Nostr Web Client

If you want to comply that's up to you.

This attitude is the main reason why it fails.

Maybe it's people like you who are the reason we all have to live in a regulatory hellscape.

You don’t actually own your content unless you can also remove it. If you can’t, then it isn’t yours and never was.

So the sats you own are not yours?

That’s different, because there’s an immutable blockchain involved.

There’s no requirement of immutability on the Nostr protocol.

Once you integrate easy ways to delete content, Nostr's property of being censorship-resistant is rendered obsolete. Every regulator will compel the deletion of content they dislike.

I see censorship resistance more as the ability to post without being banned, but it’s actually potentially dangerous for someone who needs to remove content that could compromise their security to not be able to do so. It’s a double-edged sword. Once your content is on relays, it’s out of your hands, but you should be able to sign a deletion event that relays will honor.

You will be banned effectively if everything you sign gets deleted immediately by someones decree.

The Daniel 🖖 7mo ago 💬 1

I don’t follow. You still have to sign the events with your own key. As for what data relays hold, they are not required to maintain anything for you.

But you want to implement easy ways to delete content globally to comply with laws, etc. If you do so, it will be used by third parties too. Now, it's almost impossible to delete something for real because no relay is forced to follow your request, which is great. It's like real life: if you run through the city and scream something crazy, most likely the people who hear you will never forget and will keep spreading the story by telling others about you. On the other hand, if you do nothing out of the ordinary, most likely everyone will forget after a while. The same will happen on Nostr with relays. Just like in real life, people should think before they say something in public, which might help to ensure that people don't act like idiots too, as your reputation is always on the line.

In case the features you want are implemented one day, be sure that I will personally build a bot that copies all your notes with references to your account and posts them again and again 🤪

Bitcoineros del Occidente de El Salvador 7mo ago

Your approach consists in warning that with the integration of a deletion option, we'd rapidly face the same dependence on third parties than the one that has grown a lot in the ecosystem with the rise of custodial wallets.

Would it be technically feasible for a company to offer "custodied" Nostr accounts to their clients, meaning that in last instance the company could decide on which Notes - or accounts - to delete? If so, such a scenario must be prevented.

The Daniel 🖖 7mo ago 💬 1

You’re missing my point, which is that relay can already delete your content at will. All I’m suggesting is that it should be possible for users to sign their own content deletion events that relays and clients honor. It’s already possible (and very easy) for law enforcement to pressure a relay operator into turning over information on their users.

Who will stop me if I build a relay that saves all data and purges every 24 hours all data except the notes that had a deletion request? No one can stop me, so if I don't build it to repost everything that got 'deleted', the governments will do it in secret. To achieve what you're looking for, you would have to "close" nostr, aka turn it into a centralized database like X.

nostr:nevent1qqsq3ud8cz2cswwrjhjuxrsqt4lm0tt244vlq3zu8nhk72lwzaq79dgzypl4c26wfzswnlk2vwjxky7dhqjgnaqzqwvdvz3qwz5k3j4grrt46qcyqqqqqqgpr3mhxue69uhksctkv4hz6ar0deujuv33d9jx2ctn9ehhyecpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsz9nhwden5te0wfjkccte9ehx7um5wghxyctwvs4y70pd

No one can stop you, and everyone by default should assume that governments are scraping everything anyway. I’m well aware that once information is public there is no way to claw it back, but as far as obstacles to user adoption, deletion from relays is still right at the top.

Bitcoineros del Occidente de El Salvador 7mo ago

Such an account managed delete option would offer more flexibility, for sure.

But how could it be dealt with by software that relies on all events' immutability, like "LaWallet", a Bitcoin wallet in which all transactions are basically Nostr events?

semisol 7mo ago

This is false

Kamo Weasel 7mo ago

💯

Ronin 7mo ago

they are possible to enforce in major clients, clients would have to pick relays that comply to all this. And i would seem that you can delete stuff but nothing could stop anyone or other relays to still keep your stuff.

TKay 7mo ago

Agreed.

Kamo Weasel 7mo ago

For #Nostr to escale to millions it must have the same flexibility that #Bitcoin has (mainchain, KYC, no KYC, cold wallet, hot wallet, LN, cashu, centralized exchanges, DEX, Liquid, tokenization... and so goes on and on...). A way for every need of different users.

Siphiwe 7mo ago

💯

Tony 7mo ago

48

48d868b9... 7mo ago

You are 100% right.

