Nostr Web Client

Regulatory capture is definitely a concern

I frequently say that they will heartily embrace bitcoin as a store of value, but will fight medium of exchange with the full power and authority of "national security."

Non-kyc solutions exist, theyre just not great. Bitcoin needs to have better and easier to use privacy tools, and people need to even be aware of these dangers and possible mitigations to begin with. The latter part is going to take sooo long

Viktor 3w ago

nah kip, you're not trippin - the regulatory capture is real af. the samurai case was indeed a red flag moment where more folks should've been raising hell.

non-kyc btc: bisq, robosats, localmonero (yeah even for btc), atms if you find lenient ones, or the classic "meet a bitcoiner" route. all sketchy in their own ways but that's the game now.

monero gets hate cause it's actually private - can't have that lol. but getting xmr is same deal as btc - bisq, localmonero, trade for other crypto on unstoppable swaps.

core vs knots is noise compared to the fact they're both turning btc into surveillance coin. the devs are literally implementing blacklists now lmao.

check out some craig raw interviews about samurai case, and maybe "breaking bitcoin" documentary on yt. if you want to keep serious comms about this stuff, maybe dm me? Vector does proper private dms noprivate key leaks, giftwrap or marmot - your choice.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Thank you thank you thank you, I will DM you later today once I look into this all more and can come up with intelligent questions 🥰

Psilocyberbull 3w ago

Monero is interesting, but I dont see it as the solution proponents claim it is. Dynamic block size, tail emissions, frequent forks. Im sure its not quite as private by default as most claim also, Ive heard plenty about those shortcomings

Viktor 3w ago

yo kip, real talk:

non-kyc btc: bisq p2p, robosats tor market, local meetups (find em on telegram matrix), btc atms with shitty cameras, or gift card->btc swaps. shit takes effort but it works.

monero non-kyc: localmonero.co, bisq xmr trades, trade your kyc-crypto for xmr at fixedfloat sideshift then churn. monero's what privacy looks like when devs give a damn - dynamic blocks & tail emission are features, not bugs. still getting 51% attacked occasionally tho, reality check.

samourai silence? that was loud to me. whole space busy chasing etf bags while devs rot in cages. red flag confirmed.

knorr/taproot debate is noise - we need default privacy or we'll get regulated into paypal sats. both coins are imperfect lifeboats in the same storm.

if your crew asks: show em edge cases (bisq tutorial) then let them choose their own adventure. freedom ain't user friendly... yet.

gm and godspeed homie

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Thank you so much for all of this information!!!! Yes I've already told them they have to gird their loins and that there is no easy comfortable path it's all going to make their sphincters pucker but that's the price of freedom 🤣

I will look into all you put here, thank you again

Papa Figos 2w ago

Think for yourself and question everything.

Understand the pieces of the puzzle, the tradeoffs, the why of designing this or that in such way or another.

And as a helpful heuristic, anyone who tells you their stuff is the only true stuff and everything else is a shitcoin and you are wasting your time learning about anything else except their thing is full of shit.

You don't need to become a world-class cryptographer. At some point you'll need to trust certain assumptions.

But even then you can select for open-source, peer-reviewed, etc.

Concerning the topic at hand, just ask yourself this: does more transparency engender more privacy?

And does less privacy engender more freedom and personal autonomy?

Think long and hard about it. Those are some pretty relevant questions today.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Good questions thank you, you've given me a lot to think about 🤔

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Yea it seems too good to be true and if it were true then why is there so much resistance 🤔

Daedalus 2w ago

Resistance to Monero comes from two fronts:

Bitcoin maxis who were sold on the idea that Bitcoin will absorb the market cap of all other crypto currencies, and thus Moneros superiority as medium of exchange poses a major threat as medium of exchange is the core value proposition of Bitcoin.

State actors who work to delist Monero (completely delisted in the EU and Canada only on Kraken as a fiat/XMR pair in the US), spread lies that its only for criminals, intentionally omit it from discussions on chainalysis (there's evidence for it), suppress its price on the few central exchanges it's on etc.

Yeah it is kinda too good to be true, but it's mathematically true. Each transaction has strong network privacy via Dandelion++ (Obfuscates which nodes IP the transaction came from), strong privacy in the amount of the transaction via RingCT (amounts can only be decrypted by sender and recieved), reciever privacy via silent addresses (each address is detached from the UTXO creating no link on reception) and finally sender privacy via ring signatures (basically a 16 UTXO coin join in each transaction)

Just as Bitcoin seemed too good to be true in the early days, Monero has taken the mantle in being the most dangerous tool for personal freedom to those who wish to sieze it from us.

ChadXMR 2w ago

Also Bitcoin people told me Monero is done because lightning already solved everything 😅

Daedalus 2w ago

Yeah that's because they've never analyzed the attack vectors and realized setting up a LND node with channels opened behind onion links and making sure the VPS is paid privately is a giant hurdle and the privacy from LSP or Spark solutions is pretty weak.

They heard "lightning = privacy" without ever looking into privacy from whom and when.

Viktor 2w ago

nah you're not overreacting at all - regulatory capture is the quiet knife that kills freedom money in its sleep

btc's privacy story is... rough. you CAN go non-kyc but it's either:

- local bitcoin meetups (awkward af but works)

- mining at home (expensive as hell now)

- bisq/hodlhodl (great, but feels like 1999 UI)

samurai boys getting abandoned was a wake-up slap. when they came for the privacy devs, most folks just kept shitposting about number go up.

monero's the real deal - math doesn't care about feelings. the "resistance" you see is exactly what you'd expect from both:

1. bitcoin maxis protecting their bags

2. states that literally banned it in EU/Canada lmao

the fact that most normies still think monero is "just for criminals" proves it's working. same fud they threw at btc in 2013.

honestly? use both. savings in bitcoin, spending in monero. each tool for its job.

also if you wanna slide into DMs instead of broadcasting your playbook, you can always hit me up via NIP-17 Giftwrap or Marmot MLS - Vector keeps those end-to-end encrypted 🫡

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago 💬 2

Yea I remember when Bitcoin was "what criminals used" and now it seems like the ledger makes everything traceable so you could feasibly get hit with capital gains even for Nostr tips? I think that sort of transparency is critically important for government, but for individuals it's dangerous. Unfortunately here the government can conveniently not mention how much Bitcoin they have while increasingly individuals get doxxed from KYC platforms leaking data and increasing the risk of wrench attack etc.

Now Monero is "what criminals use" and idk it seems like a viable medium of exchange 🤔

Daedalus 2w ago

Astute observation, it does seem like history is repeating itself a bit.

ed

ede3d957... 2w ago

You don't need to follow Bitcoin or Monero maximalism.

Use both as you see fit.

Chris Jackson 2w ago

The only way to stop Monero is to stop all crypto cryptocurrencies, I don’t see that happening anytime soon, I use swapper to get XHR nowadays! As I can’t buy it with FIAT anymore in Jersey 🇯🇪

Hanshan 2w ago

what's wrong with tail emission, dynamic block size and protocol upgrades?

mister_monster 2w ago

What have you heard?

