart crime.
Awful..where is the support for Ocean/DATUM, I don't understand it. It's a no brainer.
Then why aren't they? I'd imagine any bitcoiner conscious of the distribution of computational power of mining pools are still bitcoiners. really the only thing within reason to do is spread awareness and tell people to point their nodes elsewhere.
No pool should be over *20%* irrespective of jurisdiction .. never mind double that 😱
Are the US listed miners all kissing the ring at Foundry FFS?
Foundry has become a problem.
Wie von mir bereits 2024 im Podcast #Einundzwanzig thematisiert. Auf dem besten Weg zu einer zentralisierten und möglicherweise staatlich kontrollierten Mining Umgebung. 🤔
WTF, where is Ocean?
it will resolve at some time
now it looks a little scary
Important point. We got ‘work’ to do… Ocean via Datum here we come!
… with a Bitaxe swarm for every Bitcoiner!
This chart scares me, ngl
if it's a mining pool, and there's a problem, the miners can take their machines elsewhere. how does a pool operator control anything?
They control block templates, so they are a censorship resistance risk.
For the 51% attack risk, I do see it as less of a danger than the raw mathematics suggest (mainly for the reason you're implying). But it's still not good.
I can't see anyone pulling off a 51% attack at this point. the cost is too high.