Take less mass gainer or workout harder and you won't get fat. Mass gainer exists to put you and keep you in to an anabolic state.
Discussion
I don’t take mass gained anymore. And food can’t put you in an anabolic state.
You don't just switch from anabolic or catabolic overnight. It takes a few weeks. 95% of the population stays in a catabolic permanently because 1) they don't workout hard enough 2) they don't eat enough to sustain the anabolic state
You're building muscle when you're anabolic (bulking calorie excess) you're breaking down muscle when you're catabolic (cutting calorie deficit). Most professionals will bulk 8-9 months a year gaining fat along with muscle then cut for 3-4 months revealing the muscle gain. This is the most efficient way to gain muscle and reflects best our ancestral/genetic eating habits.
This strategy isn’t based on science. Your muscles have a genetic limit to how fast they can grow. Eating more just makes you fatter. Even if you don’t eat a lot, your body will convert fat cells into muscle. There’s a lot of garbage nonsense in the fitness industry because they’re trying to sell you junk.
No your body does not convert fat cells into muscle lol wtf!? Smh this is why ever one is so fat and out if shape. Disappointing.
Speak for yourself lol I’ve gained muscle on a calorie deficit
Of course you did you just gained less than if you were to be in a calorie surplus.
It's like saying I cut the lawn with a scissors and it took me 10 hours. If I had used the lawn mower I could have done it in 10 mins.
Okay so the key is to eat more?
Based on your logic, if I eat 5k calories after working out, I’ll gain less muscle than if I eat 10k calories? What about 15k calories? Will I look like this?
These guys are pure clowns. Can’t even wipe their own asses and their hearts and livers are shot by 40. Inverse of athletic.
Exactly the straw man I just described.
How am I misrepresenting your argument? If you eat more then you’ll get bigger muscles. If you eat less then your muscles won’t grow as much. So the key is to eat as much as possible right? Or maybe there is more nuance. Maybe there is a limit to how much muscle you can grow in a given week. Maybe.
I don't think I've ever gained muscle in a surplus looking back. Every time I bought into the whole must have a calorie surplus to gain muscle narrative I made no muscle gains.
The idea of “bulking” is almost always executed in way where the person bulking is spiking their insulin all day creating extreme metabolic derangement. Has a cascading negative impact on all bodily functions.
You're bulking because you're body is literally starving for fuel if you don't feed it. You're not eating just to eat, you're hungry all the time while you're anabolic.
I think this is like the "does a tree falling in the woods with no one to hear it make a sound" argument. It is all in how you define the words and in this case who you are giving the advice to.
I have some spare fat due to some medical issues that caused me to gain a bunch of weight. I fast regularly so my body is perfectly capable of burning fat for fuel (despite claims in here that anyone who can do that is already skinny) that means I'm always in a calorie surplus no matter what I do or don't eat.
There are macro and micro nutrient needs that have to be met, protein and specifically leucine for example. Beyond that, I don't need to eat more than maintenance calories to gain muscle.
Maybe someone well under 15% body fat will have an issue gaining muscle without gaining weight but I don't. I may be fat by gym bro standards but I'm pretty fit by national average standards.
Is a competition body builder sub 10% fat going to need to gain some fat to gain more muscle for next season? Yes. Does a 20% fat guy who is trying to get in better shape have the same issue? No.
Sub 10% fat is harmful metabolically just as true as being 40% fat is bad for you. Both those metabolic harms will slow muscle gain. For an average dude depending on genetics you probably want to walk around in the 15% ish range for optimal health.
The right answer to all of this depends on the person. If you are a dude >20%bf taking a mass gainer you are hurting yourself. If you're a dude <10%bf trying to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time you are hurting yourself.
Women naturally have higher bf% but the same concepts apply with different numbers.
Calorie surplus has nothing to do with your current body fat or weight it's how much you ingest daily. By definition you are in a calorie deficit by fasting, this is why you are burning fat.
My point is that calorie deficit / surplus focuses on part of the energy system while ignoring part of it. Energy deficit or surplus is a much better way to look at it. I have no shortage of available energy due to my spare tire.
In the past I have pushed to my limits and my metabolism changed once my BF% got low enough. I got cold and tired and slow, all things that any honest pro body builder will tell you happens in a cut. Energy deficit causes that. These days I can do 36 hours fasting regularly no problem without those changes to my basal metabolic rate because I am not at an energy deficit. Hopefully that will change in time as I make progress on the health issue that made me fat in the first place.
I'm currently gaining muscle and losing fat just like many here say is impossible. It only takes N1 to invalidate that claim unlike my depends on the person claim.