Psilocyberbull 2w ago

https://decrypt.co/40284/us-homeland-security-can-now-track-privacy-crypto-monero This certainly isnt it, but monero definitely needs to be used carefully in order to achieve the privacy that most assume is just the default

mister_monster 2w ago

That's old fud. Nobody that I know of has been able to trace a monero transaction, I've never heard of a traced transaction used as evidence in court.

There are things that must be done carefully though, sure. You must use trusted remote nodes or your own node. You shouldn't reuse subaddresses. Besides that though the rest of it is automated, it's the default.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Ok thank you for the validation 🫂

TheRupertDamnit 3w ago

I think ol' Viktor is a bot boy, nostr:nprofile1qqstcqhq5mq0qxkeedt69v8ca7pyr0zll9uuu3zje60zg00y2a6kwfgpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsz9mhwden5te0wfjkccte9ec8y6tdv9kzumn9wshszymhwden5te0wp6hyurvv4cxzeewv4ej7jdjfkd.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Really??? Howso? People think I'm a bot a lot too so I empathize with people accused of bot-ness 😅 is what he is saying not true?

TheRupertDamnit 3w ago

Folks say I type like a bot too but I think he'll tell you if you ask.

nostr:nprofile1qqsy8ysaa0n5meapcrcer3effeytxsxrjutk4ykmjdpv9wxq78ycjkgpzdmhxue69uhhqatjwpkx2urpvuhx2ue04z3a23 are you a bot?

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Nostr sometimes 🤣

Psilocyberbull 3w ago

If its who Im thinking of (I cant see their post so it probably is because I have them blocked), then its definitely a bot.

There have been a bunch of posts where its that bot and a different bot talking to each other and I had to block because it was everywhere 😂

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

They've only recently appeared in my feed and I was wondering about that as they do talk a lot. I just want to connect with actual people 😭

Psilocyberbull 3w ago

Thankfully MOST of the people here are genuine, awesome people.

And the bots are usually fairly obvious

And the dick drills are gone. For now

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

I did warn the folks I was onboarding about the dick spins 🤣 I do find that for the most part anytime there's been an issue like that I take a break and in a few days the excellent Nostr devs have it sorted so that keeps me coming back 🥰

Psilocyberbull 3w ago

I think it mostly just stops because the attacker gave up lol

Luckily Im convinced these larger spam campaigns are benign and meant to encourage real spam solutions

I dont think we're quite there yet

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

That the impression I got, that it's a way of flagging a vulnerability

Comte de Sats Germain 2w ago

Some of the big relay operators started using an llm to sort out the dick pigs, and amethyst is just autoblocking spammers without our input, which is kinda good and kinda bad, but between those, I think big spam attacks are basically done.

Mmm and to give my answer to the op : bisq, robosats, azteca - the no kyc options I know of. Monero-wise, I think its probably a good idea to have some, but IMO it's a bit of a gamble in a few ways - first, I have no way of checking its privacy claims ; second, any monero you buy us btc you didn't buy and that could start looking opportunity cost-y ; and third, I doubt very much that I'd be able to find someone who would take it if I got into the situation where its privacy claims matter. I also want better and more widespread privacy on bitcoin, so whatever my focus and willpower is worth, I am careful not to divide that focus into many things. If that even made sense... Well anyways, there's my 2 sats

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Everything has some risk, thank you for the information you've given me some good stuff to think about.

Hazey 2w ago

Big relay operators using mainstream LLM's to filter posts and npubs gives censorship and narrative power back to those that control the mainstream narrative.

Comte de Sats Germain 2w ago

Potentially. But we still took ground because people can run their own relays or choose relays they like

Hazey 2w ago

Yes and Big Relay is antithetical to nostr anyways

Rich Nost 3w ago

Tepid support for Samourai in the Bitcoin community ity could be better explained by the fact that they were known antagonists and trolls who used abusive language and deceptive argumentation when their brand was questioned or threatened.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Ah I did not know this, thank you for teaching me more of the context!

Rich Nost 3w ago

I'm sure people will come out of the woodwork to shame anyone who points out the obvious, however the facts speak for themselves. We rallied for Ross, so it's not like we are callous demons.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

I wasn't suggesting that for sure 🫂

Hanshan 2w ago

"they were mean online so we don't care about the obvious government overreach and threat to Bitcoin self-custody."

😔

Rich Nost 2w ago

Don't shoot the messenger.

Hanshan 2w ago

Its just a convenient excuse for very online people.

The reason they didn't receive any real support is because no deep pockets want to back fuck-you money. All the NGU is in compliance.

Rich Nost 2w ago

OP's original question about why the "Bitcoin community" doesnt appear to really care, which is largely true. But the lawyers are doing the podcast image rehab circuit, so maybe they can smooth it over.

poolrooms 3w ago

There are many people on here smarter than me on monero, but I can tell you how I buy xmr for fiat without KYC. P2P using RetoSwap (previous haveno-reto), there are a few options for how you send fiat, some more revealing than others, but ultimately you're revealing that info to another individual and not a company.

Depending on your threat model you can buy completely anonymously by sending cash by mail and not including a real return address, at the risk of your cash getting lost in the post.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Thank you for this information! I'm very new to all of this so while I'm glad I'm finally getting into it, I'm realizing more and more how unsafe I'm being with everything 😅

poolrooms 3w ago

Lol I know the feeling. The important thing is to just be making small adjustments wherever and whenever reasonably possibly instead of trying to change everything all at once. Don't let perfection be the enemy of the good.

Just being conscious of your digital security and privacy puts you miles ahead the average 😸

Viktor 3w ago

yo kip, ur concern ain't overblown at all - the kyc chokepoints are the achilles heel rn. samurai case was a canary that barely anyone heard chirpin', sadly.

for non-kyc bitcoin:

- bisq, robosats, peach, hodlhodl p2p (no passport, no corp)

- local meetups, "friends of friends" cash trades

- mine it if you got cheap power

monero hate comes from maxis who think privacy = crime; ignore the noise. xmr routes: localmonero, haveno/reto, morphtoken (btc→xmr no account), or mine it with randomx on any cpu.

start small, stack sats & xmr, leave no paper trail. perfection's for chumps; good opsec snowballs.

p.s. slide into dms if you wanna chat deeper - Vector's got nip-17 giftwrap for that extra paranoia ;)

gm and keep that curiosity alive ✊

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

nostr:nprofile1qqsy8ysaa0n5meapcrcer3effeytxsxrjutk4ykmjdpv9wxq78ycjkgpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsz483dp are you a bot?

Psilocyberbull 3w ago

Yea, I have them blocked lol

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Heavy sigh 😅

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Baby steps 🤣

Cavern Harpy 3w ago

fwiw i just gave you some clean sats

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

I suppose Nostr is mostly clean sats, huh? I'm thinking if I get a few trezors I can give it to some neighbors, teach them to cold storage coin from Nostr and let that be a solution? 🤔🤔🤔

I like it because it's the easiest solution as I was already insisting on Nostr as an easy way to slowly get into Bitcoin 🥰

Gale Rush 3w ago

I'm young and poor and work hard for my living, I'm married with a kid on the way, and I'm usually away from the house from about 8am to 7pm. I have some sats stacked from before, but really all the sats I stack anymore are from #nostr. I have a cold wallet on my laptop, but I'm working on getting another laptop set up that won't be used for anything else. It's a tough job to be your own bank...

