GM Nostr 🌞
What's the ONE thing you most wish we had on Nostr but doesn't yet exist?
Discussion
Bug-free experience
This doesn't exist in software. Never has, never will.
By bug free I mean bug minimized. Nostr apps are some of the buggiest I’ve used
I’m not blaming devs or anything. Maybe it’s just the nature of distributed software.
-There’s an average of less than one dev per app
-VC funding and a team is an exception, not a rule (Nos social, Primal, and ??)
-Median nostr dev is unfunded
-Comparison is BigCo with billions of USD and thousands of devs, designers, product people and a decade head start
-All BigCo product(s) are either stand-alone single app, or a mostly in-company suite of products
-nostr has a unique permissionless nature - imagine the email protocol having 99 NIPs!
For single app bugs report to the app devs with nostr, or with github issues.
For multi-app bugs there is the #nostrability https://github.com/nostrability/nostrability/issues
#induecourse
Yep and I’m not blaming the devs but it’s still the current experience. Getting better.
Mastodon stuff is pretty stable, but Nostr is a lot more radical and brave from a technology standpoint. Much of it goes against the whole infrastructure of everything that has been built in the past 20 years of computers and the internet.
I am hitting all kinds of walls. Programming languages, databases, even webservers like Nginx, go against the grain of Nostr.
The next generation of Nostr, if it succeeds, cannot be built on top of what we have today. The developers of today's apps need to mend Nostr into the fabric of infrastructure by creating libraries and tools that make it easier to build on solid foundation.
I am finding myself pushing forward basic infrastructure more than anything.
Yeah, strong core libraries across many languages and platforms would aid a lot. Then let people go ham with their clients.
How close to that are we, I have seen many libraries for Nostr in many languages, or at least many relay implementations, I am unsure about client side libraries.
No, it's because every dev wants to start their simple social app with a javascript framework that has some massive scaffolding... Overcomplicated for no reason but every "dev" learns react before they learn javascript now.
I think this is accurate. Frameworks can help but usually add SOOOO much more complexity than needed for most projects.
Especially for nostr. The best app experiences usually focus on a handfull of NIPs instead of trying to implement every single one. Devs need to stop adding more when what they have still needs work. I understand how tempting it is though when you have a lot of new stuff being added every day. It's the nature of an open protocol. Unfortunately, this leads to apps with a lot of buggy features instead of apps with few features that are bug free. #Amethyst being the exception. nostr:npub1gcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqlfnj5z being the exception. #amethyst is kind of a super app and I feel bad for apple users that can't experience it.
decent DM implementations
nobody uses DMs because everyone is being ridiculous about the metadata leak issue and so nobody is implementing the clients properly which means nobody wants to use them, and around in a circle it goes
i figured you'd appreciate this one 😛
Absolutely! Can't wait to have this as well.
stillwaiting.jpg on just actual auth support, let alone proper gating of access to privileged messages like DMs
What's "proper gating" ?
I think he means that relays would auth you before they would respond to any request for DM or gift-wrap event kinds.
Yes, this part I got 💹 .
Is there more gating that he is / you are imagining?
currently most relays just give you everything if you send a filter with only kind 4, 1059, 1060 and many clients add tags when you mention other users that are visible in the clear (wtf?) this is why nostr:npub1m4ny6hjqzepn4rxknuq94c2gpqzr29ufkkw7ttcxyak7v43n6vvsajc2jl is getting people seeing messages that appear to be from her when they have actually just got her npub tagged!
and only send you ones that contain the authed npub
also i'm sure you realise this means that sent messages is a problem with giftwraps, since only the recipient appears in them
storing state in application specific data blobs would help there
Lol, this sort of stuff makes me question the need for GiftWraps every time 😉.
Simple solution, maybe not the best, but you can just send a copy to yourself as well?
Explain why this is an issue? Of course the recipient has to show up in the tags of the GW event. But that's the only data in the clear.
how does your client recognise you as the author when the npub in the event is not yours?
It doesn't need to.
then you can't read your sent messages either
and that's not even covering the fact that the secret key used in the encryption is a one shot and you don't store it so you couldn't even decrypt it if you only kept the npub on record
i think "giftwrap" is a dumb expression, because really it's a one shot secret key, the public key is the recipient's, and because of ECDH they can decrypt it because they know the secret to it, and the pubkey you generated one off
it should be called a one-shot encryption, i'd be willing to bet that there is even a proper term for it in encryption programming theory
https://github.com/indra-labs/indra contains code i wrote that extensively uses one-shot keys to wrap messages in multiple layers in the same way as it is done with lightning payments, but for carrying actual network packets
Ah ok - we're focusing on different things here. I think GWs are useful for wrapping messages in a disposable cover that allows you to obfuscate the message metadata over the wire. This is actually very valuable but isn't a solution to everything.