The reason they are wrong is because they don't understand that eating is only part of the energy equation. I'm at energy surplus so I can gain muscle.
This is important to me because it is a key piece of misinformation that is spread often that really makes it harder for people like me who need to lower their BF%. Your way makes it impossible for someone in my situation to get healthier. I know because I tried it. My way gives us a path to get back on track, though admittedly a difficult one.
Correct you need energy surplus -calories- (your terms) to build muscle. You cannot build muscle in an energy (caloric) deficit. As has been spewed by these folks previously. Best of luck on your fitness journey 🤙
Many here are saying you need to eat a surplus, which isn't true for most people.
Also, I don't think you need to eat enough to gain fat.
Building muscle takes more calories than keeping the same amount which takes more than losing.
If you lift hard, you'll need extra calories to heal that you don't need to stay the same. You can even measure the amount as the after burn effect. You could in theory measure the increased calorie needs after an injury.
If your body is using those calories to improve itself is it really a surplus? If some are turning into fat for sure that is a surplus.
I'm fairly confident that the idea of metabolic rate being fixed is BS. Your body can turn up or turn down the burn. Any 3 or 4 day fast will make you cold because it turned the fire down. If you gained fat you were maxed out and still had too much or the wrong food or some kind of metabolic syndrome.
You have a baseline amount of calories to sustain your current body composition. As you grow larger that baseline amount goes higher. If I was 200lb last year and I'm 210kb this year I have more muscle that require more calories to maintain them.
Again I answered all these things with nostr:npub1ghcetnluhryhynhuyj8s2pazldjm27wl40nu6dfeskvpv09twcnsneygat and nostr:npub1an6xs9jt6apmw45rmvu8pnspewdp6juwcgp76fk72ruky4dmcadqwfze63 questions. You will have to re find them. They had alot of the same misunderstandings as it sounds like you have.
This will probably help you. Very informative. Get your basal and adjust from there.
Your body 100% can and does convert fat cells into muscle cells. Your body converts fat and muscle into energy when you’re doing cardio. Fat cells are excess energy sources after all. That’s why they are there. And when resources are depleted like when on a slight calorie deficit, the body will make use of fat and turn it into muscles after you workout.
If you’re fat adapted.
Even if you aren’t fat adapted. Your body burns fat at rest.
Very poorly if at all if the individual is adapted to burning exogenous glucose as fuel.
Most people live glucose dose to glucose dose. When people get hangry or shaky they’re beginning to have withdrawals because exogenous glucose is becoming depleted and they’re not adapted to burning fat.
It can take some people two years to become adequately fat adapted eg being able to effectively burn fat for energy and creating adequate glucose naturally.
This is correct. Glucose is the easiest form of fuel and most people get their quick energy hits with Coke or Pepsi etc.
Fat does NOT "Turn into muscle" it's turns into calories that your body uses for fuel. Wtf?
Then how the fuck can people grow muscle on a calorie deficit??????
You can just not very efficiently. Reference lawn mowing example.
Okay so again, when I summarize your arguments. It’s basically, if you eat more after a workout then you grow muscles. So if you eat 10k calories you’ll gain twice as much muscle than if you were to 5k calories. Make it make sense. Is that your opinion?
No that is your straw man against my opinion. There is a diminishing return to calorie intake. Mass gainers will push people over the edge into a healthy calorie surplus given they eat normal meals. If your baseline is 200g a protein a day and you eat a total of 2000 calories and that is your maintenance level you will gain less muscle than if you had eaten the same protein and had 3000 calories, putting you in a caloric surplus.
“There is a diminishing return to calorie intake.”
Finally you admit it. Okay so how do you calculate the diminishing returns?
That was never my argument. This was your straw man the whole time.
Answer my question
I don't have an answer to your straw man argument. You are clearly out of your depth. I would suggest reading back through my previous answers to help educate yourself.
Why can’t you answer the question? How many calories should I eat? You told me to do a surplus but that there are diminishing returns. How much should I eat then? 5k? 10k?
That's up to you to figure out how many to eat. There is no answer besides how your body behaves. I can tell you 9/10 times if the scale is not moving up you're either 1) not going hard enough 2) not eating enough.
You’re full of shit. You have no fucking clue what that threshold is.
Your body weight should match your protein intake in grams, if you're 150lbs aim for 150g of animal protein daily and enough carbs where you're not getting fat super fast. If you're getting fat too fast add in more cardio or less carbs.
150 grams of protein is 600 calories. That’s not even close to surplus. What else am I supposed to eat then?
Carbs and fat (probably enough fat in the meats you consume) after that.
How many grams/calories?