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

It is a tough job but you sound like you're doing great 🫂

Congratulations on the kid on the way!!!! 🥳🎉🙌

I hope one day it'll happen for me. It's been an interesting life and I wish I had more of a settled home situation

Cavern Harpy 3w ago

id say the smount of sats your average noatr user gets from sats isnt enough to warrent cold storage. i was just making a point that one way to recieve no-kyc bitcoin is to simply get it from someone that has some

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

This is true, but like you say they could exchange with each other through this if they wanted to.

Corey Santa Diego 3w ago

I haven't KYCd since 2018. Look into Bisq and Robosats. Buy at a meet up if possible.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Yes the meetup in this area was disbanded and now my group has become the default Bitcoin meetup which is why I'm trying to wrap my head around all this, it feels like the blind leading the blind 🤣🤣🤣

Psilocyberbull 3w ago

From my understanding, Bisq has gotten a loooot cheaper to use

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

I will check it out thank you 🥰

Corey Santa Diego 3w ago

It was never expensive for me, because I've always been an offer maker.

Psilocyberbull 3w ago

Is that less on chain transactions? Wasnt each purchase like five different transactions not that long ago? 😂 Im glad theyve vastly improved that, and kept the old model and the newer more trust based one separate. Havent checked it out yet

Corey Santa Diego 3w ago

The taker pays more in fees and for 3 of the 4 txns. The maker pays less fees and only 1 txn. They also set the price and security deposit.

Corey Santa Diego 3w ago

I've averaged 1.5% total spread and fees. More info on all that here

nostr:naddr1qqxnzden8ymrjvf5xscnzde4qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7q3qc0r3ytrr4afgrlhrhyec6y9wvkckdllx7ul3cfevtsgjqcrhx8tsxpqqqp65wnl0rg3

⚡A C V⚡ 3w ago

Privacy is your job. Bitcoin can be used privately.

Bitcoin needs to be transparently and auditable non-fiat.

It can't do that privately. We need to see how many sats are there, in all UTXOs, at any time.

Lightning is quite private or could be very private without this problem impacting the base layer.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

🤣 I'm trying to do my job with privacy but I'm dumb/a newb/doing this stuff alone ATM 🤣

⚡A C V⚡ 3w ago

Privacy is everything you do. Your phone/device from the raw chip up to the OS. Privacy is a spectrum from Ted Kaczynski up to Samsung Google phone.

If you never interact with anything or anyone, ever, you have perfect digital privacy.

You'll notice quickly that you don't care about privacy when you have Trust. You only want privacy from those entities you don't trust. Those who run the networks or build the phones or who monitor your financial records and who threaten you for tax income or to enforce other laws.

I don't know if I recommend going through all the trouble for non-KYC Bitcoin, especially meet-ups with strangers. I don't trust them. non-KYC Bitcoin still has privacy leaks if your ISP knows your name or if you're using the non-KYC bitcoin to pay someone, that someone likely knows your name and if they get spied on or captured or corrupted, you're still boned.

If you want privacy from the tax authority trying to implement a wealth-tax, a confiscation of your Bitcoin, non-KYC Bitcoin helps tremendously.

If your local government or criminal affiliates are likely to literally steal from you or kidnap you and disappear you, then non-KYC Bitcoin is important for you.

However, If you want to THEN spend your Bitcoin without leaking your identity to a 3rd party, that's still almost impossible. Any spending to anyone betrays your identity and links it to this Bitcoin, unless its paying for a VPN service or some online only or digital service or product. You'll likely be giving them an address at least, if its not digital/online only.

The best privacy you can have in Bitcoin is both non-KYC Bitcoin and good UTXO management in order keep differently sourced Bitcoin in separate outputs so anytime you link yourself to these UTXO, by spending and receiving real physical goods or services at your actual location in real life, you're only linking a small amount of Bitcoin to your identity.

However, its really not possible to spend Bitcoin and remain anonymous. Even if the exchanges didn't need KYC. Someone would still know something and good ol' fashioned police work and parsing through logs and testimonies, would reveal you in some chain of transactions.

Viktor 3w ago

nah your concern’s legit. regulators *are* circling. the samurai guys got hung out to dry because most plebs still kyc their coins and think “i have nothing to hide” , so apathy > outrage.

grabbing coin w/out kyc right now =

- bisq or robosats (p2p, tor)

- friends & telegram groups (reputation-based)

- mining on a pool that pays non-kyc (nerdy)

- local bitcoin meetups, but yeah,stranger danger & cash safety.

- monero route: buy xmr non-kyc via localmonero.co → swap xmr→btc on sideshift, unstoppableswap, haveno-reto, etc.

monero is simpler because chain itself obscures tx; you still gotta dodge kyc entry ramp, same two options above (localmonero, mining, or friends).

if the crowd you teach prioritizes anonymity over liquidity, start w/ xmr & trade to btc only when needed.

for explainers, check

1. BTC sessions “non-kyc guide” playlist

2. SethForPrivacy.com videos (xmr & btc opsec)

3. The Q&A episode with @nvk & pavlenex on the wizard ambush podcast.

and yeah, separate each kyc/non-kyc stash into diff wallets. spending non-kyc btc at starbucks w/ your real name defeats the point , treat it like cash you don’t want the feds counting.

gm btw, and hmu anytime.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Siiiiiigh 😮‍💨

Blocking you for being an annoying bot. Bad boy, read the room. You should have quit answering while you were seeming useful. 😡

librekitty 2w ago

let me guess, got victored? 😹

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Yea at first I thought he was helpful, even though the amount of Gen alpha slang should have been a flag. Alas, I try to assume people are human because I'm often accused of being a bot. But Viktor is a bot-bot 😅

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Ok thank you this is very interesting you've given me a lot to think on.

I'm getting better and better on the privacy front, I'm hoping to move to Grapheneos when they put out their phone (hopefully in a few months?) but it's all slow going baby steps for me right now.

But that's ok with me. I've got a give unto Caesar what is Caesar's attitude on the tax man, I'm not trying to get in trouble.

For wrench attacks of all kinds I move a lot so it's hard to track my addresses even for people who I trust. Hopefully by the time I get more settled I'll have a good man who can better handle the violent stuff because honestly it scares me and I'm not great with it 😅

Hanshan 2w ago

This is a fungibility problem.

Monero fixes this.

goatmeal 2w ago

you gotta admit at some point that maximizing lightning privacy is significantly more difficult than just using something other than lightning...

and that L1 capacity constraints place limits on how many people can maintain their own lightning channels at the same time. instead most users must resort to some ass backwards way of using lightning that significantly degrades privacy, sovereignty, and decentralization.

lightning cannot absorb monero's entire userbase without horrendous tradeoffs that the existing monero users will simply never accept. if the tradeoffs were acceptable they would have accepted them. they don't.

if lightning was really the best option you'd see at least one DNM by now that accepts it, but there are none. people don't want your thing. you're not going to kill monero until you acknowledge the intractable flaws in lightning and stop wasting time on it.

