What is the biggest hurdle Nostr faces? It’s easy to look at things through rose-colored glasses — everyone here is a massive supporter simply by using it, so there’s an inherent bias. Curious how well some can play devil’s advocate…
Discussion
The nsfw content
That’s a feature, not a bug of a permissionless protocol. Anyone can be muted.
Do some clients come with a nsfw toggle switch by any chance?
I use Amethyst and it seems to filter the NSFW pictures pretty well (a click to show warning).
Almost every good client is providing a "clean" feed. Amethyst is probably the best. You won't get not suitable things on Amethyst if you don't deliberately seek it out. If you want to add not suitable content you can but I don't know how you would then toggle back to a clean feed. Probably just login with a different nsec with different follows would be the easiest. #grownostr
AGREED
Not very well. Nostr is coming for Amazon in a big way!
Why would I tell you nostrs weaknesses?
You would try shut nostril down in a heartbeat if you knew Amazon will soon have competition for marketplaces.
There’s no stopping an idea whose time has come. If Nostr succeeds, there’s no stopping it. I would like to get ahead of that before that happens to find ways to implement it. That’s why I’m here — to learn.
Here’s something you’re going to have to chew on.
One of the goals of decentralized protocols like nostr is to prevent any entity from gaining too much power over the flow of information. That includes all the big tech companies. Like Twitter, Google, and yes, Amazon. Deep down, many nostriches see themselves as the enemy of Big Tech!
You’re going to have to decide what to do with that. One suggestion: follow Jack’s example. Step down from Amazon. Sell however much you can reasonably sell. These things will make it easier to think deeply about what needs to come next.
Why do this? Bc the world needs it. And by building Amazon, you’ve already helped usher in one revolution that needed to happen. Mission accomplished. What could be more fun than to help usher in the next? 😃
I think Apple just recently tried to block a feature of Nostr. So I might say “incumbent institutions”.
But I also think that, other than water, no product or service or platform needs to be for everybody… so nostr is already serving so many
Nostr est Protocole ouvert à tous où l'on peut créér interagir ensemble en toute sainteté d'esprit libre, point d'influeuceurs même si la tendance est tentante, les médias et les puplicitaires dedans n'ont aucune influence... puisque noyés dans la multitude de choses qu'on y découvre, en plus des enjeux de création d'outils sur lesquels chacun est libre de donner son avis de manière collaborative ou non...tout notre Monde bizarre est sur nostr
1) Network Effect (slowly being overcome)
2) Going from Email+Password to npub+nsec
3) verification requires existing wallet with existing balance and knowledge how to use it
4) finding frens without an algorithm
I wake up every morning thinking about this.
Right now, we don't have enough implementations creating more decentralization, rather, the opposite.
Relay traversal/discoverability + specialization is fundamental for the decentralization of Nostr (and for scaling without completely relying on large infrastructure deployment of relays).
Many clients implement something called the outbox model (formerly known as gossip protocol).
The TL;DR is: what happens if all relays ban you? how will your followers find you in a personal relay you operate in your home? That's what this model solves.
We need more clients supporting this.
I am the maintainer of a library called NDK (ndk,fyi) which seeks to implement this model so that any client can trivially implement this model of transparent relay discoverability / traversal.
I think as the ecosystem evolves, relay discovery and relay based moderation tools will be needed to help decentralization and help for content. A permisionless Wikipedia is nice, but users likely would want curated mini-wikis either by topic or to incentivize quality (paid relays or social-trust based inclusivity) and keep a high signal information landscape.
Great podcast with nostr:npub1jlrs53pkdfjnts29kveljul2sm0actt6n8dxrrzqcersttvcuv3qdjynqn and nostr:npub1kuy0wwf0tzzqvgfv8zpw0vaupkds3430jhapwrgfjyn7ecnhpe0qj9kdj8 touching upon specialty relays.
Pour
The ability to form groups/group chat.
A content ratio with more posts about life events and achievements, instead of 90% about Bitcoin and NOSTR.
One of the biggest issues is the inconsistent ways apps implement the protocol and it’s features. We need more developers building the best experiences for onboarding new users.
