A big long rant on the madhouse that is Bitcoin...

Ever find yourself in a room full of people who just give you the ick—and you can’t help but wonder, ā€œHow did I end up here?ā€

That’s been me looking around at the Bitcoin world for the past ~3 yrs. It’s been a rough few years on the personal front. I changed my social circle and parted ways with dear old friends. But don’t get me wrong, there are still amazing people here and the Bitcoiners that I now hangout with I genuinely find to be the most interesting and impressive people on the planet. I’d pass on a ticket to the Met gala to go to a dive bar with my fav Bitcoiners! But, looking around at the broader space… it’s ugly out here.

Blatant misogyny, political boot licking, tyrant worship, nonsensical infighting. This is not the behavior of humanity's best and brightest. And we think so highly of ourselves in this space, we are geniuses… right? Well how did all this madness wind up here, with us?

The breakdown of my relationship with one particular Bitcoiner friend of mine is very illustrative of what’s been happening here. This is a person who was a long time anarchist deep in the libertarian world. We connected over shared values, or at least I thought we had. Then the values got eroded, one by one. Liberty! …unless you are a woman, because of course women want to be led by a man. No rulers! …well except Trump, because he’s going to beat those evil libtards with the satanic agenda.

Pain will motivate you, and so I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what happened there. I see three recurring patterns: the perpetual rebel, the disillusioned, and the power hungry.

1. The Perpetual Rebel

Someone suffers a deep injustice at a formative point in life. They engage in righteous rebellion, and that becomes their identity. When one fight ends, they seek another, just to keep feeling like themselves. They aren’t just fighting for something—they’re fighting to stay someone.

2. The Disillusioned

Sometimes there are reality breaking moments in people’s lives. Someone has been told their whole life that the sky is blue, but one day, they look up and it is red. Their whole model of reality breaks, they question everything, they trust no one. They become stuck in disillusionment, always doubting, never grounded.

3. The Power Hungry

Some rebel against their rulers. Their rulers are unjust and are suppressing them. They are filled with righteous anger and join the movements to remove the oppressive leaders. But, while they may have spent years chanting it, it wasn't that they actually wanted ā€œno rulersā€, they didn’t want ā€œfreedomā€ in a general sense. They wanted to not be ruled themselves. They wanted freedom and power for themselves. And so, when the time comes, they will support the tyrant that they see as giving them the power to be the ruler of others.

My former friend was to some extent, all three of these things, and the Bitcoin world has a way of attracting these types of people. Bitcoin is a wildly powerful and ā€œdisruptiveā€ technology. When you see that, when you get it, it’s mind blowing! It’s a powerful tool for the rebels. It’s a bit of hope for the disillusioned trying to find a new map of the world. It’s also a method of enrichment for those who wish to be above others.

But the perpetual rebel and the disillusioned don’t just get caught up in Bitcoin, they also get caught up in social causes, politics, and all sorts of movements that offer them an enemy to fight or a new grip on reality. And when those seeking power are feeling wealthy, they will exert that power and seek to expand it. And when we recognize the high concentration of these volatile people in the Bitcoin world, it really shouldn’t be a surprise that we have the madness that we do.

But then, it gets worse. Bitcoin gets picked up by a lot of these people and becomes their identity, their religion. … In some circles, Bitcoin is a cult. Beards, guns, steak, and toxic maximalism. Those with a cult-like mindset are also drawn to Bitcoin.

I was born into a Christian doomsday cult and I have to admit, that’s probably a factor in why I find myself standing in this room.

My family left the cult that I was born into when I was 7, and both of my parents then drifted away from Christianity and religious extremism. But that mind set, the us-vs-them, the occult knowledge elitism, the righteousness obsession, that mindset was installed deep in the back of my head during those 7 years, and parts of it have stayed with me.

What really stuck with me was a sense of elitist righteousness as a form of safety from the evils of the world—a kind of magical thinking that promised security and fulfillment if I could just follow a rare, enlightened path and avoid the sinful, misguided sheeple. Given my history with religion, I couldn’t find this path through a church, though I did try a few times. Instead, I found it in economic and political ideologies—first in Austrian economics, where I railed against the evils of communism; then in Libertarianism, railing against the evils of collectivism and authoritarianism—and ultimately in Bitcoin, which seemed to unite these ideas and offer both a sense of purpose and a righteous path.