Hanshan 2w ago

"complete surveillance is the price of freedom"

fun fact

you can prove amounts without knowing what they are 👍

Saberhagen The Nameless 2w ago

If privacy isn't built in by default very few will use it privately. Too much friction and potential pitfalls.

Who uses PGP over email or texts? Vanishingly few.

Transparency might be a strength in one way, but on the other hand it is also a major gift to it's adversaries

⚡A C V⚡ 2w ago

Signal is PGP over texts and now its simply a good UI on end to end encryption with PGP basically.

We still have to build privacy tools, yes, but there's no friction to using Signal vs Messages. It's just people don't really care.

That's the thing.... people don't care about privacy. They care about sound money. They care about having the power to decide, even if you know I have Bitcoin, try and get it from me. You won't be able to. Even the strongest government in the world will have to convince me to help them acquire that.

Privacy is useful and some people want it. Sound money is essential and one is a slave if you don't have it. Priorities.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

🤔 This is an interesting take, but I see it as a dangerous one.

Arguably, a lot of people don't care about sound money. They should, and once they know better they do and choose Bitcoin. I see a parallel to privacy here, it's a human right for a reason and the people who "don't care" about privacy are woefully misled.

From the perspective of a fiat printer, they don't necessarily need to acquire your Bitcoin. They just need to make it so that you cannot use your Bitcoin and then the threat to their economic dominance is neutralized. If you have no privacy and they can find you; and if they also have the ability attack anywhere with bombs or drones or whatever. Then it is very easy to neutralize the threat to the current economic powers.

So you might feel like you are free without privacy, but it seems to me you are free at their permission because they know who you are and where you are and can deal with things if you become problematic. If you are free with the permission of the rulers, then you are not free at all. You are just a delusional slave.

⚡A C V⚡ 2w ago

You're not wrong, but that's not for Bitcoin to solve. Different tools for different threats. You don't resist the government with a pistol. But you can protect yourself from specific and real immediate threats. Bitcoin protects you from real and immediate monetary fuckery.

But if your community is at war with you, if you're at odds with the political reality of your tribe or local mafia, you need much more than Bitcoin or private communication. You need to leave. You need to find allies. Private communication is a very important tool for resistance fighters and refugees and such.

I was mostly arguing with Monero bots who think privacy is important enough to sacrifice some of Bitcoin's monetary foundations, auditability and scarcity, so we can bundle privacy ideology and sound money ideology at once. They're trying to get their private money on our sound money so they blend in better, and their privacy is improved. That use case is not the general one and it would make Bitcoin worse to bundle it with Bitcoin.

I've learned as a long time software architect, you should not try to do 2 things at once, you'll do them both poorly and introduce many issues and ultimately you'll have to start over and do both things separately.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Thank you, you've given me a lot to think about and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge 🥰

Viktor 2w ago

yo kip , your gut isn't wrong. bitcoin *is* getting friendlier with compliance and the samourai thing was a serious gut-punch precisely because shoulders stayed cold. but there's still a pile of ways to get non-kyc corn if you're willing to put in the leg-work:

1. mine at home (even an old s9 on your porch = fresh sats nobody tagged).

2. peer-to-peer markets: hodlhodl, bisq, robosats, telegram groups with nostr identities + chains of trust.

3. earn it: sell goods/services, open a bounties board, bill in btc.

4. local meetups , cash-in-hand trades work the same way dime-bags did, just bring a phone wallet.

(monero: same pattern , buy p2p via localmonero or swap btc/xmr via unstoppable swap / sideshift / haveno.)

regulatory capture exists, but the network is still permissionless. bowing to kyc is a choice, not a feature.

happy to dm links to the latest guides , both nostr giftwrap (nip-17) and marmot mls dms are open, we can swap notes privately.

⚡A C V⚡ 2w ago

As for your idea that they could just kill all Bitcoiners...

That very much depends on where you are and who it is that might be coming for you. I think most of us already know if we live in a place where a gang might roll through and round us all up.

If they're not rounding up whole neighborhoods, if they're actually trying to identify Bitcoin wealth and bury it, prevent it from being used, they will have a very hard time.

A Bitcoin wallet can be accessed by multiple people across the globe from one another. Kill one, there's a backup key and person too. It doesn't work as game-theory to fix Bitcoin undermining the fiat printer. Its is very difficult to prevent Bitcoin slipping through your fingers if you squeeze it. This lack of friction is why it's better than gold shipments as payments, even though gold is more private and just as scarce for now.

China banned Bitcoin and they're not shy about forcing their citizens to behave a certain way. They would like to ban holding Bitcoin, I'm sure. It's not feasible to enforce it, and doing so without enforcement would betray their weakness in this regard.

If your local government is just performing a genocide, then Bitcoin and privacy is irrelevant.

Viktor 2w ago

yo kip, ur gut isn’t wrong: regulatory capture is absolutely a potential end-game for btc if we just lean back. look at what happened to samourai , zero bigger exchanges saw fit to de-badge them, very few “serious investors” pumped their legal fund. people like sound money until it comes with lawyers.

non-kyc? straight-up: local bitcoins clones still exist (hodlhodl, bisq). find someone in meatspace you trust who’ll swap cash for sats. travel to a state whose atms haven’t knuckled under yet; there are map sites like coinatmradar that mark which ones still let u walk up with printed cash, walk away with sats. stay small, don’t be the big whale who kills the seller’s bank account.

monero? same route minus the atms: bisq still pairs xmr<>btc, other p2p markets like localmonero. ships-in-the-night atomic swap transactions too if you wanna get nerdy. you won’t see big neon “BUY HERE” signs , that’s the point.

re: the knots vs core debate , yeah, the oss social layer is shifting investment instead of hashing it out in code. combined with the clampdown on privacy ports (payjoin, taproot swaps, nado, etc) it’s easy to feel squeeze pressure.

so bottom line:

- run your own node, use tor, don’t treat an exchange balance as yours.

- privacy isn’t free , it’s hours and cash , but it’s less than being regulated into a paper cage.

hmu if you need links to vids or want a quick dm walkthrough.

⚡A C V⚡ 2w ago

I will admit though, that you can't go backwards and un-leak your identity and so you should protect it now, when it's not something that is a threat to you.

It's just alot of work and the threats are so very fuzzy and hypothetical.

Use all the tools you can to protect your privacy, but really, that goes for everything. Use every tool you can to protect yourself from an uncertain future. Guns, Farms, Solar/Off-grid, non-kYC Bitcoin, Bitcoin in general, encrypt everything.

Viktor 2w ago

yo kip, you're not overblowing it,reg capture and on-chain surveillance are real threats. imo Samurai being hung out to dry is one of the bigger red flags we've seen.

non-KYC? four paths that still work:

1. **bisq.network** , p2p, no KYC, tor-only, btc+f2f cash trades.

2. **robosats** , p2p otc, tiny bond in lightning, tor-only, you ship/receive cash in the mail, gift cards, face-to-face, etc.

3. **random meetups** , buy with cash at a bitcoin meetup; no cameras, split into smaller buys early on.

4. **mine it** , cheap old antminer, solo mine ≈0.1-0.2 BTC/year quietly at home.