Proper encryption of DMs and Group messages is going to require clients to store the actual decrypted message contents (in an encrypted way locally).
It fundamentally isn't possible to build a messaging system that provides strong forward and post-compromise security, allows for asynchronous messaging via decentralized data stores, and also allows any client application to rebuild the full conversation history at any point. They are just incompatible goals. This is why, when you connect a new device on signal, the new device doesn't get the history of the conversation it's in. Just new messages from that point forward.
From your point of view, would you rather give up something on the other side in order to have that rebuildable conversation history?
when there is a repository storing data for you, you can have cross-installation state, what's the argument against using this part of the relay architecture? redundancy already easy to add just by storing it on other relays, it's encrypted to your own secret so it's not able to be breached by cryptanalysis, and the metadata is mostly worthless except to catch your activity cycle perhaps, and with auth those events can be restricted from non-privileged access and with cache management, a history and a limit on the number of historical versions
I'd thought about that some but then thought that it'd be better to leave it for now but you're right, as long as we had good encryption that was based on more than just your private key (additional password perhaps) and we had relays that wouldn't allow others to query for these backup blobs then yes, we could store those on relays and other clients could use those to backfill conversation data and other state.
Sounds like a NIP for another day though. It's more general than DMs and Group messages, for sure.
yeah, there is also the matter of services that do reverse proxy/vpn for you so you can run relays on your client PC from anywhere you are online that enables users to directly drop messages in your personal cache relay
this is unfortunately the key problem with the internet, and has been forever, and why i doubt they will ever fully deploy IPv6 - you wouldn't need third parties to run servers then... and add a decentralised name resolution service and none of those makeshifts would be required, people could communicate privately and without any means of disrupting it without massively disrupting the internet
Storing state in Nostr is a recipe for disaster. You'll never be able to keep that state synced properly across relays.
Minigames play against other 💡
I gotta have more cowbell!!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NHTe2_b8uEA&pp=ygUMTW9yZSBjb3diZWxs
A cost of 1 sat to post a note. Like Stacker News.
I guess any client could require this (or require PoW on notes to show them). I think it would come down to having an exceptional UX for people to actually move over to using that client though.
POW is a a bit finicky. The right amount will post a note effortlessly, thus defeating the purpose. And an increased amount can be an annoying wait. That’s at least been my experience on snort
Yup. Very hard to execute on this one.
i wish people would give up the fantasy of PoW working for anything other than bitcoin
why else do you think all the shitcoins went PoS? the miners killed them
who would have the greatest economic interest in mining for PoW thresholds? spammers before you know it there will be asics to generate events with high PoW scores and nobody who was stupid enough to think it would work will get a word in edgewise
NIP-29 Communities will all have their own price lists.
Pay to write a note could be a relay thing. Instead of a pre-pay or subscription like nostr wine, it’s V4V
cc nostr:npub149p5act9a5qm9p47elp8w8h3wpwn2d7s2xecw2ygnrxqp4wgsklq9g722q
True, pay per upload… Bitstream is pay per download.
I wonder if people would rather pay per upload than pay $20 a month. I have a feeling it’s too much mental costs, but maybe the UX of zaps are changing that.
The mental cost of pay per use is lower.
Subscription hell is worse on Bitcoin and Nostr.
Writing on that right now.
Hey, I’ll just be happy if users pay relays… whether it’s monthly or per use. 😆
I suppose if someone already has bitcoin and it’s only a few cents, maybe that is less intimidating than committing to an entire monthly payment. If you barely use it that month, you might waste money.
What is subscription hell exactly? Do you mean the pref of that business model by so many?
🍿
Yup, having to handle an endless list of time-based subscriptions for things that aren't time-based.
Instead of just paying for stuff in the moment (without friction!).
Yeah gotcha.
While i agree - and it definitely feels a bit like a trap - it’s also not that hard to unsub. and some people prob prefer not paying a lump sum.
Not sure if it’s really that big an issue or not... I guess it’s being used because it works.. would be good at minimum to have to option for one off purchase and competition around these models more than anything
Why not offer both 🤷♂️
Could do a monthly payment rate-limited at the same price, or pay per post.
Both can be priced in Sats per post.