I would focus on feeling satiated over counting calories first. Eat until you're slightly uncomfortably full.
Whatever your body weight in lbs try to get that many grams of protein in. Something like a half lb of ground beef for lunch and dinner (1lb a day) a few times per week, 4-5 eggs is also a good breakfast. I try and eat consistent .5lb to 1lb of beef a day and 4-5 eggs at breakfast / lunch and a few bowls of cereal mixed in. Supplement with protein powder or mass gainer to hit your protein goal.
When I'm cutting I usually do 50g protein (two scoops whey) shake during my lifts. When bulking do 50g protein (1 scoop whey, 1 scoop mass gainer)
I try to keep my diet constant and use the mass gainer during my bulking. When cutting lower the mass gainer or eliminate it completely for awhile.
So my food consumption always stays relatively constant and my bulking and cutting is just controlled by my mass gainer. The food is constant and the mass gainer controls my weight if that makes sense.
Moving the goalposts. Eating until you’re slightly uncomfortable is not a a significant calorie surplus that justifies a mass gainer.
How many calories from fat and carbs do I need to reach the calorie surplus threshold?
That depends on your size and body composition. Only you can figure that out. Just aim for the protein goal of your body weight to grams of protein and build your diet around that. 3-4g of carbs per 1lb of body weight. 1 cup of pasta or rice with a half lb to a lb of ground beef is a great starting meal. Hit the protein goal and build around that. Dont focus on the calories until you get the protein and carb goal. You can refine after that.
Let’s say I’m average. 150 pounds and 5’10 with an average body composition. How many calories do I need?
This doesn’t tell me how many calories I need to meet the calorie surplus threshold for maximum muscle growth. At this point you’re just dodging the issue and I’m going to assume you’re wrong but won’t admit it or refuse to believe it. Enjoy the mass gainer. I bet you’ve never had visible abs before.
Lmao 😂
Enjoy being eternally unhappy. I don't think you can be redeemed. Tried my best. ✌🏼
And you enjoy those mass gainers. Hope you don’t develop insulin resistance.
😂😂😂
Chem slop for fake and gay gainz. So fiat it hurts.
The best diet for muscles is something like eggs, beef, milk for protein and rice for your carbs. The simpler the diet the better.
If your body is converting muscle into energy when you do cardio, you should probably speakbo a doctor.
That's like absolute last resort survival mechanism so that you can find food when you are starving to death.
You don't want your muscles being cannabibalisd for energy.
I'm diabetic and if I don't take insulin for long enough i suffer from this, my fat and muscles will start to cannibalised after a couple days of not taking insulin.
It's not something you want to happen at all.
Yes! This is what extreme levels of catabolic does.
Holy shit. Your muscles convert to energy faster than fat. Look at marathon runners and sprinters. Their bodies are literally shaped for their respective sports. Marathon runners are skinny as fuck because their body burns up their muscle. Sprinters go all out but stop before their bodies start eating itself.
Olympic level marathoners are basically permanently in a catabolic state because they don't have the excess calories to build muscle (they burn it all running). Plenty of examples of guys who also run marathons who are also jacked because they eat like freaks.
Never seen one at the highest level
It’s almost 100% certain the sprinter is on a massive stack of world class PEDs just a side note 😂
I don't think they sprinter looks un naturally big. Usually the PED guys start to look balloon-animal like. It's like spotting fake tits.
Not all of them. Sprinters are jacked because they’re doing a very intense activity that requires the use of their muscles. But they’re not doing it for as long as marathon runners. Eventually, your body will eat away at muscles when glucose is depleted. Fat burning is too slow. Muscle protein is more readily available. This is why a fat person running a marathon can’t run forever even though he should have enough energy from the fat on his body. If fat was readily available as a fuel source, then a fat person could just run or swim or bike until he loses all of his fat.
Almost all olympic level athletes are using PEDs. The sprinters need more muscle so they weight train like mad and use the drugs that help them gain quick twitch muscle. The marathon guys don’t weight train and use different PEDs (EPO or the like) and focus on maintain slow twitch muscle, which is lower volume.
You’re also not taking into account that people with certain aptitudes and body types get funneled into their best respective sports.
That marathon runner could never look like the sprinter and very unlikely the sprinter could never look like the marathon runner. Baseline is a factor.
A fat adapted person literally won’t be fat because their body uses the correct amount of fat as its primary source of energy.
All these exogenous glucose clowns including endurance athletes eat sugar goops and pastes during their events. They’re not using muscle as a fuel source during events lol that’s full starvation.
Endurance athletes have less muscle mass because it’s the optimal state for endurance athletes, less muscle to oxygenate and predominantly slow twitch muscle fibers which are smaller in diameter.