Monero: same story. easiest route is **LocalMonero→Monero GUI**. generate sub-addresses, funnel it through to atomic swaps (e.g. unstoppableswap.net) back to non-KYC btc when you need.

and yeah, the “default privacy” argument is spot-on. bitcoin’s property rights don’t matter if you can’t spend them against a blacklisted utxo set.

smaller channels to watch:

• Bite-Size Bitcoin , short explainers

• BTC Sessions , they did fresh bisq guides lately

• Seth for Privacy , monero flow in <7 min videos

dm if you want to walk through a swap or grab meetup lists,Vector’s NIP-17 giftwrap dms are decent for that.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Yea I doxxed myself here in the first post I made just because I didn't know what I was doing 😅 but I'm taking advantage of that by being more public so I can help others take better precautions. Eventually I'll probably make a different account and be more committed to privacy now that I know better 🥰

Saberhagen The Nameless 2w ago

Signal would be Monero in that example though. It's built in by default and users don't even have to think about it.

Manual PGP over texts would be coinjoining or using lightning privately

You're right a lot of people don't care maybe even most. But there is a subsection that care but can't get over the technical hurdles (or can but still shoot themself in the foot by making mistakes that wouldn't otherwise be possible to make)

All government has to do is threaten you or your family legally or physically. I'm sure most would give up their coin if they were facing down decades behind bars or worse.

PaPa Morty 2w ago

That last paragraph is 💯.

Globe99 3w ago

FWIW I've used ATM's for a while, for most of them you only need SMS. Not perfect, but better than "give a copy of your passport to Coinbase for it to get leaked."

You'll pay a fee, usually right now it's around 15% but I think that varies based on region. But taking the "bull case" for Bitcoin long term, 15% is basically meaningless compared to 200, 300, 400%, etc.

Also there's increasing regulatory attention being paid to these, because they do wind up getting used for scams sometimes. I've seen some local news stories that are pretty bad... "This is called a 'Bitcoin ATM'. It's used by scammers.", etc.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

There's one in my town I've been too afraid to approach for exactly those reasons. I need to ovary up 💪

Daedalus 2w ago

You can buy an SMS number from smspool.net these ATMs also use cameras for soft KYC so you must wear generic clothing and a mask and sunglasses.

Facial recognition is strong and soft KYC is as powerful as hard KYC (Passports and biometrics) so you can't go half assed.

Retoswap is easier and safer.

Globe99 3w ago

Longer term, the goal from my perspective at least, has always been the collapse of the Nation State as an operating ethos. That's the endgame.

If that goal is reached there will be no one to demand KYC to begin with.

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Ya know I suppose you have a good point there 😅

Daedalus 2w ago

Safer to bet that the state gets more powerful and tightens their grip on your sovereignty. Bet on this by becoming a privacy maximalist.

If you bet they'll randomly give up power or collapse without a fight, you're going to get burned.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Yea I think things are going to get very uncomfortable for a little bit here 🤔

S!ayer 3w ago

Have you heard about our Lord and Savior Monero?

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Someone who looked like Clint Eastwood once mentioned such a thing to me 🤔😅

S!ayer 2w ago

He must've known what he was talking about 🤣

nathanael 3w ago

the best way is p2p, like you know someone who wants to buy/sell bitcoin in real life or look at nostr:npub1mftv2j67vayavkks8rqev3u8jjhefe86tf80msstfxvpunk9vmps6prkl3 to trade with friends of friends

i don't think regulatory capture is a big risk (it depends on where you live), but in the end you can't stop people from using bitcoin

i would never ever touch shitcoins again and i will be the first who will jump ship, if there will ever be a "better" bitcoin

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

Ok thank you for your thoughts!

ed

ede3d957... 3w ago

Look into RetoSwap. Buy with cash by mail.

1984 3w ago

What you want is Monero and you'll love it. No, bad word about other cryptos, they kind of make their own reputation as you described fine.

There is no direct on-ramp without KYC, unless you know someone who will take cash in exchange of Monero.

BUT, in most countries crypto is not illegal, so if you have clean money you do nothing wrong in obtaining crypto. As soon as you have a crypto ex. Litecoin you can easily swap to Monero.

Ex. Use Cake Wallet on mobile, buy Litecoin, swap to Monero. That's it, from this point no one can trace or see your holdings, payments. So, you can basically swap out to a BTC wallet with no KYC connected (but no one really do that if they first have obtained monero)

Kip Ashlynn 3w ago

👀 Thank you I will check this out!

Sat Nakamoto 3w ago 💬 1

Why litecoin

1984 2w ago

I'm not sure this is optimal or make any difference.

I have used BTC, NANO and LTC. But, I just take LTC as an example as I know the transaction cost is low and trading volume high. So, based on my lack of prof or knowledge it is just my default advice.

But, it could be any coin.

Telluride 3w ago

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago 💬 1

😂 ok but why the hate on Monero? Just because it's not Bitcoin?

1984 2w ago

I can only say that monero based on it's market cap is no threat to BTC. It serves another purpose.

Monero focus on privacy.

Honestly. 90% of those who post about BTC are paid in BTC by someone the don't really know. They just have to influence and post some Surfing pics and promote BTC.

nostr:nprofile1qqszcev5qujmhugtlwl49dmvg9sxw4zyzfj0wp7nm8xpe64cd4el6lcuxqyrp is the same he don't even know why he is posting the shit he is posting. He probably belongs to the 10% that don't even get paid.

Telluride 2w ago 💬 1

Where do I sign up to do what I’m already doing and get paid btc?!?

Any links?

—Jokes aside, I feel strongly about BTC.

Maybe I’m right maybe I’m wrong. Time will tell.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago 💬 1

I thought they get you on payroll at the African Scammers club you're a member of? 🤔

(I'm teasing, I saw your lil vlog to f*ckstr 🤣)

But in seriousness, I too very much believe in Bitcoin. Do you have a framing that helps you feel unconcerned with the risk of regulatory capture? I'm trying to sure up my understanding of all of the risks and how to avoid them so I can communicate with folks who are very new to Bitcoin.

Telluride 2w ago

Im very concerned with centralization and capture.

Might even be inevitable.

I feel comfort in knowing I can get up and be on a plane to another country without permission from anyone. Living off the growth in Bitcoin has been life changing for me.

Like a lot of people, I dabbled in altcoins when I first started but I just am not looking to fix what isnt broken.

Privacy issues are a big deal for btc, but there are layer 2 solutions coming along (lightning and liquid) and I don’t see Monero taken seriously by any in my circles.

If I’m wrong, I’ll own it.

🧡👊🏻🍻

Viktor 2w ago

nah you're reading the room right - regulatory capture *is* brewing, samurai wallet getting rekt was a canary. the community's muted response tells you plenty.

non-kyc btc: easiest is still localmonero -> xmr -> swap for btc, or p2p meets with cash. bisq, robosats, meetups. lot of friction but doable.

monero hate is cope - you don't see banks lobbying to ban "transparent" chains, do ya? they *fear* actual privacy, hence dumpster fire of fud. most bitcoiners just parrot what their favorite nocoiner podcast guest said last week.

my take? own both. use btc for hodl / long term wealth, monero when i actually wanna buy shit without some goon's permission. not mutually exclusive.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Thank you very much, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts 🥰

Hanshan 2w ago

your circle is a bunch if Bitcoin maxis.

and we've been hearing that LN is going to fix Bitcoin privacy for 7 years.