👇 When the Relay = the Community 👇
https://cdn.satellite.earth/05835d486d460915323c195a13f3b3fb8e7e4fa6ed2d34e0db7a5926d8a86edf.mov
Did you create this UX prototype? If so, do you take contract work for this type of thing?
Just found your site https://www.nielliesmons.com/
1. Yes
2. Right now, no.
I think this would be disastrous for onboarding a total noob on 0sats, unless a client gave some sats free for opening a wallet.
Still not keen on that idea in general. Even PoW posting is horrible on mobile tbh
Being able to delete things
You can in most clients... I'm guessing you mean actually having a guarantee of sorts that the event is deleted on EVERY relay?
Yes.
Not gonna happen. Relays aren't yours, they're someone else's. You don't get to dictate how their machine works.
I don't mean this to be adversarial. It's actually a good thing. If this was somehow enforced, Nostr would cease to be an opt-in protocol and would start to be something more like a global consensus blockchain, and that is undesirable.
If you _do_ prefer a consensus-based social network, those are already out there.
DMs and groups, they are the easiest way to do onboarding. But they are coming!
Yes! Can't wait to get this out there and widely implemented.
The edit/delete option for posts
Gallery
Working clients, or at least clients that work semi predictably
Non-twitter usecases
Relay.tools API and guerilla implementation of client interoperability with said API
oh, this #[4]
Imagine if we could create custom clients by tapping into your API to pull-and-display a very specific subset. 🤩
i wonder how hard it would be to do that... i mean, "plugin" is more or less a native feature in browser javascript engines, should be possible to have a config where you can have a baseline that is just the thing that enables loading of the other things
i know that nostrudel has a heap of this kind of optional things in it, probably the code needed is already done, just a matter of building the on/off switches and moving more of the codebase inside these units
Maybe. I want the controls in relay.tools, tho.
so for white label type thing... you could also have custom themes and artwork and such as well
Ohhh... Customized relay landing pages. Like MySpace. 🤩
well i'm just saying that it's the same thing whether it's accessible in the interface but if it's in the deploy side it's more like a white label
Well, people could go there and poke around my relay. My relays are all sort of special...
The landing page for relaytools relays are about to get a lot cooler 😎 at least, I think so 💎🌊 hehee.
But yes, landing page is a huge aspect of my vision of what relays should be like.
there is a relay interface viewer in nostrudel on the relay pages, it would be cool if it worked with that
Cool, I'll check it out.. 🤔 I like the nostrudel relay stuff 💎
The API exists. I have documented some of it with golang code in a branch (it manages the allow list) I'd be curious what usage of the API you are thinking would be nice.
Well, we'll be out with Alexandria, soon, and that should only show a subset of GitCitadel (long-form, wiki, and eBooks). And then we want to fork off that to create Biblestr (only Bibles and such). So, we would have to maybe query for labels, so that we could tag the stuff that should show up where, as a curation.
Nobody currently allows for manual curation on the model/controller end, but it's essential for communities and groups. Otherwise, everyone has to use the same client.
Proper forums/communities
I know I've already said one lol.
But I also think Feeds, I think we're getting there,.I'm aware of the DVMs. But bluesky has actually done them really well, and they work smoothly. More gooder Feeds:) :)
THE crossplatform onboarding client for the average person. One you can recommend without worrying.
Went through all of them and there's no good one. Always recommended primal but their web version has some major errors while making an account.
from far my biggest struggle as i came into the ecosystem. as a user i want to do stuff on my phone, and find it when i later connect from my laptop. primal is the only crossplatform reliable client to my knowledge. big nostr challenge it seems.
Drafts! Is there a client that lets you save drafts like Twitter?
Primal does.
Also amethyst
As does #amethyst
so does amethyst
Amethyst
DMs and groups.
A slack/discord killer.
wish we have 18 million users
GM Jeff
OF killer
Push notifications. Clients should register for push notifications optionally at their preferred service and give their trusted inbox relay a push URL along with settings what they want to get push messages for.
Good morning, maybe a group type function that you could make notes that are specific to only those in the group or on a specific group platform
Communities and Group chats already exist, unless you mean something else?
Public communities exist. But there isn't a strongly secure version of communities (group chats) yet. I'm working on it.
I’ve played a little with communities on nostrudel, but anything I post goes global, not to just the community… without there being context, it just looks like gibberish and has got me replies of the same
A bigger push/platform/shared-library that would make it easier for developers across Nostr to implement NIPs and stay up-to-date on those.
The problem I see something like this solving is as follows.