Key management is also critical. nostr:npub1earna05hx6ax38r33h3atmecjzdu547m8suw87w70aw6mlyga4hsqcja5j addresses this by burying the key behind a login, but that means your key isn’t portable if you created it there, so you can’t use it to sign into other services. One of the most amazing things about #nostr is that one identity can be used anywhere and you don’t have to hand over an email address to be able to use it.
Third, it’s really important that people understand that this is an open protocol and not a platform. Anything can be built on it, and there’s no company making arbitrary decisions as to what users can see and do. This has led to accusations from users on other platforms that nostr is a haven for racists and bigots. I’ve been called a “Nazi” just for using it. But what they don’t understand is that we’re creating a new type of community with its own standards, and those are enforced by voluntary value-for-value #V4V transactions. I don’t see toxic content being promoted and zapped here. People just seem much nicer to each other because they are celebrating the ability to choose the content they engage with and they reward it with something that has real-world value.
Likes are dead. Long love the #zap!
Figuring out communities:
How to hide from view NSFW (and even more grotesque content) from the 95% of normal people that would immediately delete the app if they saw it.
How to aggregate data and comments. When millions are posting we’ll need to be able to aggregate ideas through the best posters, while not completely hiding others of the same viewpoint.
Disparate relays mean disparate access to information, loss of information, and challenges with finding information.
All the good clients have solved the smut problem for the most part. I see close to zero smut on Amethyst.
Agreed. Many think NSFW is a feature, not a but. But the mainstream user will not want to see this. I anticipate a client who can hide this effectively will garner more users. Zapped!
Thanks!
It’s not just NSFW too. It’s designing communities that work overall.
Today Nostr is small (I’d love to see data on total Notes posted per day, user count etc), but it’s growing.
How will we parse data and highlight notes when there are tens of millions of notes per day, vs thousands.
Many of those notes crossing the same themes and ideas and many exactly the same?
Building communities around the most insightful minds while also maintaining an open forum will be incredibly important for the growth of Nostr.
Does anyone know if any former Twitter engineers are involved with Nostr? Seems to me that knowledge of how some of these issues got dealt with (or not) there would be useful. Nostr is not reinventing the wheel, it’s a new type of machine, but it probably still needs bearings, maybe some rubber and must conform to the laws of physics.
We don’t yet have a working implementation of decentralized reputation and web of trust.
I think one of the biggest hurdles will be privacy. I don’t think most normies will understand that most of what they post will be spread across the world on relays owned by people/entities who may or may not be ethical.
I think about Instagram and all the personal photos/videos that users post knowing with a certain degree of confidence that it can’t be seen by those who they have not given permission to.
It will be interesting to see how this protection will be provided for them. If not, I think for this reason most normies would be out.
state attack and even big companies
A wholly original client. There’s an overpopulation of the next Twitter replacement etc. General population won’t move or stay until there’s a client that offers a unique experience.
Many consider the npub/nsec transition to be a large hurdle. I think it’s an opportunity to have a more seamless user experience in the future. Where you can move through clients like your walking into and out of a store on Main Street. People hate having to create new accounts for each thing.
Another hurdle is that Nostr places the onus on the user to curate their own experience. Some people want moderation and curation. They’ve become accustomed to it. They’re used to having an online experience where their hand is held. So getting users to take back their locus of control is a shift even for those building. User experience has long focused on how they can make a user do something. You won’t get to a wholly original client with that mindset.
I think 2 reasonable issues in the future will be:
1- Economic incentives for storage in relays (specially images and videos), eventually several relays will be paid (though cheaply, still an entry barrier)
2- Spamming and widely considered undesirable content being sent. (Platforms and local apps might need to create some basic AI for enhancing UX)
But I do think both of those issues are able to be reasonably solved 😉
1. Privacy. Public-by-default needs to go away eventually.
2. Fracturing of the protocol. Permissionless is great, until no one is willing to adopt one another's standards and you lose interoperability.
3. Capture. Large relays and vertically-integrated clients are the lazy way to get good UX. But shortcuts increase centralization risk. And that's if a large entity doesn't Extend Embrace Extinguish the protocol.
Great points. Zapped
Can't we just spam here, because it's less pretentious than Facebook, less toxic than X, smarter than TikTok and more fun than Mastodon?
Adoption will occurr insofar as the zap economy grows.
If people aren't willing to put up their goods & services payable in zaps,
&/or others aren't willing to pay for said goods & services,
Nostr will stay with a niche user base focused on censorship resistance.
