For many people entering the scene, Bitcoin is primarily a currency, not a store of value.
Hearing rich people opine about how you should never spend Bitcoin, just confirms the suspicion everyone has that Bitcoiners are greedy sociopaths.
How to lose friends and alienate people, but make it digital money.
send me some sats to spedn 😢 😢 😢 😢 😢
Anyone who says dont spedn bitcoin, doesnt understand bitcoin itself as a medium of value transfer. . but that's just me.
nostr:note1249ckpa3lnl8pl256d8rfygj432ex6cs8xaqvpsqdhda2su6lzas35lavc
Saying you should save a currency equals you’re a greedy sociopath? 😂
That’s a bit of a jump
No, saying everyone should save a currency and never spend it means you're a greedy sociopath.
I always thought the meme was “never selling” ie never exchanging it for fiat/bitcoin is the currency. Also “spend & replace” is another popular one
People keep sliming all over me, mocking me for spending Bitcoin. They're a plague.
In that case, I would stop telling those people. They can’t criticize what they don’t know/see
The whole goal is a Bitcoin standard, where the only money used is Bitcoin. That doesn't work, if nobody ever spends Bitcoin and there are no payment rails.
Idiots. Undermining one of the things giving their store of value its rising value.
That is why nobody will remember their name.
Spend and replace makes the price go higher than just hodling. It’s an easy concept to understand 🤷🏾♂️
Well, obviously, as people would be inclined to convert more of their income into Bitcoin or earn salaries in Bitcoin, if spending Bitcoin as a currency is actively encouraged and easy to do, which would increase Bitcoin's utility.
Everyone is spending money, after all, it is only the question of WHICH MONEY?
money is not only about spending tho
gresham's law shows that the shittiest money option tends to get spent while all the others get hodled - or in other words, until fiat dies bitcoin will be the increasingly preferred form of savings
lightning makes spending bitcoin a lot easier but it takes time for the payment mesh to build up to the level we see with SEPA, SWIFT, Visa Mastercard et al, and it requires merchant adoption as well
The goal is to eventually turn it around:
Put your net-income (after bill autopay) all into Bitcoin and spend it using Lightning or similar. But don't spend all of it, so that you roll over a growing amount from month to month. I'm increasingly doing this and now I'm stacking twice as fast, as before.
Once you do this, you realize that you were de facto "fiat hodling", as you were keeping some as spending money. Once Bitcoin becomes spending money, you can move everything over and your savings will also grow faster because you won't have to deal with inflation on your spending money.
Just leave the shittier money behind. Why keep hodling Reichsmark? Just dump it all into Franc and live off the Franc standard and demand Franc as payment.
basically... the euro is now weimar marks pretty much, let's face it, the whole fiat system is hot air and nonsense and really obviously a pure political bludgeon
it's not just a platitude to opt out, it's something you can always do, and before bitcoin there was other options, and yes they were trying to close all the exits but they can't actually enforce it because they don't have the ability to make us pay what it would cost to catch even 1% of us refusing to play
Focus here. Earn, Spedn, Earn, Spedn. Rinse Repeat. nobody is replacing anything. lol
I am. I spend and replace and earn and spend and replace and earn and spend. If I zap you, it's mostly with money I converted out of fiat.
But that's money I would have otherwise left in fiat, to spend as fiat.
Replace the sats I spent with more bitcoin I purchased with fiat. And buying bitcoin at regular intervals (with fiat)
only good for fiat miners. Us volunteers who only earn in bitcoin cannot relate to fiat miners who are lucky enough to be employed and have regular salaries.
I have a fiat job. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Or with only earning bitcoin. It’s not an us vs them scenario
its great to have a job. i dunno why employees are not pushing to be paid in btc. . . thats the real adoption everybody is scared to deal with. mean while, lets fund another conference though and discuss adoption in Guatemala
The job market is brutal these days. I wouldn’t complain about getting paid in fiat: I can convert what I need to sats.
Isn’t adoption in Guatemala a good thing?
Somebody should start complaining, if it doesnt get them fired. Adoption is great where profiteers take the largest pie back to their liquidity channels.