Idk about most Olympic athletes using drugs. But even if that were true, the effects of those drugs would only show a difference in the top athletes. Sprinters in general are built similarly.
And you’re right about aptitudes and body types. But it’s not clear whether those body types are shaped by the activity or if the body type gravitates to that activity. Probably a little of both.
Let’s say that a fat person becomes fat adapted. Why can’t he just run endlessly until his fat is gone? How does he run out of energy with those massive tits and love handles?
Fat people who take the time and are disciplined enough to get fat adapted do lose incredible amounts of weight and get to a healthy weight rapidly. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people who have told their stories online who have discovered this and gone through the metamorphosis. It’s pretty wild. It can’t happen over a day but it does happy quite quickly.
You’re not answering my question. Why can’t a fat adapted obese person run until his fat is gone? If fat is burned before muscle, then he should have plenty of energy to run without ever needing to burn protein.
Most really obese people have very small muscular frames underneath. The muscles are extremely atrophied because they don't get utilized in a sedentary lifestyle.
But they’re still capable of running. Likely at a slower pace but they can do it. And they have a bunch of fat they can use to continuously refuel those muscles. If fat was such an efficient energy source, then fat people could do physical activities for longer than fit people can because fit people have less fat. You don’t make sense and I’m convinced you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I already answered you. Becoming adequately fat adapted takes a long time, up to two years. In that time, the person become fat adapted loses all unnecessary fat.
So a properly fat adapted person cannot be fat.
This is my understanding of being fat adapted. Never heard what you’re saying before. At what point does someone become fat adapted? What percentage of body fat? Because you can’t get rid of all the fat on your body. Your claim doesn’t make sense.
I said all necessary fat. You won’t see a person who has been strict carnivore for 2 years still being fat. They will have body fat, but be a normal weight. The body will reach an optimum.
Google AI is pretty retarded. I’ve learned about these things listening to doctors and physiologists speak for many hours.
Becoming fat adapted is a process. The body has to learn how to harvest energy from fat and create its own glucose / glycogen. At the beginning of the transition, the body is very bad at it. But if the change in fuel sources persists, the body has to figure it out. And it takes a long time to reach full efficiency.
If the body has no more glucose/carbs for energy then it switches to fat for energy. It doesn’t take two years to become efficient at that.
Agree to disagree here.
A person who isn’t fat adapted just sitting on the couch on a regular day will essentially burn zero fat. In a starvation scenario they would, yes. But people who aren’t fat adapted struggle terribly in starvation because their bodies are not good at converting fat to energy.
I’ve been watching that show I Shouldn’t be Alive a lot and most episodes the people who survived go many days or sometimes multiple weeks without food. None of them are fat adapted so they get very weak quickly and struggle to do that fat to glucose/glycogen conversion efficiently.
Properly fat adapted people can fast easily for many days with no energy issues. The difference is poor fat adaption vs proper fat adaptation.
It’s like a 2% efficiency vs 99%.
Your muscles will grow when you give your body excess calories and protein. If you're not in a calorie surplus your muscles will not grow and you will not gain fat. Mass gainers will most likely along with regular eating put you into calorie surplus. If you're in a calorie surplus your muscles CAN grow and you may gain fat with that. You and nostr:npub1an6xs9jt6apmw45rmvu8pnspewdp6juwcgp76fk72ruky4dmcadqwfze63 are so lost.
You are 100% wrong sir. Calorie surplus isn’t required for building muscle.
Nobody who says to bulk is selling you crap.
Its literally eat pasta eat bread eat eat eat as much cheap carbs as you can.
It's the protein drinks and foods to eat when cutting that are being marketed to people.
They’re profiting off your attention. And the bad advice keeps them running in circles for answers.
Let me illustrate with the most braindead example.
Let’s say you had the best full body workout ever. It was so good that it will get you 1 additional pound of muscle as long as you consume your baseline calories. And let’s say that number is 3k calories. So 1 pound of muscle is guaranteed as long as you eat 3k calories. Assume the ratios of protein to fat are perfect.
If you eat 6k calories instead of 3k, you will not gain 2 pounds of muscle. And if you 9k calories instead of 3k, you won’t get 3 pounds of muscle. You will still gain 1 pound of muscle plus extra fat. The amount of muscle your body can add is based on genetics. Unless you’re on fucking steroids, you’re not growing more muscle by eating like a fat ass.
You're thinking just in terms of proteins and fat. Your body needs the excess carbs (literally from anywhere, soda or cheeseburgers) to fuel ATP production in order to be able to fuel / repair the muscles. If you do not have the excess carbs you will not product ATP and you will not repair and build the muscle.