I keep coming back to the potential for race conditions as events propagate through nodes.
Related, key management.
communities like mine at https://shorturl.at/bitEN
I had a little trouble making a link so I used a URL shortener. Some apps have communities and some don't. So far I pulled off my first art community. I really may not copy post links. Not sure if I can copy note ID link addresses at communities but least I came this far. https://iris.to/note174z8x9zv838eker5cy8hkdsg5y4luvyw7ecdqj3v85vlj4pgecyquq66sv
I can’t find anything written on how Nostr would scale in a decentralized way
Until we have the ability to delete self-published content on this decentralized network, self-sovereignty eludes us. #nostr
nostr:note1zuz72hz2hkrazklrhmcnc4k7wfayc0ysxgqv42hkxarde0nf5nlsh2d6tq
The biggest problem in my view will be dealing with undesired content. This includes both spam and illegal material. Since the protocol is permissionless, any relay can join the network. Any free-of-charge relay will be flooded with garbage, forcing people to use paid relays, which will be a turnoff for most people accustomed to "free" social media services
Adversarial App Store policies blocking key/core features like zapping notes and content directly. There are workarounds that tech savvy users will use, but most people will use whatever is available in their app stores.
Separately, the risk of some large and well-funded company creating proprietary features or apps that gain popularity due to better marketing, legal avenues, etc, and lock users in, rather than letting users take full advantage of the open nature of the network protocol. The portability of your identity is key to Nostr’s appeal, and anything that prohibits that portability is ultimately bad for users.
Child sexual abuse material and child sexual exploitation.
Create friction and restrict relays that host the content.
The community can raise awareness and take a vocal stand against bad actors.
Education and awareness can prevent the crime from happening in the first place.
This is a big issue. The feature/bug is freedom to interact/post what you want.
As Nostr grows I suspect there may be clear and darknet equivalents of nostr where clients ban content based on crowdsourced reporting of accounts/content.
State actors and their supporters oppose platforms that cannot be controlled to surveil, comply with search warrants and legal rulings, and censor according to legislation and regulations. The EU DSA is an example. They may influence mobile platforms, whereby the app store is controlled by a central authority, to ban Nostr clients on the basis of regulatory non-compliance.
I just sent a wellness newsletter out to clients and told them I was on NOSTR and provided my npub.
I provided a link to an article explaining what it was in non-technical terms and provided another link to an article I wrote with links to set up a client and a wallet.
It feltl like a big ask for my mostly boomer clientele.
However, I'm tracking click throughs and people are clicking on the NOSTR links so there is some curiosity about what it is.🙌
So education is the first step. Then hopefully the onboarding becomes more seamless. It's a lot of steps for non tech people.
#skepticalsundays was a thing.
Distinguishing which nostr accounts are bots and which are humans.
Without this nostr will face problems. Humans want to debate with humans and not be manipulation targets.
Creating value to the users as well as the companies and individuals investing in it.
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Would it not also be interesting to hear where people see the most potential instead of the biggest hurdle?
if the network gets bigger, content moderation / filtering spam, bots, account farming, illegal content will become a big challenge for nostr, maybe already is.
This is a huge issue, indeed.
It's too easy for malicious actors to just create a trillion npubs, each posting the same spam message.
I have already experienced such attempt. Luckily it was "only" made out of ~50 spam accounts. Was really annoying though, because it used a lot of tags & obviously you have to block once per post, since every npub just posted one post, each....
I think It's a chicken and egg problem
If bitcoin is understood and adopted by everyone, nostr adoption will be easier as everyone appreciate zap
Hence Migrating content creators from other platforms will be a challenge, because they first have to appreciate Bitcoin as value transfer. And. Zaps culture need to be big enough to be able to surpass ads revenue for content creator to want to move here.
Otherwise I feel nostr will continue to be for niche segment only
Like it or not perhaps nostr need a client that have algorithms for trending/popular post as that is the thing content creator relies on to maximize their revenue stream and continue to create content
Scalability.
Imagine, every relay has to contain at least 90% of all user data, where theoretically each post can be as long as a book & there would be millions of users, each posting several long posts daily. I don't know how an independent, decentralised system can do this for more than 10 years, especially since Moore's Law isn't like in the 2000's anymore.
Just imagine not earning satoshis while playing solitaire!
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