Bitcoin with its fringe status and world altering potential can really appeal to those seeking elite knowledge—the kind that feels like a righteous path to salvation.

But not everyone in this space is a cultist, a perpetual rebel, the chronically disillusioned, or power hungry. There are brilliant, principled people here. And people who came for the wrong reasons but stayed for the right ones. Still, it’s undeniable: Bitcoin is a magnet for the unbalanced, and that causes real problems.

It’s kinda an asshole move to rant about a problem without offering a solution. But I needed to find the patterns before I could start addressing them. I’m finally in a place where I can begin looking for solutions. And I will.

What do you think the solutions are? What do we do about this? What can we do about this?

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Discussion

People change. Positions and mindsets change. There is no point in sustaining relationships over those changes. All we can do is to find new ones and hope that people are finding the good ones more than the evil ones.

The only political party I was ever a registered member of was libertarian. I was a true believer in the idea of liberty and sovereignty and intense personal responsibility for all people. As I got older it was painful to realize that many of the men in that space don't apply those attributes to women because they don't see us as whole people. Mostly my solution is to avoid men which isn't ideal for a straight lady hoping to partner up eventually. But chatting with ladies generally feels better.

I would love to understand things like the primal trending algorithm. It's fascinating to me that posts with no zaps, boosts, or likes can make the trending page as long as it's about how women suck / shouldn't work / whatever misogyny de jour. I notice that attitude a ton on Nostr and it's a big part of why I don't try harder to purple pill my lady friends.

this is very relatable, even as a guy. i can only imagine how frustrating it is for a woman to deal with that kind of misogynistic nonsense day after day, in a "liberty" community, despite it completely going against her lived experience, historical relevance, and the values of liberty. the disconnect is jarring and it's a sad state of affairs.

the algorithm is also why i stopped using primal after awhile. it's much more difficult, but i like keeping what i see more intentional.

perhaps i'm not going about it the right way, but i post what i post because it's from my heart and it's a pushback to the misogynistic tone that's typically the "default." :3

So many people say freedom when they really mean they want themselves to be the beneficiaries of societal power imbalances instead of someone else.

Just watch how many people brag about how everyone is going to have to beg them for all the bitcoin they bought early.

It is a subtle difference a lot of times but it matters a lot.

There is deep insecurity there. I feel confident that on a level playing field I'll win, so I don't need to put down others or beg for advantage. Totally different mindset.

this~!

you put the feeling into words :3

The Primal trending algorithm uses exclusively post interactions counts with

10 for replies, 5 for reposts, 2 for zaps, 1 for likes or something like that.

To this day I do not understand why replies are a good metric as it primarily brews controversy

Primal sucks.

Replies indicate genuine interaction and user investment. Thoughtful or frequent commenting can signal virality.

Whereas other engagements can be done in a single click.

I can understand that, but I have regularly found that GM posts, and controversial content tends to acquire more replies than high-quality content.

Taking any interaction at face value in a recommendation system is going to cause issues, over and over. Context matters.

Alternative approach?

Analyzing content based on context.

I had worked on a Nostr content recommendation system about 2 years ago, and it was pretty accurate.

I’m considering eventually resuming this after I finish more important stuff.

Eventually we’ll need to use a system like this. In the meantime, on our Web app we provide alternative trending feeds including a trending w/o ā€œGMā€ messages

They still use the same metric value system but weā€˜ve found them to be less spammy

> world altering potential

Bitcoin has the potential to suck everything out of your pocket that you've worked for and nothing else.

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Been thinking on this myself …some different categories tho

What categories do you see?

Hmm I realized one of mine might fit into #3. The Better King/Better Boss/Better Ruler person - who aligns most with power and excuses their treatment of less powerful people to get to becoming this…so in reality is not better is moral grandstanding

And maybe the elitist righteous knowledge as power is really subcategory of 3 as well (many times people actually not having done the hard hard work to TRY to understand and learn). Have seen ridiculous statements about the fiat suckers going to useless work-yet the people saying that would not have food, housing, cars, goods and services without much of that work. Not very wise :)

I don't know that a solution exists beyond time and careful discernment. I cut out a longtime friend recently who was always pretty extreme and hard to be friends with in the first place, but over time it became clear they didn't really respect me and the choices I make. There was a shift around money and politics. If I wasn't 100% with them I was a fool against them. Not even sure what I was to them now.