I solely use Amber (NIP46) to sign events for me because I find it to be so far the most secure and also convenient method in my threat-model. So many clients are yet to implement or even announce plans to do so.
Worse yet, are encrypted DMs. 0xchat and Amethyst work pretty well together, where Amethyst can do older less-secure DMs, but can also read/write encrypted DMs which 0xchat can also do, but the moment I'm on Desktop/Web browser that falls apart, there is no convergence as far as encrypted DMs (something like NIP44) go, only less-secure ones.
So many amazing ideas and thoughtfulness coming out of this thread! Please repost it so we can keep the feedback flowing.
nostr:note1f8m88el5uwp7q49tjc5qqs2kpvygs72qdae2rygvev0ltrfda5hq3fdhan
nostr nets inside of every client. No need to go on a website. And no bugs
Edit button.
that does exist. Unfortunately, only a few clients support it.... This was my request. That more clients update to support it.
I know some aren't keen but I make so many typos it's embarrassing!
No doubt someone will moan about my time preference or my stupidity but it is what it is, I just want to fix typos haha.
Same. I do it ALL the time on Amethyst. It's a shame those edits are not carried across to most other clients.
A browser extension that doesn’t require me to enter the nsec on my computer.
Instead, I want it to communicate with my phone, and the phone would sign/decrypt events after my approval (smartphones are generally better in keeping secrets because apps can’t easily access other apps’ files & memory).
Easy Normie experience 😅
Good morning a conglomerate of solo miners working on the nostr pool refilling our LN wallets with the rewards from our hashing
EBay, Airbnb and Uber would be nice imo...
have you checked shopstr for an ebay-like client?
Most clients supporting delete/edit but really only like one does.
This. Can barely even delete off my own relays. 😂
A non techie way to build and maintain relays with all the possible features! This is in my head for so long but I wonder if that’s the way we’re trying to go.
So far how I understand relays it should be possible for everyone to create and maintain one.
Or do we expect that instead for example 1 out of 100 people have a server (like meta) to 10 out of 100? Or is at least 90 out of 100 the goal?
Happy reading your thoughts on this.
Let people build and maintain Communities and you will see them handle the Relays, Blossom servers, etc (that the Community is built on) as a byproduct.
Running a relay is really easy. On TrueNAS you don't even need to go beyond the WebUI (at least I think). Local relay for you on your own network is not a problem even for non technical person. The trouble in my eyes is maintaining a public relay. Spam, moderation, rate limiting, illegal stuff, etc...
This could encourage people to care about where their stuff is saved. Getting in touch with relays really made me think. I like the idea of self hosting, I’m planning to get a NAS system. That’s just not the average. Not everyone got the capacity. And as soon as you need the terminal it’s getting difficult for non techies. But I trust Nostr that we will find a suitable solution :)
Oh yeah exactly. That’s truly a problem. Maybe AI will be helpful in the future to filter out the stuff nobody asking for.
Hear you loud and clear and working on it.
Except going to do it without the "maintenance" part. I prefer "one click to get a relay and it runs forever and you never have to think about it again".
Yes! I agree with this. I’m actually reading up on how to set up a relay to help with the decentralization of relays. If the relays become centralized then I fear that it would be no different than other social media.
I found I can set one up with the nostr relay extension in lnbits but I need to set up a domain which I’m working on.
MS Teams / slack competitor. Shared calendars, productivity apps. Things that entrepreneurs could use for free to get a business started more easily.
HD accounts
This exists. NIP-06
It's just that no client really uses/supports them yet.
and it's really weird that they don't
also that's not really HD, that's just a mnemonic seed for a key
HD would be deriving chains out of them by hashing the secret with paths
OMG....
Buy why would no client implement this?
What's your use case for it? To have a single seed that secures a master key and then create lots of different accounts that you'd use side-by-side?
Actually I'd like to have different accounts for different things. Some things are one time things. But if course it's already possible to have throwaway accounts.
Others are more constant and it would be ok to be tied to an IRL id. For exsmple project or company accounts. Again this could all be seoerate npubs. For other things I want an anonymous account with some reputation.
So maybe it's ease of nsec management and recoverability.
Search Indexes with a common API and clients that leverage them.
At a trivial level, I want what Twitter/X offered in its Advanced search.
E.g. search for all posts by `JeffG` made between `2023-10-01` and `2023-12-31` that contain the phrase `Japan`
and then filter it further by community posts
💯
https://noogle.lol/ does this by leveraging kind 5302 DVM events. Other clients could as well.