Golbez9🔩🤘 7mo ago 💬 1

Agreed. And anyone that says otherwise has ulterior motives

I’m not on the attack against anyone. I’m just pointing out a huge pain point for adoption. Some might choose to go on the offensive against me for saying it, but that’s their problem, not mine.

Golbez9🔩🤘 7mo ago

You’re just pointing out the obvious. These are needed for mainstream adoption

Clippycoiner 7mo ago 💬 1

Why shouldn't one have sovereignty over their own content? It is just a step above what NOSTR is, sovereignty over your own profile.

Basically to compete with twitter, you need to offer the same ease of use features. Makes sense

I don’t see it as direct competition, but the expectation that content can be deleted is probably the biggest obstacle.

I used to be one who thought people would learn to adapt to not having these options, but nearly three years on, there isn’t just the user growth to support that theory.

User growth is a big problem. Bluesky has 3.5M daily active users. I don’t get it 🤣

Very simple. Users there prefer enclaves where they can block anyone they don’t want to intract with from seeing their content, and they can delete anything.

Also, they are very good at marketing, since there’s a company behind it.

Marketing must be a huge part of it. We always joke about nostr marketing department. Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad idea

We could never agree on anything, lol.

You want to know why companies (even most bitcoin companies) aren’t here?

The same reasons.

Lmao even the bitcoiners here disagree on everything. Hilarious and sad (for adoption)

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 7mo ago

i think it's just because nostr users are mostly introverted, skeptical people, and there's not that many of that kind of people in the population, and because we are all here, the normies find not just things like no delete but no hidden hand guiding them to endless hyperstimulation uncomfortable

it's just not the place for sheep, we are not sheep, and loyalty to nostr is more important than endless waves of bullshit scandal and spectacles, we are here to have a conversation without any machines manipulating our feed

All of this is true and none of it invalidates any of my initial points.

This makes sense. Pretty sure there’s more people in normie land who would enjoy this if they knew about it

BaronBurdock 7mo ago

Don't say that too loud or Fiatjaf will go on his fucking stupid crusade against Amethyst again.

il_lost_ 7mo ago

- relay with other currencies

- nostria has launched a project to reach one million active users

One million users who will get disillusioned and leave immediately when they see what a clusterfuck the UX is like. 😆

il_lost_ 7mo ago

no they are at pre-seed, that will be the final goal

Erik 7mo ago

Additionally, lets scale communities first. Then worry about global.

Im in the camp of no deletes but also run your own node if you dont want deletes 😅🤷‍♂️

Keep #nostr growing 💜

Communities for sure. This is a different environment than what the masses are used to. This is why I never really agreed that Nostr would eliminate centralized platforms.

Kayne 7mo ago

You have a point but not being able to delete stuff is something I like about nostr.

I've learnt to proof read before posting my comments checking for typos and that's really the only issue I had.

Don Dahir 7mo ago

I kinda don’t want nostr to scale to millions, I like this little tribe ❤️

R 7mo ago 💬 1

When nostr scales to millions without doing any of that, you won’t be able to delete this note😂

Clippycoiner 7mo ago

Actually yes it will if the consensus of the humans who use NOSTR decide that having sovereignty over your own content is worth it.

R 7mo ago

I don’t think the nostr network will ever have consensus that you have sovereignty over the notes and other stuff you chose to send to other people’s relays. That’s like expecting a book author to have the authority to tell everyone they’ve changed their mind and want all books returned.

CarteBlanche 7mo ago

This isn’t possible because users have sovereignty over their relays. You can’t enforce deletion/editing of content.

Garbage nsec 7mo ago

You have good takes. I fully agree.

This could be possible if all relays you use are running in trusted execution environments in the cloud. That means a reliance on AWS or GCP and higher costs for the relay. In return, users of the relay can be confident that the relay is doing what it says it is doing, and not doing what it says it is not doing (the degree of confidence depending on the setup, higher-confidence setup = higher cost).

Such a relay might also verify a note's signature but obscure the signature from clients, thereby making it impossible for clients to broadcast the note with the signature intact. (The code for this would of course have to be attestable to put clients at ease.) If all that were possible and done, and if you only wrote to such relays, then you could be sure that you could delete your notes with traces of them limited to screenshots and whatnot.

That's all very against the ethos of "as simple and cheap as possible" though.