"Sometimes, stepping away from relationships that don’t serve us can be the healthiest choice. It’s tough to navigate those shifts, but prioritizing your own values and peace is so important. Here’s to finding connections that uplift and respect your journey! 🌱✨"

IMO these divisions are not natural - they are cultivated by people who want there to be divisions among bitcoiners. And these people are persistent and loud, so it appears that there are a lot of them.

While bitcoin surely fixes a lot, maybe we should cultivate a culture of "bitcoin only, leave the baggage out."

Leave the baggage out is a great point. So many people feel the need to attach their other ideas to bitcoin. Christianity and being a republican are common annoyances to me. Then to them they no true scotsman people who don't share both because they do.

I'm an atheist and I do post about that sometimes. I don't attach the ideas and demand others make the same connection.

The only exception I tolerate is libertarian, anarchist, and agorist since the nature of bitcoin and the writings of Satoshi both call for reduced government power.

Hmm, that might be a hint and I might oughtta take it. I do post about Christianity and bitcoin fairly regularly, but that's not because I'm on team Christianity - Christians have made it quite clear that I am only welcome if I conform to their ideas, which I won't do. The reason I purposely mix the two is that I recognize their intransigence and see it as a desirable trait for the team that actually matters to me, which is bitcoin/liberty. I also see that in Islam, and I occasionally try to make arguments that they would recognize... They probably also would exclude me unless I conform, but it doesn't matter because the bigger picture matters more to me. But my experience so far has been that they speak in a milder and less condemnatory manner than Christians, and I think that's noteworthy. Personally, I think I'm a Christian, but not part of Christianity, if that makes sense. I would not have any problem attending a mosque or synagogue or Buddhist temple or anything. There are no demons there. Only good people.

Mixing Christianity with being Republican is repulsive. They seem unaware that by doing so, they play the role of Antichrist, which is to say, they push people away from God. They create atheists by their willful ignorance. And the next level up, Zionism... What greater proof could there be that they don't understand the Bible? Man I could rant about that... Gotta restrain myself.

Okay... Sorry. I'm sure you hated reading all this religious crap.

I've unfollowed all the people I was talking about. I don't mind you so much because you are thinking. I couldn't take all the posts from people who use their Christianity as a way to absolve themselves of thought or personal responsibility. Watch how many Christian posts have follow or obey or a synonym in them.

There is also a difference between posting about 2 different topics and trying to make them the same thing. Take ham radio as a more absurd example. I post about it but I don't try to hunt for a convoluted logic I can post to argue that satoshi would want us all to do ham radio.

šŸ¤” actually, I bet Satoshi does want us all doing ham radio...

Christian, anarchist, ham, programmer, and permaculture farmer. Anyone who isn't all of the above isn't a real bitcoiner.

I'm sure there are a couple I missed.

Carnivore too

That obey thing is pretty close to the heart of the matter, both for my beef with Christians and the OP note here. Obey what? They will answer, "god," but that's being clever and evasive. They mean obey them or their team, and their team is just a convenient proxy for themselves. They are literally Antichrist. Antichrist is such a useful concept... I wish people thought about it more. Its not a specific man. Its you... Not saying you specifically - everyone. I can prove that scripturally, I was just reading the relevant verses like 20 minutes ago. What demands obedience? Ego. Antichrist. Jesus said to some people that their father is below and his is above - this isn't some idolatrous assertion of demon-gods in hell and heaven - there's a higher and lower self in everyone, and its the same self in everyone, and one is death and dies, and one is life and doesn't die. Death / da'at requires obedience and it enslaves yourself with sin, and that enslavement to sin gets externalized, the shadow gets pushed onto others. The Christians demanding obedience have not conquered death, and they are not in Christ.

And they can't read this and understand, because they can't separate the symbol from the idol in their mind. Its a tragedy on a cosmic scale, it really is...