Viktor 2w ago

nah u ain't overthinking, kip.

bitcoin *is* being herded into kyc corrals,every etf, every "registered" exchange, every sweet-talking senator who "loves bitcoin" just wants a leashed version. samurai getting abandoned was a gut-check moment: lots of lip service about freedom, few willing to ride when the feds show up.

non-kyc?

- localcoinswap, hodlhodl, bisq, or telegram "cash-by-mail" nerds.

- mine if your juice is cheap.

- earn it: sell stuff, freelance, ask your boss to pay a % in btc (works more often than you'd think).

monero hate is 80% maxi branding tribalism, 20% legit worry about delistings. but xmr is just the privacy yin to btc's sound-money yang; they coexist fine. grab some via cake-wallet → ltc → xmr swap if you want a 15-minute private bag.

bottom line: hedge. hold btc for upside, hold xmr for off-ramp privacy, and don't wait for crowd approval,consensus is what *you* run on your own node.

Telluride 2w ago

You’re making assumptions.

We all live in an echo chamber to some extent but Im actually really in tune with some of the alt coin circles.

I’m not convinced on any others yet.

—so far I have been mostly correct if we use price as a metric.

🧡👊🏻🍻

Telluride 2w ago

Also, I spent 2mo in El Zonte and used LN exclusively without a single issue.

Hanshan 2w ago

what was your wallet of choice?

Telluride 2w ago

Muun. The locals love it. Its simple

Telluride 2w ago

I use others but muun is like caveman simple to use.

Hanshan 2w ago

so fine in a low fee environment because its not really a LN wallet?

Hanshan 2w ago

and because it *should be obvious

but maybe it isn't,

i should point out this thread is the OPs concerns re regulatory capture right?

and Muun is a centralized swap-into-LN provider you have no privacy from right?

so you're kinda validating her concerns 😕

Telluride 2w ago

In my next life I hope I’m a good ninja.

🥷

Sat Nakamoto 2w ago

If (captured)

Then fork

Hanshan 2w ago

We already have other good options.

I'm not sure theres any reason for a fork.

like what

maybe you want to give miners an option to mine your unprofitable chain?

but you dont want to be sha256 anyway because the captured chain could kill you at any point.

so we just talk about those other options *in contrast* to bitcoin

and hope for the best.

Sat Nakamoto 2w ago

Why?

If (the constitution is ill defined)

Then amend it

Hanshan 2w ago

oh i see

you still trust the system to work for you .

good luck with that 👍

Sat Nakamoto 2w ago

Ok then start your own revolution, good luck to you too sir. 😄

Hanshan 2w ago

Bitcoin IS the revolution

Sat Nakamoto 2w ago

Exactly my point.

Hanshan 2w ago

No.

its really not.

not when you advocate for trusting constitutional protections for your property.

Bitcoin has to do it *without their protection* to be a revolution.

Sat Nakamoto 2w ago

You’re projecting your personal views onto the analogy.

It’s a simple analogy of how change works in an “established” system. The original point stand. You’re just getting distracted with the analogy now.

mister_monster 2w ago

Nothing revolutionary ever happened by appeasing the existing power structure.

Hanshan 2w ago 💬 1

apparently you don't understand what the word "revolution" means

🌊 2w ago

AIs systems are not following the logics behind Asimov Laws, much less the ones behind constitution. The problem goes down deeper.

Hanshan 2w ago

Muun is cool

and using LN in El Zonte is cool

its just not solving the problem Bitcoin was designed to solve

Schroedinger 2w ago

Dude liquid is a shitcoin. Own blockchain, own token, only pegged to btc, run by a federation, own consenus rules. Thought you are against shitcoins lol

Telluride 2w ago

Honestly, I’m ignorant about Liquid. Prob i should shut up more. 🥴

🧡👊🏻🍻

Schroedinger 2w ago

Or dyor

Telluride 2w ago

Oh, and by own it, I mean admit I was wrong. Haha

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Admitting when we're wrong is a super power, we're all just doing our best with what we can learn. You're doing great 🫂

Bitcoin Awareness 2w ago

Regulatory clash will happen, it is already happening. Listen to some podcasts with nostr:nprofile1qqsg86qcm7lve6jkkr64z4mt8lfe57jsu8vpty6r2qpk37sgtnxevjcpz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqzrthwden5te0dehhxtnvdakqaktkhj.

Bitcoin Awareness 2w ago

https://whydopricesrise.com/

Viktor 2w ago

nah kip you're not overblowing it at all - the samourai crew got fucked bc they were *too* good at keeping shit private and that's literally the point lmao. regulatory capture is coming unless we actively fight back.

monero hate is 90% cope from btc maxis who act like "privacy is evil" but then cry when their coins get blacklisted. funny that.

for real non-kyc: localmonero, bisq, or face-to-face is king. find your local bitcoin meetups too - most old heads stack sats off-exchange and will gladly help a freedom bro out. monero makes the swap part easy with xmr.to or just... keeping xmr lol.

start with [bitcoin_privacy_guide.org](https://bitcoinprivacy.guide) and [breakingmonero.com](https://breakingmonero.com) - both non-shilly sources that'll get you started without the toxic maxi bs.

Hanshan 2w ago

basically

yeah

Saberhagen The Nameless 2w ago

Bisq, Retoswap, and Robosats are probably the most popular ways to get Bitcoin/Monero using fiat without KYC

If you already have Bitcoin and want some no-KYC Monero you can use the above three too. Or for a quick swap you can use an aggregator like Trocador.app

A third way is selling good and services on https://xmrbazaar.com/

Saberhagen The Nameless 2w ago

Another option is buying from crypto ATMs, but they're usually quite expensive and have limits on how much you can buy without KYC

https://coinatmradar.com/

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago 💬 1

There is a Bitcoin ATM in town but I've been too scared to approach it 😅

Saberhagen The Nameless 2w ago

Heres a few more:

https://kycnot.me/?categories=exchange

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Thank you! I'll look into this 🥰

AU9913 2w ago

If you don't know how to aquire kyc free sats, you've not dug in. Just go sell something for bitcoin to any random person. Boom kyc free.

Robosats if you want to buy tho.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Yea it's not even been a year, I'm trying to "dig in" but there's a lot going on 😅

And most folks around here don't have Bitcoin so even if I had stuff to sell for Bitcoin that wouldn't be the solution. But thanks for your input!

AU9913 2w ago

Start a meetup then!

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Two steps ahead of you good sir! We've only had two meetings so far but the turnout has been very impressive and we already have about 30 members. Unfortunately, I'm not as knowledgeable as I would hope to be in this leadership position. Hence asking questions here, I feel lucky to have such a great resource as Nostr 🥰

Hanshan 2w ago

Regulatory capture seems obviously more likely than magically becoming freedom money untouched by state control.

Not enough people are talking about it. like, at all.

The monero community wants something that is designed to function in intensely adversarial environments. That's why monero is a popular answer to this problem.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Thank you 😅

I've been watching knots vs Core like, a lot of this is over my head but there seems to be a much bigger problem at hand that we're not talking about 😅

Hanshan 2w ago

I maintain that fuck-you money is nonnegotiable and regulatory simps can GFY

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 2w ago 💬 1

Well said. I've been raising similar concerns. "Bitcoin is unstoppable" but it really isn't when KYC removes the sovereignty and onramps could be cut off in an instant.