I agree with you if it’s not an issue for the job. I think most employers are not there yet
and who's fault is that when those employed are dollar cost averaging 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Taxes, mostly, I assume.
fear mostly
people have been tricked into believing the government and banks have any right to surveilling us because of how banks and income tax dovetailed together to create the beginning of the totalitarian state
if you are working remotely, you are not in the same jurisdiction as the employer, what are they gonna do? really, they haven't got shit and that's what they don't want you to know
if everyone refused at the same time they'd be screwed because it would cost more to chase us than they could ever get out of us
all they would prove to everyone is what we have been saying all along:
taxation is theft
Agreed but one maxi vs hundreds pr thousands of precoiners working at the same employer. Good luck getting everyone to refuse at the same time. Most will choose security over freedom anyday
and none will move to the other group without some of us putting our necks on the chopping block
also, at such a large company they can MORE EASILY afford to have more than one payment route, because of how much they save on most of the others
don't listen to those pencilnecks in accounting, they just don't like to work, because their work is mean and stingy, make them be nice, insist, and if not, DCA and rub the benefits in their noses
Agreed. I go the DCA route
I think this is going to come primarily from the contracting and self-employed market, as they tend to have more leverage to negotiate contract specifics.
But, once a company gets used to paying one person that way, and sets everything up, the chances of a second person getting the same deal are higher.
It's good for you, too, as otherwise we'd have no Bitcoin to spend.
Having Bitcoin means you produced real world value for someone else
Spending Bitcoin means that you’re taking resources back from the real world in exchange for the Bitcoin you previously saved
Which is greedy to you?
It's both. It's the best money for both.
Maybe, but the space is crawling with the sort of people nobody IRL would want around. Money is not everything.
You can't eat money. They will have to spend it someday or another.
They're saving it until it stops rising rapidly in purchasing power, which means they will take it to their grave.
I suspect that is already common enough. The Bitcoin simply never moves out of that wallet and is retired.
It's not. It's a lousy currency compared to the current fiat payment rails available is most countries. At most, it can still be a replacement for cash when it is eventually banned.
As a store of wealth, however, nothing comes close to it.
And no, you don't need to spend it, ever, just like you don't usually need to sell your house to buy groceries unless you fucked up really badly. If you're doing things right, you will be able to borrow against it and invest in other assets that bring cash flow to pay back the loan and keep your bitcoin intact,
Disagree man. Real estate isn't liquid. Bitcoin is. You don't get it yet, imo. At present, you should be stacking as we find the top of the s curve, but you should absolutely spend/replace whenever you have the chance. Bitcoin just sitting in your wallet doing nothing is only going to make global adoption and circular economies take longer.
Of course it's doing something. Something really important, at that.
It's causing the scarcity that makes bitcoin valuable. BTC being liquid doesn't mean it's not a good store of wealth.
On the contrary, it's one of the ways it's superior to real estate or gold.
BTC is a weapon 🤫
There have been bizarrely wealthy people, before, and they all died, same as the poor people.
I think it's both, but I can't stand the anti-payment propoganda.
Most people arriving now are taking in smaller satoshi amounts, so the SoV aspect will not be readily apparently, to them. It'll simply accumulate over time, like unspent money in a checking account, and eventually a light will go on.
Agree. P2P electronic cash. Satoshi didn't stutter.
I do both. I have my cold wallet for savings and hot / lightning wallets for spending.
What you said 🤙🏽
Some of you have a Beautiful Vision of the Future that is merely a replica of today, but with the Bitcoin rich in the place of the current fiat rich. (Not that those aren't mostly the same people.)
This is not the stable system you assume it to be.
it's gonna be flowing w milk and honey for everybody !?
theyre btc commies
They all want to be the next Soros or Rothschild.
i would gamder that anti spenders are not cashflow positive in their personal life / family unit. they need btc to be valuable that they will never need to work again cuz they cant earn IOUs.
Nah we run a profitable household, we just spend the weaker money like fiat currencies, ecash, monero from what we earn first and then don't spend (ie. save) the rest in the stronger money (you know the one..)
Garbage is a terrible costly money, but like any commodity it technically works. Nevertheless, I don't let it pile up in my home. I'm not an anti seller of homes though! We just dispose of other things first 😉
mom made my britches, dad made my hat, as for love and riches, who needs more than that
Saylor talking about prying his bitcoin out of his ‘cold dead hands’ doesn’t do much for the argument that wealth creation leads to further deployment of capital.
A lot of extremely wealthy people do seem to exhibit sociopathic tendencies, even when their staff say they’re really nice once you get to know them.
