Nostr Web Client

I wouldn’t even know where to buy Monero. I do know Fluffy pony bought a Challenger Jet and a couple Richard Mille watches based on his fair play on giving himself millions of coins.. privacy is good but playing fair is another thing!

Papa Figos 10mo ago

lol that's cheap. How many O.G bitcoiners are rich beyond belief now? Why don't you dunk on them?

Fluffypony was involved with Monero from the start (or close to it, I don't recall anymore), and the project was successful, so he profited accordingly.

How is this different than anything else?

Satoshis Nephew 10mo ago

Dude it’s sarcasm… Monero must do what Monero must do..

I haven’t heard of an OG bitcoiner buying a jet and flaunting their wealth like that but he must do whatever! No hate..

If it’s the one then all the BTC people are fucked..

12

Deleted Account 10mo ago

Excellent framing

ponymontana💜⚡ 10mo ago

also they cherry pick economic activity from shitcoin sites that happen to be the few places that accept monero. The irrelevance of monero is evident in the chain data, no one uses it.

Telluride 10mo ago

Precisely

rafael_xmr 10mo ago

how is picking data from a shop called "ShopInBit" cherry picking? there's many examples in the thread and so far no one provided a counter example where LN has a lot of total volume traded and XMR has very little to nothing, why does the opposite never happens?

Papa Figos 10mo ago

shitcoin sites, like THE LARGEST CRYPTO-ACCEPTING STORE IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

cope harder, madafaaaaaakaaa

rafael_xmr 10mo ago

> Layer 2 can (and will) solve BTC privacy concerns.

when is that? Layer 2 exists today and is losing ground to xmr lol those are not biased picks, the shop is literally called "ShopInBit", not "ShopInMonero"

thanks for sharing though and even zapping reposters but it seems most of your repliers are bots

Hanshan 10mo ago

I agree that there's a strong case for It just needs to be "good enough"

also people have been saying that LN is going to fix L1 privacy for over five years.

Bitcoin makes L1 tradeoffs that may not be *good enough " for it to function as a p2p money long-term.

Hanshan 10mo ago

homie said it here too.

so for example, LTC doesnt differentiate itself *enough* from Bitcoin to be relevant

but Monero solves some fundamental issues Bitcoin has AND offers functionality it doesn't.

so the Saifedean-inspired BS about "all money returns to one" isnt actually applicable.

they do different things.

nostr:note1hnpp8dszj6g0rpwhw28dml4mcwchwyvjvau7vduncv20qxgkhxeqr88xeq

Telluride 10mo ago

I don’t care if they fix it or not.

(they will)

But in the meantime ill have fun watching my btc grow.

👊🏻🍻🧡

Hanshan 10mo ago

we already know you trust the govt to not come after your stack and dont care about privacy 😬

Tara 10mo ago

This is called a logical fallacy when you make false assertions in a statement

I do care about privacy, I don't trust the govt and they can't get my btc.

none of these arguments will make people care about monero except the price going up.

You have a chicken and the egg problem with most shitcoins.

🌻

Papa Figos 10mo ago

irony

/ī′rə-nē, ī′ər-/

noun

The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.

An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.

Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs.

Hanshan 10mo ago

There have been previous conversations between he and I friend.

If he didnt care about privacy at all, I wouldn't live rent free in his head 😜

The fact is

there is no wealth without privacy.

if they know you have it, it is possible to confiscate it. Otherwise you are just trusting the legal system.

People who actually NEED strong censorship resistance already use monero.

Its also used more than LN for payments anywhere both are accepted.

if "nobody cares" its because you're in an echo chamber and trust the system to protect your private property.

Tara 10mo ago

"there is no wealth without privacy"

this isn't factual.

Hanshan 10mo ago

which is why there are zero methods wealthy people use to obfuscate their assets

obviously 👍

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

Not sure the Canadian truckers would agree

Ask BTC Sessions what happens when you use a transparent traceable ledger to recieve donations for a group that the government does not like.

Knock knock. Who's there?

DRE 10mo ago

The issue is property rights not being respected.

Just because BTC Sessions fucked up doesn’t mean bitcoin wasn’t the right tool for the job.

Shilling number go down monero coin is hard and only gonna get harder. Better to be private and broke than rich and less private said no one ever.

Hanshan 10mo ago

soooo

Bitcoin is the better tool

because we trust the state to protect property rights?

i feel like you missed the original premise.

also

nostr:note144ta8c7qf58c9kpang286d5ccwdkk3vk7wxzy9g2d8y3epu06saqxt82u9

DRE 10mo ago

No, bitcoin is the better tool because it’s the most valuable thing you can transact P2P across borders without trusting a third party.