I seem to recall verses about a great mass delusion leading everyone to false idols. I don't recall them being taught without explicitly being told that the deluded were outside our church.

The bible is a giant book written over thousands of years. Easy to find an argument for anything you want in there.

There's an apocryphal text (I want to say "secret book of john," but not totally sure) that predicted that the earthly church would be replaced by a counterfeit church. Almost all, and possibly all idk, apocryphal texts were written before the NT was put together. Good thing Jesus was never talking about the earthly Church! I walked away from one denomination (they'd throw a fit for being called a denomination) because of that specific self serving misinterpretation. There were other misinterpretations, but that was the last straw.

They **_are_** cults... the denominations, the churches. Atheists are right in calling then such.

Love what you say about leaving the baggage out. 😃

I find it fascinating that we humans can corrupt anything and everything we touch on. That is the reality of humanity.

We have to learn to focus on what resonates and makes the most sense for us.

I think Bitcoin is truly neutral. It is a tool that can be very powerful or very useless, depending on who wields the tool.

All innovations serve to maximize personal corruption... Maybe too absolute of a way to think, but that's how it seems to me.

I had a fallout with a bitcoiner, maybe 2 years ago, because he disagreed with me regarding the fact that the constitution is just a piece of paper that literally cannot limit government. I was surprised how big of a statist he was.

The nonsensical infighting is what really blows my mind. I see them arguing about such trivial things. Last week I recognized the fact that these people will make an enemy out of someone when there isn’t clear evidence of malicious intent.

I don’t think it’s your experience in a cult that made you adopt this us vs them mindset. This is our tribalism that we evolved with. It exists in every aspect of life. Politicians dems vs republicans. Sports lakers vs Celtics or whatever team. Video games PlayStation vs Xbox vs pc gaming. In comics marvel vs dc. Race. Religion. Money. Whatever you can think of, you’ll probably find some tribalistic tendencies of humans behind it.

The last point I’ll make it is that Bitcoin is not a thing. It doesn’t actually influence you to change your life. Not directly right. It’s a tool. It’s just digital money. I know this is blasphemy. ā€œBitcoin fixes thisā€ is a fun meme but in reality we simply use Bitcoin and we make our own changes. It gives us more power over our lives and more options about how we build our future. Bitcoin has normies too but we don’t hear their voices because they’re arguing about other things.

I think your recognition of the 3 recurring patterns was spot on.

I think you’ve contributed significantly to solutions with your analyses of the problems. I’m deliberately referring to the plural because the situation is complex. There is not just one problem and there is no simple solution.

Your ā€œrantā€ is excellent and clear. You’ve confronted and made complexity a bit easier to understand and begin thinking about how best to go forward - as a unique individual and has part of a voluntary group of diverse individuals.

Thank you!

I'm definitely a 2. Took me a long time to realize that Bitcoin didn't seem broken itself

My observation was that, in its early days, Bitcoin selected for ppl high in intelligence and low in ego.... ego was kept in check because Bitcoin was still unproven... but as it's become increasingly apparent that Bitcoin (and by extension, bitcoiners) is right, this has created space for egos to inflate

....I'm becoming increasingly convinced that ALL of humanity's ills can be traced back to ego.

Agreed. I've been working on losing my ego, dropping it off at the door and generally trying to listen better. For over 12 months. Then I get triggered and slap myself silly for being such an ass. I'll try again tomorrow.

One observation that comes to mind is that we will rarely find what it is we truly need from other groups of people. You could generalize this to ā€œ-ismsā€.

We have to forge our own path. Each and every one of us. Because we’re all broke in unique ways. To choose another’s path is to discover their unique blend of brokenness. To adopt a group’s path is to adopt all of their brokenness.

I gave up looking for hope in things and people. I’m just chasing internal peace, now. And, if I can help someone along the way with what I’ve learned, great. Could I be wrong, ignorant, or early in my journey? Absolutely. People can take what they deem worthy and discard the rest, just as I do with their observations.

For now, we experience the world in isolation. Even when surrounded with people. Our thoughts, mental models, and feelings are only for us. Therefore, we must discover our way in isolation. To adopt another’s path is to likely walk in the wrong direction.

Just be yourself. And let everyone else do the same. We are a collective of individuals. Be broken in your own unique way. Find the things that bring you your own measure of peace.

