HORRIBLE ADVICE.
LEARN HOW TO HOLD BITCOIN SECURELY YOURSELF.
I RECOMMEND BITKEY FOR NON TECHNICAL USERS. COLDCARD FOR EVERYONE ELSE.
SELF CUSTODY IS EASIER THAN DRIVING A CAR OR RAISING A KID.
NO EXCUSES. FIGURE IT OUT OR REGRET IT LATER.
Discussion
I'll just add I think @seedsigner > than Cold Card.
As someone who in my early days bought Ledger, I don’t think I could trust any organisation that sells the whole thing now.
Now that is a hot take...
Seedsigner is the best option I’ve had 4 coldcard qs and all have quit working within days.
Yes and if you can’t afford a Bitkey or Coldcard, then a hot wallet with Nunchuk is better than leaving your sats with a custodian.
Oh no. I recently migrated to River. This take concerns me
Buy this
https://store.coinkite.com/store/bundle-q1-xor
Check the bag. Check the numbers. Read the docs. Create entropy. Write down the 24 seed words. PGP the software.
Create a 12 word passphrase using words from the BIP39 list. Tripple check the spelling. It's easier if you use the pre-spelled list on the Q.
Use a dry erase marker to mark the spots you need to punch on your seed plates.
Double check them. If you made a miatake, wipe it with a damp paper towel and fix it.
When your sure it's right, punch the letters...But first...Send a small transaction. Erase your key from the cold card. Test your seed phrase recovery. Test your passphrase. Reconstruct it from your seed plates. If you see your sats, congrats. If not, kiss that small transaction goodbye and start over.
Store your key and passphrase in seperate locations. Create lamintated backup(food saver bags also work), but store them somewhere far away from you.
Keep learning. Assume your stack will be worth 10X more on 4 years and 100X more in 8.
This is not financial advice. It is cybersecurity advice. If you fuck up, no one can help you so stay humble and stack knowledge.
I appreciate the support in this guys. Been self-custodying since 2017 with all kinds of wallets. I just don’t like such a bad take from a founder I do business with. I like just about everything else I have heard from Alex though.
You are 100% right……but man do people act like self custody is free climbing El Capitan…..
He sounds like he has no idea what he is talking about
The problem with Bitkey is that you can’t load a seed yourself. It’s the “trust me bro” model of seed generation.
Everyone shat on card with the private key pre-inscribed years ago (Lee something made it?) but people seem to be just fine with the same situation as long as it’s a hexagonal stone thingy.
BITKEY IS NOT PERFECT BUT IT IS A GREAT TRADEOFF MODEL FOR NON TECHNICAL USERS. INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO FUCK IT UP.
SAYING BITKEY AND BALLET ARE THE SAME IS RETARDED.
> SAYING BITKEY AND BALLET ARE THE SAME IS RETARDED.
This is not an argument. In what significant/technical way are they different?
BALLET:
- KEY GENERATED IN FACTORY
- SINGLE FIXED ADDRESS
- NO BACKUP
- MISLEADING MARKETING MATERIALS SAYING IT WAS MORE SECURE THAN ALTERNATIVES
BITKEY:
- KEYS GENERATED BY USER USING ENTROPY FROM HARDWARE AND APP
- HD WALLET: FRESH ADDRESSES FOR EVERY RECEIVE
- UNIQUE USER FRIENDLY BACKUP PROCESS LEVERAGING THEIR 2 OF 3 MULTISIG SETUP SO IT IS PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR USERS TO LOSE COIN DUE TO MISTAKES
- DELIBERATE AND HONEST MARKETING OF TRADEOFF BALANCE
Thank you for taking the time to respond 🙏
> - KEYS GENERATED BY USER USING ENTROPY FROM HARDWARE AND APP
This is unverifiable. Even if the code is open source (is it?) how do you know the device you hold is doing what it says it does? How can you verify?
(Note that every hardware wallet has this problem. The only way to validate the HWW’s process is to roll a seed yourself, then load it on multiple vendors’ devices to confirm they all yield the same XPUB and addresses.)
Whether the seed was printed at the factory, or printed by a closed source process, one cannot verify that it was done securely and that nobody else has the key.
IF you were going to use multiple of these “trust me” seeds together in a multisig quorum, then you could be reasonably sure you won’t get rugged. It’s unlikely they’re all vulnerable at the same time, exploitable by the same attacker.