No one said anything about trusting governments. Individuals can violate your property rights too, or have you not been paying attention to all the wrench attacks.

Hanshan 10mo ago

You're not tracking the conversation homie

The point we were making is that

"it isn't censorship resistant if it's not private"

as did the Canadian trucker circumstance

you said " The issue is property rights not being respected"

So if the solution is not privacy (as I maintain) but instead property rights,

who is guaranteeing those property rights?

Matthew 10mo ago

It's easier to think of as fungibility and privacy being inexorable. Censorship resistance follows from fungibility.

Hanshan 10mo ago

I thought it would be confusing to mention fungibility here

but you're absolutely correct 👍

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

>"The issue is property rights not being respected."

The whole point of Bitcoin is not to rely on political solutions for money dumb dumb

It obviously wasn't the right tool for the job. If they couldn't trace the donations, or better yet not even know anyone was donating at all, the Canadian government wouldn't have gone to confiscate it in the first place. But you are free to continue coping.

DRE 10mo ago

Lol

Manero down bad. I would be upset too if I held that shitcoin. Back to Subway.

Hanshan 10mo ago

lol

every.

single.

time.

your preoccupation with fiat "value" is pathetic

and your lack of ability to hold a conversation about 1st principles outs you as a noob

🤡

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

Hey nostr:npub1fp685rwn5pecyxu7edf49g9r8630tdm440srjvjq5psmtklg56lscnfr2h remember when you said we are "promoting it" for "personal gains" and I said that was pretty ironic considering "all you guys argue about are price charts."?

Lmfao

💯😄

Me at work.

maybe some day

if you work REALLY hard

you'll be able to make substantive and nuanced arguments!

Hanshan 10mo ago

(call them retarded)

(but nicely)

😂

Lemon Slice 10mo ago

Haha

Dhamar 10mo ago

😅

Skipper 10mo ago

Money supply must be transparent, transactions must be private.

Monero is missing the first. Bitcoin has both.

Hanshan 10mo ago

no

give me your best guess

how much of Bitcoin usage is non-custodial noKYC?

Skipper 10mo ago

Kanzan, I don't give a single fuck about how other people use their bitcoin. It's their problem. Majority of bitcoin hodlers are statists that will sell/lose their sats. I couldn't care less about anyone really besides myself, my family and my friends. Bitcoin is for cypherpunks, anti-statists and freedom-maxis, everyone else who doesn't fit that description will NGMI.

Hanshan 10mo ago

its germaine to the discussion how these things are *actually used*

if 1% of "bitcoiners" actually use it in a self-sovereign way

that is the anonset you and I are hiding in.

for example

up to a certain date all my coins went through Whirlpool and were sent to cold storage.

from a Chainanal point of view

I have an anonset of other Whirlpool txs.

they know some utxos went in, were mixed and came out the other side.

thats opt-in privacy.

it's SOMETHING but relatively speaking, it's not a very large anonset.

because 99% of users do nothing.

in contrast to monero.

you see where this is going...

Bitcoin has opt-in privacy. weak opt-in privacy since there's no good tools right now.

even if you jump through all the LN hoops and do everything right

its still a tiny group of people doing that.

so no, transactions are not, in any way "private"

and there's a reason why we have a *default private* L1.

if yall were actually intellectually honest you'd stop trying to pretend like theres anything equivalent.

Skipper 10mo ago

1% bitcoin anonset is still bigger than 100% of Monero.

Hanshan 10mo ago

no its not dude

and 1% is *extremely* generous

rafael_xmr 10mo ago

The irony is you actually described Monero. the supply is transparent, all mining rewards are visible. But the transactions on Monero are private.

Skipper 10mo ago

TheGrinder 10mo ago

Calling Monero a shitcoin is rather ignorant.

ed

ede3d957... 10mo ago

NGU mentality exposed.

NGU follows a sound monetary policy matched with a use case.

Aprendiz 10mo ago

Today I found out that shitcoin defenders use this fallacy a lot. It was a tiring day debating with a Monero defender and having to keep punctuating point by point the fallacies.

Hanshan 10mo ago

lol y'all giving my frenemy Telluride some shit as some kind of "logical fallacy"

pretty desperate I'd say

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

It's not a fallacy it's a demonstrated preference.

Someone says one thing, but their actions reveal their true preference.

Neal 10mo ago

shitcoins themselves are based on a metaphysical fallacy: they mistake accident for essence.

it would be like saying anything with blue eyes is a human being.

beyond retarded

Neal 10mo ago

oh look, a shiny new crypto

so many features

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

Privacy for "p2p electronic cash" is not a shiny feature. It's a core requirement of cash.