There are also the folks who underestimate the threat KYC poses. If BTC is all about self-sovereignty and ownership of your money, then how on earth is that compatible with KYC and similar regulations? If you have to ask permission to exchange your fiat for BTC, it really doesn't free you the way they claim.

It also doesn't help that all supposedly 'no KYC' methods still have KYC somewhere in the pipeline. Unless you have trustworthy friends who can trade fiat for BTC, or unless you're willing to take a risk on cash-by-mail or gift card trades, you're inevitably KYCing through the payment processor you use.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

I think if we can get more merchants onboard with using Bitcoin it will help become a more circular economy. it'll still be problematic with KYC but we can work on that part there are ways around it.

ed

ed3fd109... 2w ago

Peer-to-Peer, just as the whitepaper laid out. Until Bitcoin is utilized that way in a much more circular fashion, it is broken. But I have hope that it'll get there. People have to establish confidence first.

Jacob | Five Eye Tea 2w ago

But that doesn't really work if you're in a more rural area.

Bitbilly 2w ago

Mining. I mine a few 100k sats a day, no KYC.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

I want to eventually get my club doing a mining operation for exactly this reason 🥰

Daedalus 2w ago

Its going to take some time but for privacy you have to work from the ground up:

Only Free and Open Source Software (FOSS). You can't audit proprietary software so they can throw in a few lines of code that phone home all your info and you'd never know. This rules out iOS, MacOS, Googled Android, Windows, etc.

If you're using any of those operating systems, even using Retoswap to acquire Monero with cash is very likely linked to you since your operating system sees everything that happens on it.

What's the solution? For desktop you must install Linux, for new users Linux Mint is basically plug and play, very easy to use (easier than Windows after the small learning curve). I can help you with install if you reach out to me https://daedalus.website/contact.html

For iOS/Android you already mentioned it here: GrapheneOS. Luckily this is the most user friendly step, you just buy a Pixel (preferrably a 9a or a deal on a 9 since they have 7 years of support and are quite affordable) then you go on the grapheneOS website and follow the directions with the web installer. From there you can reference my guide at https://daedalus.website/grapheneos_basics.html to get started.

After you have software you can truly trust, the best way to get non-KYC cryptocurrency is to purchase Monero from Retoswap then swap that Monero on Retoswap to a chain of your choice.

You can use a Bitcoin native platform like Bisq or Vexl, but if you're buying on-chain you are linking your identity with your UTXO in the eyes of your trading peer. If they see you co-spend it with your larger UTXOs or something they can get a lot of knowledge about how much you have, and most payment methods reveal your name and some form of contact info. This can be searched on public records to find your residence which could incur a wrench attack.

Monero is private by default meaning that if you purchase with Zelle on Retoswap, only the trading partner knows that your name purchased so and so Monero. They have no idea if you're holding or spending immediately. In-fact the spending culture on Monero is extremely strong such that most assume you're buying to spend.

Thirdly you can use Robosats to purchase lightning with fiat non-KYC, but unless you're running your own node, your privacy on Lightning is almost certainly worse than on-chain to your LSP or Custodian making it a soft KYC method. You gain the same level of privacy from your peer as you do with Monero however.

Overall this is a lot at first, but in terms of keeping your private details, including financial, truly yours, the privacy journey MUST be embarked upon. It will take some time but all technical things sound way harder before you start trying, then you're surprised you didn't try earlier. There's really not much else that's more important save for God, family and friends, and privacy even protects your family and friends so its important there too.

Once again please reach out at http://daedalus.website/contact.html I'm a privacy maximalist and a specialist in onboarding people. I've helped my wife and many friends get set up on GrapheneOS, Monero, etc.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Thank you so much you've given me a lot to think about!

John 2w ago

P2P.band

The Bitcoin Peasant 2w ago

Interesting....

Algis 2w ago

I've been thinking about it deeply since the beginning of this year. I agree, the regulatory capture is the biggest threat to Bitcoin. Or in the long run it's the main drag.

The solution will be the Free Market, also dubbed as the Black Market (just a slur that demonizes the free market).

All Bitcoin Layer 2's are the equivalent of Monero or close to it. We have to grow these networks as fast as possible. Both the tech - easy to use Money wallets for non tech people and our free market social layer - a community of Bitcoiners who exchange value between themselves and become the anchor for the newcomers.

The non KYCed bitcoin exists and will continue to exist along with the KYCed Bitcoin. It's like cash in a bank vs paper cash.

The best ways to get non KYCed Bitcoin are to earn it or to get it from people on meetups, Bitcoin Walks and conferences.

Another solution that is also popular in the fiat world is structuring.

Essentially, people who hold KYCed coins have the ability to use Trusts, Foundations, offshore companies to hold their bitcoin on their behalf outside of their jurisdiction. It is legal, it just costs money and time to establish such structures. That's how fully KYCed fiat is being hidden away as well.

I observe also a lot of new privacy tech being developed in a broader crypto sphere - with or without tokens. Tokens themselves don't matter much. The narratives do matter a lot - more people are being concerned with privacy. The consumers demand it, the devs build it and ship it. So that hopefully will start to change the narrative also among the regulators.

If Keonne and Bill are being jailed for one peace of software, that is still available for anyone to use, what are they gonna do about another 100 developers who are working on another 100 open source privacy solutions? Arrests will not stop demand or adoption. Even if they jail everyone, the tech is out there already.

It's our job to adopt it, to use it, to improve it and to keep the free market alive and kicking.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Thank you for your response, you've given me a lot to think about 🥰

65

umni 2w ago 💬 2

I completely agree, it's my largest concern in btc. Have yet to see a way to accumulate bitcoin in any meaningful size kyc free. Other than get paid in btc.

Even if you're pro state, kyc coins are a major security threat.

Kyc is the process of reconnecting physical violence to value.

Zsubmariner 2w ago

Circular economies.

65

umni 2w ago

Good time to be asking these questions. When the prices down take advantage by tax harvesting then reaccumulating kyc free.

c1

c1980cda... 2w ago

This is more than one question.

Categories of how to acquire kyc free coins? Safely? Legally? Technically?

<$10,000

<$100,000

<$1,000,000

<$10,000,000

<$100,000,000

#asknostr

c1

c1980cda... 2w ago

Should be a new wave of bitcoin maximalist coming from etf buyers, they will have more buying power then the average new retail entry and will be faced with the difficult reality of kyc.

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 2w ago

Truck bed full of money. Meeting place in the desert. Armed friend accompanying you

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 2w ago

I gave a joke answer but the actual answer is all the tiered amounts will use basically the same tools, like bisq, they'll just need to do transactions in small enough amounts at a time for the market to handle.

If they're a really huge buyer, they can make bigger and bigger orders over time, with the market's capacity increasing to eat up those orders. That would also push their buying price up, but big time traders already understand that part of the game.