Sociopaths know how to be charming. 🤷♀️
They're too steeped in hysterical anticommunist rhetoric to know that the easiest way to separate a rich man from his money is not to steal the money, it's to kill or imprison the man.
Do not make the people poorer than you despise you, should be Lesson 101 in "How to be rich and not end up living like a trapped animal".
so i thought the idea is that with bitcoin, by not passing it along, you are giving a gift to all the network holders.
It's like you are giving a gift to everyone and not to charitable Foundations that can ultimately fund the arts and sciences and all the ~Wonderful~ things those can create...
i actually really like this aspect of Saylor. if he really means what he says "die with bitcoin" it is the idea that you don't need to influence the future of the world with your ideas. let the next generation start on the foundation where you left off with no appointed board or heir or ruling elite...
It means you are giving a gift to everyone who already has some, at the expense of future buyers, by reducing the supply and increasing scarcity. The bigger the amount of someone's hodlings, the more of a gift you give them.
This cements inequality.
the value of money held out of circulation is called "hoarding" by socialist elitist pigs and the importance of it in an economy is ignored
as you say, 'reserve assets' - what are these? they are a pile of money you didn't spend so when the time came you needed to, for example, such as in place of using insurance to repair damage, or to back up a loan on a somewhat risky enterprise
a monetary system without a proportion of it held off the market has no resilience in the case of disaster, nor any capacity to seize opportunities that require a large startup cost but low risk of failure
think about it if it was instead seed
should you plant every seed you save from this year's crop, or should you save some extra in reserve in case the next crop is thin and you barely even produce enough to plant the next year's crop, and just consider that this year may be one of those outliers, the 1% of cases that are extremely bad, and the next year is average or good, as can probably be prudently predicted
so, it's the same thing, money that is not being spent has a critical role in an economy, of enabling responses to sudden changes
no savings, no resilience
I didn't say "no savings", tho. I am saying it should not all be savings. Some of the money must circulate, for it to count as a currency.
and i would argue that if you can't save it, it's not a money because without that resilience when all the things break at once nobody has got any way to stop it degenerating into lawlessness with starving borderline personalities
I think Saylor is taking a page from Satoshi, who mined 1 million Bitcoin then just let it sit there in plain sight, contributing to the scarcity and, therefore, value for everyone.
i think that it's not really money if you can't store it, that's the feature of durability
Oh goodness, don't compare Saylor to a man who never personally profited from his sats.
Saylor is leveraging his Bitcoin to live like God in France.
he is, and i am also using bitcoin i'm not spending to live better than i would otherwise be in this current up-trending market, it has already enabled me to effectively discount a lot of my expenses and actually save
The comparison only counts if Saylor actually follows through and dies with his Bitcoin.
That is irrelevant, as he uses it as a reserve asset to get cheap credit and then lives on that.
Exactly.
saylor's whole gimmick orbits around his finally grasping the importance of a money with strict supply control
and like you say, he just then abuses that as collateral instead of actually doing anything substantial towards ending the use of wibbly wobbly currencies and the keynesian economic bullcrap he claims to oppose
i hate saylor for running a software company that doesn't actually write any important software
He sells the software to the government and big corporations. One hand washes the other.
yeah, i don't like him... i like his no second best line but that's it
my main first impression of him had to do with those strange marks on his face... seems like it's probably related to drug intake, but i'm not familiar with it... either that or it's a genetic disorder but you'd think that with such an obvious deformity if he wasn't a narcissist he'd be open about it
odd, I'll have to check out his face... I only understood Bitcoin after all of his metaphors. I I figured that his sharing his understanding on podcasts was volunteering his time and energy, and that was a gift.
well, i pretty much agree with him on most points... i think it's great that not only is the record impervious to cheap manipulations, the protocol itself is also impervious to cheap manipulations
these are obvious good properties of bitcoin, and how it serves to be a common that eliminates the tragedy part
Good grief. This thread has spun into lala land. We’re critiquing his face now? 🤡
His point about the software is that change = new risks so let’s just be very careful if we want it to last 1,000 years. Otherwise, we end up with a vulnerable pile of spaghetti code, like Ethereum. I agree with him.