Regarding backups: if you can’t extract/load the seed onto the device, then you can’t back it up. Making a copy of the Ballet private key and using Bitkey’s multisig backup seem to me to offer equivalent ways to recover the wallet following loss/destruction of the device.
Your other points are valid, particularly the point about address reuse.
BITKEY SOURCE AND DOCUMENTATION CAN BE FOUND HERE:
Nice!
It’s still not possible to verify that that code is what’s running on your device. Better than nothing.
I have the same critique of all firmware-pre-loaded devices (ColdCard, Trezor, etc.). Self-built SeedSigner is better in this regard.
What would be his reason for not self custody? It makes no sense to trust someone else with your future!
SOMEONE LOST MONEY USING A LEDGER.
ENTERED PIN WRONG AND LOST SEED.
THE CONCLUSION SHOULD BE THAT LEDGER IS BAD FOR MOST PEOPLE. NOT SELF CUSTODY.
ledger is brutally bad, completely optimized for shitcoins at the expense of being a real HWW
It's crazy. Someone one time lost their dad's 1865 gold coins too, that doesn't mean that millions of people can't safely keep gold coins in their safe. People need far more credit than they are given.
Him being stupid justifies making everyone going the same stupid route he goes? These ppl... I don't understand them.
Don't trust, verify!
At a base level, HW seed signers could be considered a point of failure.
Same happens on all hardware wallets. The conclusion is to have secure backups in metal.
- LEDGER UX IS COMPLETE SHIT.
- DEVICE AUTO WIPES AFTER THREE WRONG PINS AND YOU CANT TURN THAT OFF.
- YOU CANNOT VIEW SEED WORDS AFTER FIRST SETUP. IF YOU ARE NOT SURE YOU SAVED THEM CORRECTLY OR IF YOU LOST YOUR BACKUP YOU HAVE TO WIPE DEVICE AND CREATE A NEW SEED.
YES. SECURING SEED PHRASES IS ESSENTIAL FOR MOST HARDWARE WALLETS (NOT BITKEY) BUT LEDGER PARTICULARLY SUCKS.
I thought this so I got a Jade. Thing glitched hard and I couldn’t open it. Went to my computer and entered a 6 digit pin into the desktop software. Proceeded to drain my entire wallet without ever connecting or unlocking the hardware device. My take away, Jade is worse
never count on a device to hold your keys. you need a physical copy somewhere. paper, metal, whatever. electronics fail sometimes unexpectedly.
nostr:npub17tyke9lkgxd98ruyeul6wt3pj3s9uxzgp9hxu5tsenjmweue6sqq4y3mgl
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/blue0517-4dfc85cb0200460ab717b101ac07888f.jpg)
Cold card 💯
Agree and said the same on Twitter as a reply yesterday.
SeedSigner for true sovereignty🤙🏼
LIKE YOU SAY, THERE ARE SOLUTIONS FOR NON TECHNICAL USERS BUT WE STILL NEED MORE!
What are your thoughts on the new Foundation Passport Prime rollout. A non bitcoiner, IT friend called it a “kluge”. I’m not so sure.
I hear this among the self proclaimed “cryptoexperts” to diversify your holdings on different exchanges 🤦🏻🤣 dumb fucks
SELF SOVEREIGNTY!
CC til I D
is this screenshot real or is he mocking Mashinsky?
xcancel looks interesting 👌
To play devil's advocate, he did say "100%". I think it's reasonable to have a checking account balance split across a few transparent custodians, with the understanding that you're trading convenience for security/rug risk with working capital.
Savings should always be self-custodied!
I think this was in response to a guy on Twitter who lost all his bitcoin by bricking his ledger and misplacing the backup.
https://x.com/chaseyodream247/status/1870202036060598680?s=46&t=IdMcOoqFJGpS8bFzQOZK2g
Man nostr:npub1s0vtkgej33n7ec4d7ycxmwt78up8hpfa30d0yfksrshq7t82mchqynpq6j doesn’t get enough love as being one of the Gold Standards.
HWW is solid and air gapped like Aang
But store that robust seedphrase in the cloud?!?!? 🤦♂️
I don't understand why 99% of people can keep and never lose their gun safe code, their car keys, their bank account number, their social security and/or tax id number, but yet they aren't able to keep a piece of paper or hardware wallet or steel plate with some words on it?