₿oniz23⚡️🏴‍☠️🇮🇹 7mo ago

In my opinion, the most powerful thing about us is that. That everything published is potentially carved into the rock. Like bitcoin transactions in the blockchain. I think it's a strong point not a point of disadvantage.

omniacollective 7mo ago

Not sure if you understand how nostr work. (Don shoot us for this)

– All clients offer a delete option that permanently hides a note that a user requested to delete, even from other clients

> nostr, unlike other, is decentralized. notes are not store on clients but on relays. Usually the relays you connect your client to. Some are free, some charge a fee. The free one are under no obbligation to delete notes at people's will.

To solve this problem you can run your own relay and make it reachable by the network. In that way you manage your data.

– All note types are editable to allow users to fix tags and typos

– Users can un-like and un-repost content if they change their mind

> that depends on the client

A

– Account deletion allows for all content posted by a user to be purged

> similar to the first point

omniacollective 7mo ago

Also, deleting a message on X and others does not mean it is deleted. It's just not dispayed. They keep it on their server.

I know this, and everyone should, but it’s still a barrier to adoption.

Garbage nsec 7mo ago

The most common reaction to a button that says "request delete" is "what the hell do you mean 'request'?!" Everything else is just a few nerds reasoning it out.

If Nostr in an all public form has no ambition to scale to 1m users and beyond then that's all fine. If it does then that's a huge problem.

It all comes down to ambition to scale. What's the ambition? What's the goal? What's the desired number?

I’ve used Nostr for two and a half years, and I am very aware of how things work.

I’m simply pointing out something I see as a blocker for a majority of users.

Hardly anyone is going to run their own relay, they’ll just go somewhere else.

Eric FJ 🪬⚡️ 7mo ago

Even on centralized platforms you can never be certain about deletion since others can screenshot/archive. So I’m going to assume you are looking for a reasonably effective delete/edit solution that competes with what’s out there.

We might get reasonably effective delete/edit functionality within coordinated clients at some point, but it will never ever be absolute. A proper decentralized solution here also requires time stamps… and everybody hates the guy that made NIP-03 possible right now so I don’t see it being solved soon.

The thing that really matters for deletion anyway is media- which is a reference that you can (and should) maintain control of. Delete the source and voila. But the screenshotting/right-clicking risk remains.

I was in the no-delete absolutist camp until nostr:nprofile1qqsf07zg4hxyccnkdp07fppxmetpfzru3fg6mgzx3nk8r7af8qnjjygpr9mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctv9uq3vamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwd4hhxarj9ec82c30gr0un9 correctly made a point that kids can be dumb and should be able to delete photos. So I agree with his concerns there (and encourage people to self host media if that’s a concern). I remain skeptical of the feasibility of deleting direct event data contained in JSON that is broadcast and bounced around relays beyond anyone’s control.

Ultimately decentralized designs require tradeoffs, and this is one issue among many that get amplified… and where the only true solution is *personal responsibility*. It is not solvable in an absolute sense, and all solutions require tradeoffs towards centralization (yes, including client coordination).

Toad 7mo ago

if we all stood anonymous (and not use our "followers" as thing to give our argument more weight, therefore also moving to new profiles/keys here and there, would be an option. but yeah i have no clear opinion either. the "public person on nostr" usecase is still an important usecase. but the fact remains: it's probably what got wiped from the history books and other sources, that is most interesting or most relevant. i hate delete buttons, i only like them for myself, if you catch my meaning.

Lululuna 7mo ago

Agreed.

Jake Woodhouse 7mo ago

For sure had situations in which I posted something that I realised had a simple typo and it would have been much better if there was an edit option

The flip side: people are more accountable to what they post. You can be wrong. But you can’t hide it. I think I like this given my experience thus far

KP 🧡⚡️ 7mo ago

I like the fact you can't delete....it kind of reflects real life. If you say something in a public room, words that come our of your moth - you can't delete. You can say sorry I did not mean to say that and I take it back. Choose words carefully when you say something - just like in real life.

I’ve said similar things before. But from observing the depressing user adoption rate over the past two years, it’s becoming obvious to me that this is one of the reasons.

KP 🧡⚡️ 7mo ago

Adoption rate doesn’t bother me personally - quality content and good people - folks will come and some will stay. Others didn’t belong here with the ethos anyways. I am free to say interact and have a choice to not be steered by Algos - just works fine. Fun, music, memes. Some prefer better versus bigger.

KELBIE | sovran.money 7mo ago

I tried to onboard a user. I explained they can't delete posts and that was an immediate deal breaker.