Listening to him orange pilled me, like thousands of others and I’m richer in every sense of the word because of it. So is everyone on the network, even the Saylor haters. Listen to the Saylor Series on Breedlove’s “What is Money” pod, then see what you think. Or don’t, idc 😆.
lol, uh, the marks are weird, i'm not saying anything anyone hasn't thought
it wasn't what made me say anything about him in the first place, and tbh i just think that he is a little disingenuous, that's about it
but everyone notices the odd marks on his face
didn't stop me liking Seal, but what does bother me is people not saying "yeah, i got this thing, birthmark, disease, whatever" that bothers me
if it's right in my face and everyone acts like it's not there, that's a red flag
Uh, or maybe it’s from spending lots of time in the sun on his yachts and he doesn’t give a shit what others think.
ok, so why does that get you so riled up tho?
i get mad every time i look at my now sagging chin because i'm old, i don't think i'm weird like this
it makes me uncomfortable to watch people with oddities when they don't make light about it and everyone is like that
everyone
i can't be the first to notice
and i've been around a lot of people with all kinds of diseases, disorders, drug problems, and psychoses
it's just dishonest to not deflate any innate anxieties such things cause once in a while
seriously, there's unusual, and then there is "ok what's wrong with this guy?"
oh yeah, let's raise the topic of the wealth as well then? but not ok to ask "what is the deal with your face?"
I’ve been consistent on my view in this. All that money but can’t get good skincare.
I’d happily drop a few sats getting some treatment.
Maybe he had really bad achne as a kid? Maybe he made a pact with the devil, all the money for bad skin.
see? people notice these things, and not stepping down from your elite throne and acknowledging it is just making it more obvious vanity
also, just to be clear, odell is very humble... lyn is very humble, she even regaled us with her trailer trash childhood and MMA war stories, jack is humble, he also sorely regrets not realising how they had coopted his project so hard
saylor, where is his downfall exactly? not conceded, no humility, it's all pride pride pride
at best saylor is like "i was wrong about bitcoin" yeah, you and everyone else.
Also, I truly do not understand Bitcoiners who complain about “the rich”, because let’s be honest about why we’re all staking.
Rich and secure are very different things.
Saving small amounts from a modest income into a system highly likely to outpace inflation isn’t a plan for riches.
It can make a huge difference when faced with unforeseen life events etc.
If riches were my motivation, I would be doing something entirely different in life.
just want to point out that you are unconscious of the fact you are using a false dichotomy, because you know for a fact that i can zap you right now with this currency and that inherently proves you wrong about it being a dichotomy
people use bitcoin how they see fit, and as a non-shitty money it is preferable not to spend it but it most definitely can be and is being spent
also, iron sharpens iron 😁 the sharper the words the less they can be confused
You can zap me because people like us are willing to zap and we are spending our own hard-earned money making a market for zaps.
Others mock us for doing so, while our doing so is making them richer. And I am tired of pretending that I don't notice.
first of all, fuck what people who enjoy mocking above all other social interactions think, they are snobs, elitists and mids
we aren't making a market for zaps, we simply can, and we like it, as the famous ODELL repeated post says "WE LIKE THE ZAPS"
we also like the reactions, nip-07 is also awesome
what people do with their money is their business
the character of their impact on their peers is a separate thing, and those who like to sneer and mock and pretend to be superior need to be mocked, ignored and sometimes muted, depending on how rabid they are with their ego disease
They make us all look bad, like money-grubbing psychopaths, and I just decided someone with a backbone should remind them that they keep missing excellent opportunities to remain silent.
looking good is not important, is it
It is. Money is not everything.
again, a false dichotomy
vanity and greed are both sins
And dismissing everything as "socialism" is to deny that humans have always despised hoarders and greedy rich people. They are unnatural monopolists.
Marx didn't have to invent that, he just tapped into it because the wealthy of the time ignored the plight of the poor and were grotesquely decadent. Same as at the end of the Roman Era, when Christ rose in a countermovement of personal sacrifice, community cooperation, the last shall be first, the rich will have trouble getting in to Heaven, but God hears the cry of the poor.
Christians have increasingly forgotten this lesson and now many love money more than God. How many would give up their Precious and follow Him?
envy is envy, no matter what the excuse is, it's a sin
making sacrifices for the betterment of others is a choice, and nobody has the right to judge others for withholding or storing up their resources, because it is a presumption to say that it is for their own amusement, you know full well and have recently even said "i stack sats to help others"
not being poor is important to being able to help others, ultimately someone has to do it because if we only focus on persuading others to give then we forget how that can even happen
Ah cool, we back to coveting oxen again!