I bought #bitkey on launch ...but sofar trusted only 100 dollar to .. still stuck in #coinbase and #cashApp (:-
keep saying this ..I will sure pass the hurdle with little nudge or push :-)
CONSIDER THIS THE PUSH.
DO IT.
Here, earlier I wrote an article on it
nostr:npub1qny3tkh0acurzla8x3zy4nhrjz5zd8l9sy9jys09umwng00manysew95gx I consider myself a “non technical user” and have a coldcard. Watched a BTC sessions video and sent $5 back and forth from Strike to figure it out. You got this.
PEOPLE USED TO MANAGE ENTIRE ADDRESS BOOKS OF NUMBERS. YOU CAN SECURELY STORE 24.
💯… only lazy and fearful people who need the world bubble-wrapped think like this
Unfortunately, that accounts for about 90% of the population! I think early adopters (anybody who has bought BTC and held at any time in the last 15 years) forget how contrarian we are. The best we can hope for is that most noobies who buy BTC will progress from initially leaving their BTC on an exchange, to moving most of it to hot wallet self custody. Some will eventually get to cold storage, but whether we like it or not, that will be a bridge too far for more people than you think.
Needed this. Currently figuring out how to get my dad off of ledger. Will look into Bitkey
If you can’t enter your own seed, then it’s “trust me bro” security, same as custodial. #Bitcoin #meme 
Truth.
Bitkey model with a screen would be great
Hardly the same. BitKey is multi signature but easy to use. Good luck doing multisig manually with a cold card. God forbid a non technical person to do so
Wise words 🫡
Self custody Bitcoin demands personal responsibility. Be responsible for your own future. 🫡
You nailed it with your reply! I agree with you Fren 😊 and happy Sunday!
do you think it would be more pallatible with reactive security via on-chain vaults?
bitcoin is the first asset you can truly own. If you cannot self-custody it, what’s the point? It’s 2024 - this is no longer an unpopular opinion, it is a retarded one.
No excuses.
nostr:note1fekdfprgh79qd5nqfzdm6vcew6swd4xxx6n4qju9pvd62nfhezasrtn9ez
Unfortunately, many noobs will follow the advice of bitcoin only exchange founder...
technically speaking, NOBODY self-custodies 100% of their stash.
what, your Primal wallet, Alby, Strike/River balance is self-custodied??
yeah, right.
Actually I do. Technically speaking. I hold my own keys. On metal. Have hand drawn QR codes that can be used with my Seedsigner and/or Jade. And run a BTC/LN node which I zap from.
I do use a coinos address here for reviving zaps but move them off to my node immediately upon receipt. And I don't get many at all...
So I suppose you could call the 21 odd sats in that wallet at any time custodial... but I'm not going to sweat that.
But I also think the technical friction for doing all this is not something all users can overcome. And sometimes counterparty risk is the better trade off with a portion of one's stack can be better than self risk.
Have you looked at how people drive and raise their children lately?
I hate to be the one to say this, but most people aren't fit for self-custody.
😂 some truth there
The majority of people who Ive been in a car with drove like they didn't care if I died with them... so yes lol
It's not binary. It's a a gradient. You don't need the same self control to self custody 1000 sats as you need to to self custody a million sats.
Can everyone be trusted to keep 1 BTC safe for a decade? Probably not.
But you can probably trust most 10 year olds to keep 1000 sats safe for a month and most adults to keep 100k sats safe for a year.
Literate adults*
It's not about the amount of sats. It's about the relative importance of that amount to your life. For some, 100k sats is life-changing money, for others it's more like 10 BTC. In any case, people will want to hold more than just lunch money in bitcoin. So your argument is moot.
Gradual responsability for different amounts is moot?
Remind me how it works with dollars and euros...
It's not gradual. That's why.
Bitcoin appreciates much faster than people update their security concepts. Plus, once it clicks with bitcoin, you ape in.
Also, like I said, the amount isn't the relevant factor. It's the relative value to your life, and that's affected by a lot of things.
It's suddenly then suddenly.
In general, though, your right. Of course, small amounts require different precautions than larger amounts.
I agree 100%
True!
nostr:note1fekdfprgh79qd5nqfzdm6vcew6swd4xxx6n4qju9pvd62nfhezasrtn9ez
As if custodians are short of Bitcoin AUM, it's in the millions of BTC, how is that not seen as a bigger problem than the mythical granma-fication of self custody UX
my coldcard is getting here tomorrow😃 switching from ledger nano s
WHAT'S SO HARD ABOUT SAVING 12 OR 24 WORDS?