It also directly affects it's fungibility and censorship resistance if Bitcoin.

Adam Back talking about the fungibility problem of Bitcoin years ago: https://xcancel.com/DontTraceMeBruh/status/1880019339027575222#m

Full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvS3tp0qqgA

Neal 10mo ago

it’s hair length, eye color, height, weight. an accidental attribute that admits of more or less.

those things don’t define what it means to be human.

the same way privacy doesn’t define money. is privacy a a feature, sure, but it’s not “a core requirement”

whatever is in one’s ass is private, who cares.

if we care about privacy, which i would agree is not a bad thing in itself, then we wouldn’t pump privacy into a base layer shit coin.

if we cared about privacy, we wouldn’t pump developer layer 2s

u build accidents on essence, not swap’em

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

Maybe this will help your confusion

Neal 10mo ago

no, i’m not conflating accidents and essence. no confusion here.

ask yourself what is more important, which one is primary: the road or the car?

it’s not to say there is not some mutual relation between the two, but if there are no cars, there are no roads.

yes, cars benefit from better roads, but what is being transported on the road is primary.

if ur not developing or advocating for more privacy focused layer 2, and just shilling monero, you cannot be taken serious as your actions don’t align with ur purported objectives

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

>"if ur not developing or advocating for more privacy focused layer 2"

I would love a proper L2 (non-custodial, permissionless, private, simple defaults) so Monero would no longer be needed. That's not the case right now, so I mostly transact with Monero.

I'll always use the best tool for the job. I can't use things that don't exist yet or sit on my hands and wait another 15 years until Bitcoin gets it's shit together. Monero is superior for private transactions right now. It's not even a debate. Sorry if that makes you upset.

Neal 10mo ago

I don’t disagree: ”Monero is superior for private transacting right now.”

that’s a fact.

but again, that proves the point: mistaking accident for essence

Monero trades risk of privacy concerns for risk of centralization.

it’s an admission of not understanding the problem satoshi was solving for.

Trust is the problem, and he solved it with decentralization, thats why it a contradiction of first principles to make the trade

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

At what point is something sufficiently decentralized? What is the magic number?

13,000 nodes distrubuted across the planet sounds just as practically unstoppable to me as 22,000. Not even one order of magnitude difference despite Monero having a much smaller userbase.

https://bitnodes.io/

https://monero.fail/map

Neal 10mo ago

principles not particulars.

essence not accidents.

“magic number” thinking is the latter

maybe it is sufficient for today, but u have to trust it wil be sufficient tomorrow, and the next, and the next.

when trust is not necessary, asking for trust is the first symptom of deceit

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

Maybe 22,000 is not sufficient for tomorrow either.

The same way that the magic decentralization number for block size is 4MB and also just happens to be what Bitcoin is at this moment in time. What a coincidence.

In principle Bitcoin should have 1 byte blocks. Maximum decentralization. Anything more is centralized. Principles.

Neal 10mo ago

🤣 I know principled thinking is hard.

principles drive the priorities

u strawman cause there is not wiggling out of the incoherence of making privacy prime.

a block needs a size, no shit.

what principle is prime in the decision? that’s the question, and if our answer reintroduces trust into the equation, it demonstrates an inability to recognize thr problem

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

You keep repeating the word "principles" as if repeating it enough times will make what you're saying principled.

Earlier you said: "Monero trades risk of privacy concerns for risk of centralization...Trust is the problem, and he solved it with decentralization, thats why it a contradiction of first principles to make the trade"

Your principle is decentralization.

Bigger blocks = centralized

Smaller blocks = decentralized

True or not? Instead of speaking in fuzzy language speak plainly.

Why are 1 byte blocks not more decentralized? Or will you dance around that like my magic number question?

Neal 10mo ago

it’s not my principle.

it’s objectively the key that unlocks the trust issue.

a 1 bit block is more centralized, but you miss the point

the chain would cease its monetary function.

decentralization being primary doesn’t mean only.

seems like you are either being purposfully obtuse to pretend you don’t understand design principles to troll, or you checked your rationality at the door snd this isn’t rational discourse nor will will ever be.

either way, ur a waste of my time.

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

People who are rational and principled don't have to keep repeating how "princpled" or "rational" their ideas are. They actually demonstrate it or argue it out.

It's like someone who keeps proclaiming how humble they are. It's pretentious.

>"a 1 bit block is more centralized, but you miss the point

the chain would cease its monetary function."

Exactly. Thanks for agreeing. Maximum tunnel-visioning on one thing at the cost of everything else is short-sighted.