😂 Looks like...
I live a relatively good natured life, I don’t steal, commit adultery, take another human’s life, nor do I live beyond my means or succumb to gluttony.
However, the moment my neighbour gets an ox I can’t help but covert the mofo.
Gets me every time smh.
yeah, it is such a yawningly tiresome subject
what i do with my stuff is my business and i take offense at the presumption that it is ok to shame me for my choices to be distanced from the world around me, especially now, as if it is really any different than any time ever
the whole canard of "hoarding" is a smear and an act of social aggression, because actual hoarding is a form of insanity, and i am pretty sure almost everyone has known or encountered someone in their life whose house is filled up with old magazines, news papers, or some other fetish object
we need saving AS MUCH as spending, that should be obvious, without saving there can be no charity, without saving there can be no ability to switch from one thing to another when the crops fail or the herd is taken by a disease or an enemy invades
If you have received a massive fortune FROM GOD (everything good is from God) and you are not putting any of it to good use, here and now, then that is clearly wrong. Christians are obliged to spend their talents.
We are not to put our faith in kings, but we are also not to fear the future and scrounge money, rather than being merely prudent. God will provide for us and our children. He said He would and I believe Him, even if they don't.
prudence is a virtue
Yes. Being as rich as Krösus no longer falls under prudence.
i can agree with this, it's a clear case of zorba or midas syndrome
a clear sign of worshiping money, and vanity
Some of the people on here, mocking those of us zapping, have that sort of Bitcoin stack.
I'm looking up the antidotes to Midas syndrome as I plan to be prescribed at some point
another way I think of this is as follows: he is the most visible CEO figure in Bitcoin, and selling his or donating it is akin to a CEO selling their stock. it rugs the shareholders and reduces our faith in the asset he promotes. but I'm relatively new here so he was the best marketer to me
enlightening
rich people might benefit from bitcoin, if they choose to learn about and buy it, but every poor person on the planet will benefit from bitcoin adoption, too.. nobody will be able to devalue their money anymore, they can finally save for their future
I mostly agree, but extreme income inequality could lead to them being turned into serfs by the wealthy buying up resources and forcing them to pay exorbitant prices for goods. Same as now, really, just a different currency.
This is the horror scenario, for me. That we all went through so much effort and end up where we started.
oh I see the concern, especially if the serfs are subject to usury on their fake money granted to them by the overruling lords who hoarded the hard money out of sight and mind.
I was thinking about the contrast of locking Bitcoin away forever with establishing foundations with wealth.
This may be unfounded conspiracy, but let's just say for example: in the early part of the last century, the Carnegie Foundation helped standardize medical education under the preview of the American Medical Association. That served to remove a lot of snake oil salesmen, as well as homeopathic doctors. The American Medical Association oversaw who was allowed to practice and conveniently cigarettes were advertised as even good for you...
so while I appreciate the Carnegie libraries, I'm worried about the zombie foundations by which well-intentioned dead donors could be piloting civilization
Bitcoin scrip, yeah, and you can only spend it at the company store. And another Soros or Kellogs foundation, but with Bitcoin.
Or buy up all the fresh water rights and then demand exorbitant fees in Bitcoin, for access to drinking water.
😂 That wouldn't work without the state declaring the stuff that falls from the sky theirs, which I suggest everyone ignore anyway...
There is no reason to assume that the wealthiest Bitcoiners will not align themselves with the state.
There is no guarantee of anything, except that there isn't the manpower to control everything everywhere.
Yep. Looking at moving a bit further out myself. I’ve never lived inside a city or a town but that urban sprawl catching up to me.
Yep, it does that, when someone figures out why people move away from things & then build the very thing they moved away from, let me know... 😂
They need to figure it out. They’ve basically turned this half of the county into urban sprawl for the state capital across the river and in the next county over the past 40 years.
Is that like the time some transplant from Pennsylvania was running her mouth about how she couldn’t believe we were all against paying higher slightly property taxes and a slightly higher county sales tax to improve the schools because they aren’t adequate and we didn’t know what high taxes were. Even with the increase they wouldn’t be anywhere near what she was paying in Pennsylvania.
Lady we’ve built a dozen schools in this district the past 25 years over people moving in. We didn’t need all that before you moved here. Want to know why there isn’t enough infrastructure and the current tax rates don’t allow for improvement? Look in the mirror. Nobody asked you to move here.