IF YOU CAN MANAGE MULTIPLE PASSWORDS FOR MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS, YOU CAN LEARN TO SAVE WORDS FOR YOUR WEALTH.
The problem isn't the words. Its creating and sticking to a maintenance plan.
My point is that we have many people who know how to do this with passwords (password managers, 2FA authentication apps, etc.)
People can learn a similar method for their keys, they just refuse to do so.
What is there to maintain about 12 words in a safe?
Are they still there? Do they backup the wallet you remember they are for? Does anyone else have access to the safe? Are they a single point of failure or do you use a passphrase/multisig/another tool? When was the last time you attempted signing a txn? Is the safe at the same location as your signer?
Even more tinfoil hat:
What are the chances the safe was replaced with a replica? Where were you when you generated the seed, were there any cameras around? Was the tool used ever determined to be low entropy?
So true. I like that the Cold Card Q has notes and passwords now. I can review my notes when I start to doubt my setup, but I can also erase everything with a few presses of the buttons.
apparently for a lot of people saving those words is too hard. they need their mom to keep track of their stuff
agreed
Way easier than driving a car. Why is everyone such a goddamn pussy when it comes to taking personal responsibility for anything?
Got grown ass adults afraid to hold their own wealth it's disgusting and the greatest trick ever played on humanity 
I use Bitkey for my smaller and newer coins then coldcard for my main then I transfer every once in a while.
Nice lil set up does bitkey have limits like cash app?
Limits on what?
Your sending and receiving of funds 999.99 per week in usd on cash app is there a limit on the bitkey or its just a signing device ? What about the wallet the coin is in?? Just need to educate myself on it I'm just really surprised 😮
1000% agree! This is what I tell people too. BitKey and Coldcard are the best at what they do. BitKey is great for non technical people and new Bitcoiners, while Coldcard fills in some gaps for those that need or want a bit more flexibility and control.
lol Anon, some people shouldn’t be driving or even raising a kid🤣
So bitkey for my son. Sounds good, thank you.
I would say no excuses for most people in any generation below Gen X. I don't think Boomers can learn to self custody safely lol.
How does Alex not see the optics of what he’s saying here. Come on. Completely agree, setup your family with a nostr:npub1tcnvkw8fu29zspw54tuhfrk0tkzn6qdupmc45slt4zmase3dzqask6ctu0
I don't think this is bad advice.
Keep in mind we are coming from a perspective of people who literally thinks about BTC security all day every day. Your average person doesn't do this and often can't even keep their Twitter account secure. The difference is now they lose their life savings instead of somebody tweeting from their account.
BITKEY IS PERFECT FOR THE PERSON YOU JUST DESCRIBED.
Bitkey has no screen like nostr:nprofile1qqs9500z3l7sn46sdnls5fnjm0d3lqmrq7707qshes2y7j8pnm4rllcppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0u5teza.
Why should I trust my computer? What am I missing?
You are likely comfortable handling private key material directly (safeguarding seed phrases), but I suspect most of your friends and family lack the time or interest to properly research and study how to do this. So for them Bitkey is a safer solution than exchanges or self custody wallets with footguns.
Bitkey is nice. Hope I can review it soon.
Couldn’t agree more. Having true property rights requires responsibility. Bitkeys are great products for people to start learning too.
Self custody is not easier because it’s virtually impossible to misplace a child or car
Lol idk about that as history shows there are those people...just we got tricked into letting others hold our own value once u understand the power behind holding it's the same as buying gold i would always be told buy the physical same with #btc pull it into ur hands :) cold storage i tell older people is basically a safe u put ur bitcoin in the safe same as gold in ur safe :)
Is someone with a family history of dementia supposed to hold their own keys? Seems like a bad idea. I’m using an edge case to prove a point but I think the % of people that should hold their own keys in a single sig with no counterparty redundancy is less than 1% of the world.
That is a good point and 1% I can agree with that
Does anyone else remember back when Bitcoin was an open source movement?
I recommend Trezor safe 5 (or safe 3 as an “economic” option). 100% satisfaction and they will soon have their own security chip boosting their security level to the max
Damn Bitkey huh surprised with that one is it that secure or u going based off morals I'm curious it's just never came up in convos only the release..appreciate the insight big dawg!
It’s super secure, open source and 2 of 3 multi-sig. Definitely worth checking out.