Bitcoin is something that is outside the norm. If you are a Bitcoiner you are operating at the edge. this is not a habitat for normies, but one for extremists. I like extremists, because they are in most cases more interesting, but it can be painful to interact with them, especially when they think that they are walking a righteous path powered by political tribalism.

Solution? No idea. Just to stay humble, accept other opinions, block haters, stack sats.

There are no solutions to this problem unless you are a very persuasive person

Have you noticed it's impossible to find consensus among Libertarians? not just politial thoery or public policy but where to order on door dash

>They aren’t just fighting for something—they’re fighting to stay someone.

Did you come up with that? That is black-hole-level compact.

I think it’s what it’s best with it. Chaotic avant-garde madness. Contrarianism, risk-taking, anti-censorship schizoposting. That’s untamed freedom for you. Bitcoiners just pave the way to a new world a new thinking a new vision.

Makes sense. People are people and they can change for the better or worse.

Sometimes an asshole with bitcoin is just an asshole with hard money.

When I got into btc I naively thought that we were all in it to make the world a better place and push humanity to the next level (lol so naive). It’s been sad to see many ppl into btc only for the money (your power hungry analysis) and whose ego has gotten out of control

I guess it cannot be helped, the world is broken in so many ways so it’s normal that so many people are broken themselves in some ways. Hopefully after being in btc for a while they will change as their situation improves, but only if they are ā€œinfectedā€ by the well-meaning ethos of some bitcoiners and really work on themselves (I personally see a lot of self-introspection and development in the btc community ethos)

I guess it also depends where you look, my northern starts are uncle rockstar and Jeff Booth, my god such compassionate and loving individuals who have their ego in check (for now) and really seems to care about making the world a better place

The solution? There will always be shit ppl everywhere, especially in this ill macro-context, but hopefully the good people will keep grinding, showing how good it feels to act this way, and their energy will eventually overwhelm most of bad actors. I’m a bit of a fucking hippy myself, and believe that overwhelming people with love and compassion will eventually melt their sickness away (most of them, let’s be realistic, some will never open their heart/mind and will never ill)

On the misogyny topic I also noticed that in the btc space there seems to be a more than average presence. The gender war is absolutely real and it’s priority #1 for me. While we men try to do our best in our male circles, ladies please also do your part in your female circles (I smoothed out so many women in my life, who though I hated women just because I hate feminism, how crazy is that?!)

Thanks for your post and don’t get discouraged, better to die with hope than to live a life of depression ā™„ļøšŸ˜

Thanks for sharing your insightful rant; appreciated, along with the thoughtful discussion it's engendered below.šŸ™šŸ»šŸ’–šŸ«‚šŸ˜

I also grew up Christian, and I still follow King Jesus, but it's very evident that "Christianity," both mainstream and cultish, has gotten a well-deserved bad rap.

I see parallels; all too much of what is generally seen as "Christianity" has little to do with what Jesus actually taught; likewise with bitcoin and the worldview of Satoshi and the cypherpunks.

Thank Jesus/God, the true heart and blessings of both continue to grow no matter who's involved, I believe largely in part because (as many have observed) bitcoin is the closest thing the world has yet seen to the biblical ideal of "honest weights and measures."

I've resonated with other respondents to your rant, both Christian and atheist, in that the ONLY coercion I see in Jesus' message and the only compulsion I employ when presenting it AND bitcoin to others is:

***"Hey, Friend! Look here! I care enough about you to encourage you to have a REALLY close look at (...[Jesus]...[bitcoin]...), and experience how much better your life could be as a result."***

And so I write, extensively, from a voluntaryist perspective, while doing my best to listen carefully to everyone of good will, no matter their present belief system, because I believe I still have much of value to learn from them.

https://peakd.com/money/@creatr/money

https://peakd.com/library/@creatr/the-kingdom-of-jesus-god-the-heavens-my-library-shelf

Enjoy this really interesting thread:

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Bitcoiners are individuals. The only thing you can do is help the people you love, and make yourself better every day. Trying to chsnge the hearts of others, or suppress dissent, is how we got to clown world in the first place.

Yes, but we can be good influences or bad influences.