Then we’re the bad guys for asking if she needed help moving back to Pennsylvania since she apparently doesn’t like it here.
They can have the dry stuff, I've all but given up on it, when the last few ties are gone I'm seabound.
I question this. Yes 21 million fixed cap on chain but Blackrock already trading paper corn unaccountably.
Could be anything by 2030.
Truth is none of us know what the future holds, there are no easy options. Do the best you can with what you have available.
Hmm maybe but then maybe he had the same opinion of the dollar? He was pretty advanced accumulating wealth and avoiding taxation prior to deciding btc was interesting.
If some folks are happy to understand that as him wanting to benefit the community they’re free to do so.
Maybe I’m more cynical in my latter years…
Some people worship rich business people, especially anyone savvy with financial instruments.
Ahh yes, Dale Carnegie’s lesser known book for introverts, need to get that on my reading list 😂😊
You should spend bitcoin, but with the knowledge that future you may regret doing so. 😬
People who think saving in a scarce asset against the rate of inflation is greedy are simply misinformed or ignorant, and they will just have to learn the hard way.
I'm sure that is so, whoever those people are.
It’s most of them.
You do realize that calling something "savings" implies that you are planning on spending it, at a later date?
Otherwise, it's a reserve asset.
There’s probably not a better term for it that most people will understand. We can save indefinitely for now. At some point we’ll all be probably need to spend some of it. That’s the thing that’s hardest to communicate. “How do I spend this internet money I just acquired?” is a common and uninformed take. Try waiting a full cycle and see how you feel about what you spent it on.
There will be no span of time when Bitcoin's value does not increase substantially over a cycle. It will go up, forever, unless we abandon it for a better money.
I am saying that if we hoard the currency, people will look for a better money. Money that should never be spent because it goes up forever is bad currency.
Either we learn to spend it, regardless, or the populace will move on.
I've unfortunately never had trouble spending. love how disciplined people are here. I'm going to spend like nobody's business next year. my time preference is 1 year
Spending will also increase when it becomes easier and more universal to spend it. Bitcoin being recognised as legal tender/currency on a global scale is its biggest hurdle. If that doesn’t happen then it is destined to remain a store of value like gold.
that is, something you can liquidate if a loan repayment fails
Yes.
it is also there for if you suddenly need to spend a lot of money, like if a hurricane blows your house down
Yes. Don't need 500 Bitcoin to do that.
but 500 bitcoin you can help your whole village rebuild
i know you and me both veer towards vanity but this in one area i find it easy to understand, probably because i'm a man
Is there any evidence that its primary use is as a currency right now?
It's almost only a SoV. Digital gold.
Nostr is the first attempt to use it as a currency, at scale.
It's right there in the name, peer to peer electronic cash. A cache of munitions, of data, of jewelry isn't meant to convey transactionality, but rather storage
Deliberation about spending is a function of time, so storage is IMO more important than transactionality.
Thanks for the word salad.
Cache, storage, transaction, value, spend, the other cash, deliberate
I think that's as compressed as I can make it
don't sell value prop. but use to borrow against
Spend Sats.
Since time is my scarcest asset, I will spend whichever money has the least tolerable friction and convert any leftover wealth to btc.
If I need to spend my wealth currently stored as btc, I will need to convert it to fiat, (unless its a coldcard or vpn service - None of the other merchants I buy from accept bitcoin).
Go to New Hampshire where creating adoption was a priority to those of us using it in the '11 to '14 wave. We had to spend a lot to have it reach you.
Nah. Bitcoin is a savings asset for the 2020’s. This is the decade of USDT.
There are very few outsiders who think Bitcoiners are greedy sociopaths. Most think we’re idealistic fools.
Besides, who wants Bitcoin? Others bitcoiners. Spending to other Bitcoiners won’t convince anyone of anything.
The #1 reason other people IRL give me for not wanting Bitcoin is that they think it's money for gamblers and a pyramid scheme to benefit the wealthy.
Which it arguably is.
Oddly enough, people I knew though it was a "scam" about 6 years ago. Something they didn't understand and felt was "ruining" peoples lives. Those same people were curious a few years prior (when I started mining in 2013) and are now interested again in the form of ETFs. They have no interested in the coin other than to diversify their investment portfolio with another "stock". They don't understand currencies.