Just alot of red flags for me I haven't educated myself on the hardware so I have questions guess I'll look anyone got any sources I can check out
This is a good place to start. Their blog regarding building the product open source - https://bitkey.build/building-in-the-open/
Anyone should be able to learn. To me, the key is to start small enough that it doesn't even make sense to get a hardware wallet at first. Just play around with like $20-$100 worth self-custodied on a phone app. Practice sending corn to yourself and/or back and forth with a friend. Practice wiping the app from your phone then recovering everything with your seed phrase. If you fuck up, you did it before you even had a devastating amount to lose. None of this is all that difficult. Once you feel comfortable, you will have developed a pretty good tool-set for now knowing when it makes sense to switch to a hardware wallet - or maybe you will conclude that 3rd-party custody is what would work best for you... the point is to put yourself in a position to make an educated decision regarding your personal situation rather than just blindly going with someone else's recommendation. If you're not willing to put forth even this minimal effort, you should probably just stick to ETFs if you want any exposure to Bitcoin at all.
or buy a Tangem wallet, problem solved =)
I like bitbox. Don't hear it talked about much but it's basically what you wish a ledger was.
I use it, too. And I am very happy with it. Its quite common in Germany I think. (at least its talkes about in podcasts and such.)
yeah seems more popular in europe
fuck off scammet
How often do you think we’ll need to change wallets going forward? With break ins or wallet companies going out of business. What is the best set it and forget it custody long term?
nostr:npub1jg552aulj07skd6e7y2hu0vl5g8nl5jvfw8jhn6jpjk0vjd0waksvl6n8n Jade/Green combination. You’re set for life.
I use a bitkey for my mum but always worry over the upper limit that can be 'secured.' What's the upper limit, nostr:npub1qny3tkh0acurzla8x3zy4nhrjz5zd8l9sy9jys09umwng00manysew95gx et al or there isn't one as long as the tradeoffs are accepted.
I'm not too concerned about it not screen having a screen as we do regular rather large lump sum buys.
He knows it’s an unpopular opinion because why? BECAUSE IT’S THE WRONG OPINION! So wrong that I resorted to all caps. Shocking for me.
I’ve gotten 10 of my friends into bitcoin and I made sure they all have self custody. But unfortunately they are unwilling to learn anything and I constantly have to hold their hand. At the end of the day most people love the nerfed world we live in and only care that the beer is cold. I won’t give up trying to educate people but I can’t make them take responsibility
You’re better off buying the bitcoin back from them. They obviously don’t seem ready and it sounds like it would be kept better by you.
Maybe in the future if they come to the senses or if shit hits the fan you fan be in a position to help.
It’s been 5 years now 😂 I can’t afford to buy it back.
A little surprised to see Alex say this, but I value his perspective on it.
Nope - excellent advice *for some people* and *some circumstances*
Many are comfortable and confident managing all their bitcoins 🙂 but some people - even with excellent tuition/guidance - are definitely not
Think of some of the absolute numpties you dealt with in your fiat-life; think of our old sparring partner Peter Schiff .. the bloke can’t even manage a password
Full self custody is the ideal .. some people aren’t up to it .. #reality
3rd party liability iz getting weak/* imho
Love your idealism, Odell. The reality is that most people don’t want to think; they just crave dopamine hits. Everything else feels like a burden they’d rather avoid. Unfortunately, bringing these NPCs on board is a necessary step to free those of us who value freedom. Custodial solutions are a part of the process. Saylor is part of the process, Tether, and even money laundering, are all necessary steps to free this restricted group in the new cycle of adoption.
What’s your thoughts on Trezor for self custody ?
THE NEW ONE IS FINE. I PREFER COLDCARD.
With Odell on that and considering I have my new Q, recommend Schiff Gold option! It’s just a nice little reminder
Trezor Safe 3 or Trezor Safe 5 are great. If the money doesn’t matter go 5. But if the money really doesn’t matter go Foundation Passport. It’s fantastic.
If people aren’t comfortable with self custody another good option is collaborative custody like unchained. They have easy to use concierge service too. I’m curious what proportion of nostr:npub1xkere5pd94672h8w8r77uf4ustcazhfujkqgqzcykrdzakm4zl4qeud0en customers do self custody vs keep on exchange? nostr:npub139nl9yxvwayl60fr97m3zrq9md6x5v0uup344mkyuyg6mzlusyxs4zkwf4