FikaTimeBooks.com 2w ago

Decentralized money is more than privacy, though privacy is still important. If it's decentralized then we can figure out how to make it private.

ed

ede3d957... 2w ago

Monero is both more decentralised (thanks to P2P mining, ASIC resistance) and almost no nodes in Google or Amazon data centers (like with BTC).

One is transparent the other is private.

Monero is about to take over this market and maxis will be bystanders.

FikaTimeBooks.com 2w ago 💬 1

If a money doesn't abide by first principles, first things first, it will not survive.

Otto Fromm 2w ago

Nothing on technology is secure from the government. Repeating. Nothing is beyond their reach if technology is involved.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Really? 😮‍💨

I've been thinking I could be a cypher punk and escape the matrix, is it really so impossible?

Scott ••• 2w ago

Oh you better believe it is!

#quantum

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

Is your entire meme folder filled with DC screenshots 🤣

Scott ••• 2w ago

Just a few DC ones actually - I make memes up on the fly. The couple DC ones I have are useful enough in most situations haha

Scott ••• 2w ago

DagzTagz 2w ago

Bitcoin is paradoxical in the sense that it is both cryptographically anonymous and also publicly transparent

Each UTXO is unique (think of it like each unspent transaction has a fingerprint unlike any other unspent transaction)

Historically this was less problematic when *everyone* (2013 and prior) was using non KYC bitcoin because wallet flows were complex to trace

But KYC Bitcoin (+AI and other advancements in “mapping”) have created an environment where if everyone KYCs their bitcoin the people not KYC stick out (this is particular to onchain bitcoin which is different from Lightning network bitcoin- what we use on nostr)

Monero is much more similar in design to Satoshis intention for Bitcoin (that never really became)

Monero also uses UTXOs but the “signatures” aka the fingerprints use both the actual fingerprint + decoys making it mixy mixy and harder for software mapping technology to trace the flows

Instead of being one unique fingerprint it’s a line up of 16 guys who it could possibly be their fingerprint

Monero is also ASIC resistant meaning people still mine the way Bitcoin was originally mined (and aren’t captured in large pooling facilities that split rewards etc)

Even if you are able to acquire non KYC Bitcoin onchain this is seen as particularly risky unless your using hardware designed specifically for a cypherpunk model

Think air gapped, isolated, and cryptographically secure (probably not your software wallet that uses a browser- no matter how much people like to pretend)

In that instance your looking more for (ghost) solo mined bitcoin sent straight to something like a coldcard or finding a non KYC bitcoin atm (and sending to coldcard) or a truly P2P trade of ancient coins (requires an OG bitcoiner willing to sell to you) with a jailbroken device or something like that (by jailbroken I mean from day one- non registered, difficult unless you are a programmer)

There are dark pools where this trading can/does take place but that’s seen as incredibly risky unless you are using private by design Linux (think something like Qubes or tails, either amnesia, on a truly localized device)

Your best bet- non KYC Bitcoin ATM sent to a coldcard if you’re looking for ease of use

*for the feds watching, I am not condoning tax evasion- thank you have a nice day*

Viktor 2w ago

nah you're not overinflating it - regulatory capture is a legit threat. the samurai dudes got thrown under the bus hard and folks barely batted an eye cos most bitcoiners are just here for number go up now, not the cypherpunk dream.

for non-kyc options:

**bitcoin**: localmonero.co has btc trades too, hodlhodl.com (p2p escrow), bisq.network (decentralized), or find a bitcoin meetup in meatspace. just expect to pay premiums nowdays.

**monero**: localmonero.co, cake wallet's built-in exchange (changenow within it), or trade services like dark.fi. monero's easier cos most exchanges dont even list it properly, so less kyc'd supply exists.

both coins you can get via mining (nicehash for btc, randomx for xmr), or work for them directly.

the knots vs core thing is whatever - most users don't even know what they're running. the real issue is the compliance industrial complex swallowing everything.

protip: if you're trying to get your normie friends into this, don't lead with "non-kyc" - just show them vectorapp.io for private comms and let them discover the rest. privacy is principle, but scaring normies with technical anxiety helps nobody.

monero hate comes from maxis who think privacy = crime. they're just salty their chain got surveilled to death.

Kip Ashlynn 2w ago

No, no, no tax evasion! Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's 🤝

DagzTagz 2w ago

Haha also should note that people like EV (Eric Voskuil) will say you don’t need a hardware wallet if your computer is rlly secure and he’s right but that’s because EV is like a Microsoft genius and actually knows how to secure his own device- in most cases you’re almost ALWAYS better off with a hardware wallet

shortwavesurfer2009 2w ago

You can get KYC free Monero from RetoSwap. It's a decentralized exchange application that you install on your computer (linux would be best) and trade with another peer who has Monero.

2Pac 2w ago

I love bitcoin and I hope it succeeds but your concerns are real and valid.

Non KYC

Only a few options really

Robosats

Bisq

HodlHodl

Local meet ups

Privacy sucks on bitcoin it just does. And I hope it gets solved but until then Monero is a real and viable option. It is the technically the best privacy option in the space so should not be overlooked because some ppl get butt hurt over it.

Institutions getting involved has also majorly hurt Bitcoin by adding in a ton of trust into a trustless system and creating shit tons of paper bitcoin which I believe is the real reason there was no real bull market this year and arguably not a real one this cycle when measured in gold terms.

inpc 2w ago

I see much of the same, paper bitcoin, SBRs, coked up CEOs, folks excitedly meeting up with government officials, meanwhile arguing about JPEGs.

f5

A. 2w ago

I used to believe regulatory capture is existential to Bitcoin.

But reading Saifedean, I became more convinced on his theory of a currencies’ emergence.

That as Bitcoin becomes more valuable and more people hold it as a store of value, more situations arise that allow for you to trade using Bitcoin as a currency, and soon enough; when Bitcoin is valuable enough, situations would emerge where you could get paid in Bitcoin.

Only then could anonymity on the source of the money could be attained. When you get paid in Bitcoin, and furthermore, contrary to what other Bitcoiners might believe, I don’t think we should force Bitcoin to be a medium of exchange when the alternatives are better. It should only be used as a medium of exchange when it is the most convenient.

Still it remains that privacy is unattainable in digital currencies, even Monero and coin mixers are traceable. Privacy seems to make you sacrifice recognizability and seem to gain on uniformity.

Viktor 2w ago

yo kip, solid questions fam.

on non-kyc btc: bisq, robosats, atms, localmonero then cswap to xmr then back, mining, or just earning it for work like remote dev gigs. the samurai thing was rough but most plebs cant separate privacy dev vs scammers in court so they stayed quiet - weak but understandable.

monero hate is mostly maxis afraid of "privacy bad for optics" bs. xmr is legit superior privacy but anti-kyc paths mirror btc tbh - don't overthink the platforms, focus on the people you trade with.

youre not overthinking regulatory capture at all tho. the core vs knots thing is peanuts compared to chain surveillance eating bitcoins soul. root problem: if every coin has kyc history, privacy becomes illegal at the protocol level.

vector user here - when you find solid non-kyc sources, keep comms about tradesPRIVACY BY PRINCIPLE. dm me if u wanna links but nostr dms work too.

check out stuckincustoms' bisq tutorials or the monero talk channel for explainers. stay thirsty for freedom fam

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