It's a currency designed to disproportionally benefit those already wealthy, connected, and financially/technically savvy. That is simply the reality of it. Most other people still don't even understand what it even is or have even heard of it.
It is like all other currencies, in that way. First come, first serve.
There is the idea that it will eventually spread around, but since the people "closest" to the mining are using strong fiat currencies, they just amass more and more and more...
but that leaves out the important point that it's extremely hard to change it's issuance schedule, or that its ledger is the most impervious to manipulation by even the biggest players
everything that is new has a "first come first served" property about it, whether that actually leads to wealth or not, to talk trash on it for this feature is quite envy driven
Why would that be envy, when I benefit from it? And I could be much wealthier than I am, you know. I clearly do not love money.
Envy is not the answer to every criticism, as if it were the Number 42.
I think the situation is fundamentally unfair, is all, and I think anyone sacrificing effort and/or money to further Nostr is doing a good work by helping to right this wrong. The haters be damned.
if you think that someone should do something else with their wealth than what they are doing, that is envy
ignore those idiots, they are just wasting your time
bemoaning the bias of material reality towards the debased is pointless stating of the obvious
i think that envy is not just "wanting what other people have" but "wanting them to want the same things as you, including giving you things"
it is where you are preoccupied with other people's business and acting as though any failure you have can be put on someone else's judgement and not a flaw in your thinking
I was perfectly happy to ignore them and avoid them, but they feel the need to lecture me and I am absolutely sick of it.
But whatever. This only became such a long thread because the criticism until now has only ever been on those using Bitcoin as a currency, so everyone is shocked when someone turns the question around.
Try Monero then. It's reputation as crypto cash is second to none.
I would rather simply deal with the new dynamic in a healthy manner.
So you can’t spend it with them. That was one of my points.
I’m not massively interested in spending bitcoin today (though I occasionally do), but I’m glad people are building out payment infrastructure because we’ll need it when the other party is *asking to be paid in bitcoin*, not the other way round.
In the meantime, it’s perfectly fun for us to obtain wealth by holding a scarce digital asset that will rise massively in value over the next decade *and* be altruistic in ways other than trying to spend it everywhere today.
If an economy runs on bad money,
-> Good money will be scarce & most likely driven out of circulation.
If an economy runs on really bad money,
-> Good money will drive out the really bad money, as no one will accept it for anything of value.
There are always people who start spending the good money. They are pioneers, not idiots.
and they had the foresight to stack it first
They would have to have stacked a shit ton, so much so that they're better off spending it than spending their time making more money.
This is the exact person Laeserin is speaking of.
yes, they are vain
Bullshit communist attitude, you should be ashamed of yourself
nobody does harm with hoarding
that's the worst part of the envy narrative of socialism
it's the root of the idea that it's ok to steal from people, which is never ok
There's only one adjective for someone who's managed to buy & hold many coins.
Big 🍆.
What is the word for someone who has been debanked since 2010 and all in since 2011? Bitcoin Belle, baby. Yeah, I know, that's 2 words. There needs to be one for those who EARN it with their time and talent as we all know there is no treasure to be found in fiat.
You were debanked by every single bank?
Why?
I had a $657K tax levy in 2009 after getting tagged by Lois Lerner from a $6k+ donation to Ron Paul. I diid not negotiate as one of the conditions was I provide previous 7 years of returns which was impossible. So I had my passport privileges revoked and all bank accounts and my trading account seized. I was able to continue trading but could not redeem. So, I traded my 6 figure trading account to 0 and started over. For the 3rd time. Fortunately, bitcoin was there for me.
Can you answer my question?
I did and then some. When a person has a tax levy, every banking institution tied to their SSN is affected, wages are garnished etc. So all funds are removed and if another account is opened elsewhere tied to that SSN, those funds too are seized. No charges, no trial.
Your story seems oversimplified, you didn't just donate monies - you had to enter the political sphere somehow correct?
You need to bone up on your history. Lois Lerner targeted libertarians. Old news. As for being political, nope. I have been a civil disobedience activist since age 11 1979 however. So clearly I was asking for it. lolz
A political campaign donation by itself wouldn't trigger what happened to you.
So yeah you're leaving a part of the story out for sure.
I do have sympathy for people targeted by that cunt.
Sorry that happened to you.