Again this is your straw man tactic trying to say "in your logic 5000 calories is better than 2000 calories" which has never been the argument. This is just a feeble attempt to "win" instead of learn.
If you don’t have the carbs as fuel then your body will convert fat into fuel to do that process. That’s what I was trying to say about converting fat into muscle.
I’m not strawmanning I think you’re moving the goalposts. You said mass gainers work. When I was on mass gainers I was easily getting over 5 calories. So I should be growing more muscle then right? Okay so if I push it to 6k calories, more muscle right? Or is there a threshold where you no longer see muscle gain and it’s all just fat? Make it make sense
It’s trash. Just eat right.
No you have to eat right and supplement mass gainer. Big difference.
I'm here a month into my cut eating a cheeseburger, in a calorie deficit, no mass gainer during this period, cardio every day. I'm losing weight eating "trash". How is this possible?
Because you’re in a calorie deficit. But are you losing muscle? That’s what matters. Your body prioritizes muscle cells over fat cells WHEN you workout often. But your body is limited by genetics. There is a certain number of muscle cells you can grow in a given week. Eating more DOES NOT change the number of muscles you can grow. Otherwise, the key to becoming as big as Arnold would be to just workout and eat like an obese American at McDonald’s.
I would be losing muscle if I were not working out or eating enough to maintain them. Your body does not "prioritize" fat or muscle cells. And you're totally wrong that "fat cells convert to muscle cells". Eating more gives your body the fuel to 1) exert yourself at the gym enough to cause muscle breakdown. 2) provides enough energy for cells to breakdown the protein you give your body into ATP that fuels and grows muscle.
You're straw manning me by saying if I workout and eat 10000 calories I will just gain fat and muscle vs eating 3000 calories I will gain less fat and same amount of muscle. So easily dismantled.
So if I’m on a calorie deficit, and my body needs more energy, where will it get it from? My fat or my muscles?
I’m not strawmanning you. I’m asking you if your logic makes sense. If I eat more then I’ll gain more fat and muscle right? That’s what you’re saying, is it not? lmao
Your body burns fat first then your muscles. Your body does not want to break down proteins for fuel because it's very inefficient relative to carbs or sugars for fuel.
Your body burns glucose, carbs, fat then proteins. In that order, for fuel.
You will gain more muscle given the same amount of protein intake at a maintenance of say 2000 calories vs a calorie surplus of say 3000 or 4000 calories.
It depends. At high intensities, your body will burn carbs or muscles before fat. Your body actually prioritizes muscle only when you workout on a regular basis because there is demand for it. Otherwise, your body prioritizes fat over muscle. That’s why fat asses lose their muscle and continue to grow fat. The shit you say doesn’t make sense. If the body prioritized muscles, then you wouldn’t lose muscles over time. Muscles are actually extremely inefficient when it comes to calories/energy. They require a lot of energy to build up and maintain. We wouldn’t have survived if we evolved to be the way you think we are.
Your body will not burn muscle for energy unless you have a serious medical problem or you're starving yourself.
You seem to have fat storage and fat from diet confused as well
I can tell you don’t workout because the most common meme in gym culture is the meathead’s fear of cardio. Why? Because they are afraid they’ll burn muscle.
Cardio is great and mostly improves lifts. Unless you are in an extreme catabolic state and have extremely low levels of body fat your body will never burn muscle for fuel. Protein is the most inefficient fuel source for your body.
If you work out and eat more food your body will use the energy from that food towards your workouts and you'll gain muscle.
It's really that simple.
During a calorie deficit, if you have the fat storage and you're working out enough but not too much, and you continue to eat enough protein you'll loose fat and maintain the muscle.
Steroids fix this
If you take steroids and do not give your body the fuel to grow along with a high level of muscle stimulus they will do absolutely nothing.
Correct. You still need to workout like a psycho and give it resources to grow.
Resources like excess calories lol
Or glycogen stores and fat. Your body breaks down fat for energy. Read about Angus Barbieri. Went nearly 400 days without food by living off fat for energy.
Correct you're learning. Glucose, carbs, fat then protein in that order for fuel.
Don’t patronize me. Protein gets broken down faster than fat. If your body is in fight or flight like it is with athletes, they are burning muscle as soon as they run out of glucose. That’s why sports drinks have some sugar in it. And that’s why fat athletes in sports still drink a sugary sports drink.
Everything eventually gets broken down to glucose either way. Protein -> Fat -> Carbs -> Glucose.
Your body wants glucose for immediate fuel, then will convert carbs to glucose next, then will convert fat to glucose next, then will as a last resort convert protein to glucose.