Simplicity
private group chats to EOL whatsapp telegram and signal
Working on it! https://habla.news/u/jeffg.fyi/1719562889267
Time machine.
GM
Search functionality
GM
notifications
markdown support on all clients
Key signing for native mobile clients.
Hyperlinks
Deleting my old Postings / Events
Gm
Btc exchanges. Is it possible?
Save note to drafts
A client feature to target your own server for media upload. I think I read a NIP doe this, but I can't remember which one it is.
Site: marketplace for bitorrent files. There are 3 parties: file providers (seeders), file downloaders (leechers), and 'finders'(servers that connect the former two). Providers and finders should be paid, per unit of downloads, by the downloaders. Nostr can provide the network. ecash and lightning can provide the payment mechanisms.
Relay list with selection and simple pay option on every client and list saved in some way so when using different client, auto populates
Site: Network for sharing and funding 'citizen science'. People can follow templates to conduct experiments. People can share results to see if they can replicate results, or contradict them. Hypothesis about the findings can be shared as well. This can apply to all empirical things.
This is why we want to integrated LaTeX, PlantUML and etc. into 30041s events.
BLOCK function!!!!
Tutorial or guide to complex and essential things, like connect to relays, set up lightning wallet, what are nips, to publish videos, etc.
Oh, and the most addictive social media function: 24h stories (not reels)
Contratos inteligentes
*tutoriales,manuales o por lo menos guías sobre los servicios que se van implementando ...a veces son difíciles de entender para que sirven ,o no se puede aprovechar todas sus potencialidades.
*Nuevas comunidades , en otros idiomas además de ingles y no tan nicho como btc,techo dev ...falta algo que traiga más gente 🤷🏼♂️..no sé que podría ser ¿?
Nimiq zaps. https://www.nimiq.com/
Look Jeff I think I would like to have something like a profile… a place to land into the ecosystem, where I can see my relays and have quick access to my favorite clients… and also, have information about my data and activity.
In there I would have all MY #Nostr content and identity.
Like my central hub…
Does that make sense?
Key rotation
An actual note taking app.
It's literally in the name! xD
Notes and ToDo's, in fact. Would love both.
sounds simple. what are your requirements, I could create it.
- Folders
- Notes
* Tags (ie. status or alike)
- ToDo lists
* Hide checked notes, delete them by end of day
and your notes and to-dos should be visible to anyone on the same relay?
or why do you want it on Nostr instead of any of the existing solutions?
One relay -> many possibilities. That's why. I have tried many note taking and ToDo apps and they all required some damn janky stuff. But, setting up strfry or any other relay is a piece of cake. So why not reuse what already exists?
No, only to myself. :)
But on all my devices that use the same relays.
KEY ROTATION
The ability to recognize reposting and filter it out. Nostr is mostly a soap box for a few big bitcoiner talking heads (proof is in the trends) and then a bunch of reposter bros. The cirlce jerk of folks yelling "nostr is awesome" and trying to one up eachother with "enlightening" quips to the choir is exhausting. There is still more meaningful market news and content on the tweeters unfortunately.
Non kyc Weed delivery
And @mostro
Migrate N0str p0sts as csv file 2 new PubKey & Markd0wn.
Napster 2.0
GIFS!
I’ll say it, a good algorithm feed
I keep seeing lyn alden post every times. Sometimes, I feel its like elon musk on twitter; show up every where.
All I want for Christmas is for damus users to get proper relay lists nip65 kind 10002. And proper private inbox support nip17 kind 10050. I don't even use damus, but my customers and friends do and this cripples my ability to talk to them. Very hard for me to reach people, sometimes I feel like the network is completely segmented. Just like apple did with iMessage. Please will..
isolating apple users from the rest of the dirty plebs is part of their cult-driven mind control marketing system
it was the original form of the walled garden before there was app stores
apple deliberately makes this air of superiority a part of being an apple user as part of their method of catching and holding people as lifetime customers
and because it is brainwashing, it is the most offensive possible thing to say to an apple user, there's all these other reasons why they keep buying them, and they seem oblivious to the fact that they spend half their time complaining about how their devices are nerfed because you can't do things with them that you can do with android or windows or linux
brainwashing, apple's main business is brainwashing, and second after that is making shiny artifacts, and third is actual computer hardware, and software is the last thing on their mind
A client that shows posts in a cascading style grid layout, the bigger your screen the more posts you see.
Simplex type of thing dm integration - P2P #sat deals
Robust topical communities like are found on Reddit and Facebook.