Now all you have left to do is apply that to privacy and you'll be consistent.

Neal 10mo ago

have fun with your simulacrum

not stepping in your gnostic circle

classic gamma mid-wit

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

You type like a schizo. See ya.

Neal 10mo ago

privacy is important, but we don’t get very far when we put the cart before the horse

Neal 10mo ago

in a sentence: cash presupposes money

Satoshi knew this. That’s one of the things in the “if you don’t get it, he doesn’t have time to explain it” bucket

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

Satoshi designed the entire concept of Monero a few months before disappearing.

In their own words "If a solution was found, a much better, easier, more convenient implementation of Bticoin would be possible."

Neal 10mo ago

yeah and if we could have privacy without the bloat, i wouldn’t oppose it, but that privacy comes with a cost currently, it risks decentralization

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

Litecoin already did all the work for Bitcoin with MWEB.

Vastly better privacy and more scalable/less bloat than even Bitcoin.

Marc 10mo ago

Paper USD has pretty good privacy, but is not a good store of value. There's not much demand for an electronic version of this electronic type of cash since it's also not worth saving.

Why go throguh the trouble when it's easier to use the ATM?

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

Yes, cash is great locally, but you can't use paper USD to transact instantly with anyone on the planet.

And digital fiat is censorable, confiscateable, and not private.

Monero hes none of those problems (and addition to a long list of things it does better with cash)

>"There's not much demand for an electronic version of this electronic type of cash"

Even Bitcoiners don't believe this. That's why Monero is the most traded currency on Bisq. It also consistently outperforms, or comes close, to Bitcoin at any business that accepts both.

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzpk9xancv89h24rme53yhl6dh0hyhwce528eu5hrrfcsgvkg3vermqyvhwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnndehhyapwwdhkx6tpdshsz9mhwden5te0wfjkccte9ehx7um5wghxyctwvshsqgpejqkxpl70vkphh4rhje699h8325sjmupzq606g0xcy5l89mdtzym9uezp

Marc 10mo ago

The market does not value these feature enough to justify holding Monero. Therefore, it's only utility is a medium of exchange.

Cashu is slso private and instant. It is not soveregn, but there"s no pointbin being sovereign if your money loses value over the long run.

Saberhagen The Nameless 10mo ago

That was directed towards your question about paper cash "Why go through the trouble when it's easier to use the ATM?"

>"there"s no pointbin being sovereign if your money loses value over the long run."

Of course there is. Especially for large amounts of money. Why would you take on additional counterparty risk when you don't have to?

Cashu is custodial. It's not a replacement for Monero (non-custodial). Different use case, different advantages. Here it is from the creators own mouth:

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzq5xeflpdskqvdq4swxj59793uvdzqzc9pzatjk3nhmcg2h0js8trqytkummnw3ez66tyvgaz7tmrv93ksefdwfjkccteqy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uqzq9g8hqe6q2ccdtsp6vsemw2692znfeg898pu4a57ccudnqc2sk3smvkksw

Papa Figos 10mo ago

The NGU mentality, right here.

This is the new breed of bitcoiner. Who cares about privacy and mass-surveillance, as long as it goes up when denominated in fiat!

Azz 10mo ago

At a time when altcoins are melting down, monero is growing. This is a good sign for monero. The fight to kill it will keep going for some time, but as Bitcoin becomes more popular, monero will be harder to stop. I wouldn't bet on the Bitcoin NGU against monero for ever.

Skipper 10mo ago

LN does not fix L1 privacy, where did you heard that?

L1 is transparent by design, it's the only way to truly be sure only 21M bitcoins will ever exist.

Hanshan 10mo ago

okaaay

"LN would mitigate the complete lack of L1 privacy"

satisfied?

also

the argument that complete transparency is a requirement only means

integrity can't exist without total surveillance.

not a good hill to die on.

Skipper 10mo ago

Bitcoin L1 gives integrity; L2 and L3 gives privacy and scalability.

Monero tries to do everything on the base layer and in the process—has no integrity(because you can't be sure how many coins truly exist), has worse scalability and unlimited total supply. It's just like fiat but on digital rails.

Hanshan 10mo ago

yawn

it's obviously NOT just like fiat

because it has predetermined stable monetary policy

and we know exactly how many coins exist.

but you're improving 🔥

Skipper 10mo ago

Nah, you don't.

You guys are hardforking like every year—the risk of undetected inflation bugs, major exploits and even changes to its monetary policy down the line is simply too high.

Monero is not something you can hodl and forget for 10 years, it's not transparent and it changes too much, too quickly, too agressively. The risks are to high. It's not 'good money', it's fiat on digital rails but with private transactions.