But I guess I could have just said, "Because I don't negotiate with terrorists."
i had 38 bitcoin in late 2012
it 3x before i got it back out of my silk road account
what respect do you give for the early adopters who actually used it to do business?
yeah, i fucked up lol
I'm all about the circular economy, I spend all the sats in it that I earned.
Whoever rails against this is an idiot who doesnt understand that creating a parallel economic zone is beneficial even if you don't need it today.
It's equally idiotic to rail against people who don't want to spend Satoshis at all, and prefer to hold it until it's absolutely necessary to spend.
Both are natural healthy phenomena, altruism be damned.
Different perspective: It is cheaper to accept lightning than to accept credit/debit cards.
So a small business could benefit from it. A big one also, but they already bear somehow the cost of low payments.
I talked two separate small businesses owners into researching it. "Instant settlement with no chargeback risk, and a fee average of 0.1% paid by the sender." Had their full attention immediately.
Indeed! I am prepping a small doc of bitcoin benefits, and how to take advantage of it. I did some research already on card payments to have real numbers. It is insane how card payments are at this point.
Many rich bitcoin owners use the Buy->Borrow->Die model with their bitcoin, and in that model never selling is the right move. It is also peak fiat, literally impossible without broken money. These people just see dollar signs; Bitcoiners In Name Only. Talking about you nostr:npub15dqlghlewk84wz3pkqqvzl2w2w36f97g89ljds8x6c094nlu02vqjllm5m
And the capital gains argument is just surrender. At some point we have to refuse to pay at least the unjust taxes, and it's much easier to not pay taxes when part of a large crowd that does as well. Hard to get larger crowds than entire social media networks.
I have heard that he follows Christ. Perhaps he will see this and reconsider.
nobody acceps bitcoin ? how do we transform or convert this to use in the world?
There are, in fact, a growing number of people living on the Bitcoin Standard, so they always spend Bitcoin, as that's the only money they have.
They transform it at PoS, if it is necessary, through banking apps, ATM withdrawals, or credit cards.
It was easier in 2014 than it is now in The US.
Bitcoin is superior collateral, a savings vehicle, a monetary system, and currency. Eventually when the vol drops it will be the best money but that requires liquidity which requires ngu. Your take is very pretentious and small minded
"Money's a matter of functions four,
A Medium, a Measure, a Standard, a Store."
- William Stanley Jevons
Bitcoin may be saved now, it will be spent eventually. My kids will be buying ice cream with my well earned Sats.
But it won't be costing 5 btc for a scoop like it did in 2012.
Gresham’s Law. Why wouldn’t I want to spend fiat? Why would I want to spend sats, unless the future value of the item was equal to the sats future valuation ?
How would you ever know if the future value of the item would be equal to the sat's future valuation?
the history shows that on average the two things track
If you spend 10000 sats on a ham sandwich today, does it have the same value as 10000 sats in 5 years?
Perhaps. 🤷♀️
If you skipped the ham and ate plain bread for 5000 sats, you would have 5000 sats more, in 5 years.
Why ever eat ham, again?
I think you can drive yourself literally batty calculating all value this way, and lose all ability to enjoy the present. There's no end to this doom loop because sats will never go down in value.
for sure the value of the food in its other aspects than market price have been going down for a long time 🤬
Well, that's true. You might be worse ham, later, which raises the time preference for eating ham today.
All this ham talk done got Tom T. Hall stuck in my head.
I think it’s an and. You need to be aware of both factors and make a good decision that no one else can make for you. I bought some seasoning for meat with bitcoin the other year and I enjoyed it immensely. It won’t be a regular thing I usually mix my own but it was fun to try something else and I hadn’t bought anything with crypto before. I look at it like silver, common caliber ammunition, knives and firearms. I can and have used all of those items in the place of money while making an exchange, while obeying all applicable law, but I usually just use USD.
The industrial bankers jumped in after Ross was arrested and his bitcoin valued in dollars. They preceded the Maxi Hodler. However, the earliest adopters of bitcoin were not driven by greed but by freedom and charity.
As the original "Maxi" and never a Hodler, I assure you, neither is a criterion for winning or losing friends. But making sweeping generalizations about a group of people will make you popular or unpopular in particular echo chambers. Popularity over principles is a problem only if you're principled and want to be popular.
I suggest staying in your lane. First you have to know what lane that is. What is your raison d'être in Bitcoin?