Hanshan 10mo ago

theres certainly a reasonable argument to be made for premature ossification,

too bad you're not making it.

there is no credible concern about a change in monetary policy,

therefore its not "fiat on digital rails"

if you want to argue "hardforks bad" and a protocol has to be carved in stone after some arbitrary length of time,

well these are opinions people can have.

theyre just ignorant opinions.

Bitcoin is also software, and software needs updates.

I'll remind you Bitcoin needs a hard fork still as well.

and it's generally acknowledged amongst devs that at some point the blocksize needs another increase (in some form anyway).

its not as if the only risks are from changes,

there are also risks that come from just doing nothing.

S!ayer 10mo ago

How many layers do you need?

Skipper 10mo ago

How many hardforks on monero do you need?

Papa Figos 10mo ago

We can then extend this helpful analogy by realizing that lingua francas change over time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lingua_francas

.. in keeping with your excellent logic, it would then be logical to say that just as any one lingua franca's dominance faded over time, as English is sure to fade in time as well so will Bitcoin as the dominant cryptocurrency.

Telluride 10mo ago

Not in my or your lifetime so pretty irrelevant imo but yeah

Papa Figos 10mo ago

That is, of course, what they all thought, until gradually then suddenly, it was not so anymore.

You've also missed my deeper point, which is that your analogy sucks, as you're comparing apples to oranges.

That is clear in this case as well, since once thing is human languages, another is technology, which changes at an insane rate and evolves exponentially.

What takes 200 years in the domain of changing customs in usage of human language, might take 10 years in the domain of technology.

Telluride 10mo ago

Let me know when suddenly happens and I’ll apologize to every shitcoiner ever.

Until then, im bored of this.

HFSP (for now)

🍻👊🏻🧡

Papa Figos 10mo ago

lol dude, you're an ignorant idiot, just like all the other maxipads.

I've been in Bitcoin since well before the Silk Road days, chances are I know a lot more about it than you, and chances are I'm not HFSP.

Just so you know, many of the Bitcoiners from back when are also into Monero. Unlike your myopic NGU philosophy, we wanted true cypherpunk digital cash, and it takes an intelligent person about 10 minutes to realize Bitcoin as it has existed since its inception is not it.

It is, however, good for increasing one's purchasing power. But if you think that's sufficient, you're a fool.

onthephone 10mo ago

You are only number go up. It's a shame, because each change made to Bitcoin reduces the only leg it has to stand on, namely "the original".

BrianFitzwater 10mo ago

“Esperanto was an international language invented at the turn of the century to cut down on the labor of learning foreign tongues. “. But, you still had to learn it, a foreign tongue.

Tara 10mo ago

I think the analogy works. fixing something that isn't broken.

🌻

Papa Figos 10mo ago

Do you actually use Bitcoin non-custodially?

Not as a NGU inert digital rock, but as peer-to-peer digital cash as the whitepaper says.

Tara 10mo ago

Nope.

I hodl BTC and spend fiat.

When I want privacy, I use fiat just like most everyone else.

If I ever want to spend my BTC, I will sacrifice privacy just like I do when I use a credit card.

Sure I'm open to an alternative when the alternative is ~16 years old and has had a 3x return for 13 or the 16 years its been around.

🌻

William ₿ Travis 10mo ago

XMR people are inherently pessimistic. they assume the KYC regime will continue. they are like goldbugs where their solution is only needed if govt power grows or the power goes off.

Meanwhile, Bitcoin is a positive force and reduces govt power by making transactions uncensorable. And as fiat fails, govts have fewer resources to enforce control. There is where KYC dies.

If the XMR folks want to fight with privacy coin more power to them, but they will be nowhere when fiat/KYC dies and their coin has no use case.

nostr:note1k7q0rm5mxpdek058ct66aecynj6aatc9q0fkhfvpdklp9xd95rpqegqtzv

Tara 10mo ago

never heard of it. (Esperanto or monero lol)

🌻

Aprendiz 10mo ago

Esperanto can be a good language to learn.

Zaikaboy 10mo ago

Esperanto failed for exactly what you said but it is still about, tutoring us about shitcoin!!! Is method really going to be around in 100 years?!

Telluride 10mo ago

Exactly my point. No it won’t because there is no 2nd best.

🧡👊🏻🍻

Joram 10mo ago

Esperanto is still around, estimated to have between 100,000 to 2 million speakers worldwide, mostly alt-coiners 🤣

Subema 10mo ago

Guilty 😅

CitizenPleb 10mo ago

I always think of how Gene Roddenberry originally wanted Star Trek to be in Esperanto. Didn’t work there either.

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