Is it possible to be respectful of people who suffer from gender dysphoria without redefining everything in society?
Does this pregnant man 🫃🏼 emoji help or hurt people?
Should we be so inclusive we allow men in women's sports where they absolutely dominate?
Or women's prisons were they rape and impregnate?
Maybe on Nostr we can have a civil discussion about it without getting banned by woke twitter moderators...
I think there's definitely a way to be respectful and safe for people on both sides of the debate. The 'clutch the pearls' factor of entrenched perspectives isn't helpful imo.
yes I can be respectful to people with mental problems
No much meaning and too much free time, people do not understand what's really important.
Everybody should just let everyone else live their live and think for themself.
a truly libertarian answer, love to see it!
I think _most_ people are, TBH. However, the conflict arises when one is asked to change one's language to accommodate others, or accept unfair sports competition to accommodate others, or accept fearful prison conditions to accommodate others, etc. A philosophy of 'live & let-live' doesn't really cover these situations.
In theory, we would not get to those cases with the "Live and let live" ideology. (I would hope)
However let's see your examples, I understand what you are saying, let's see what could be done.
- I think that regarding the language issue, nobody is gonna change my language because I would not like to have connections with people who would impose me to do that
- Regarding the sport competition I would change the sport if needed
- Regarding the prison a whole different story, I'm not going to express there, I don't know the argument enough
My point is that now they are living out of attention, attention that I'm not going to give them, without it, there would not be so much FOMO around those arguments.
This is what free speech looks like.
We need to be able to civilly discuss societal issues without censorship, threats and cancelation.
Afterall, this is a completely rational position!
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I wonder how much of an issue this actually is for everyday ppl. I’ve never run into it in my personal life nor do I know anyone it has affected.
Feels like a nice talking point for some folks in the media to get everyone all hopped up about.
I get there are some small percent of edge cases to be dealt with, but does this actually matter or is it just distraction from the real problems that the govt/media don’t want you to focus on.
Here's one that comes up for a lot of people I know:
Job requires you to list your pronouns in your email signature.
Cool or not cool?
My pronoun is cool.......thanks for asking😎
all these new pronouns are great because I can easily identify who to avoid, that is, anyone using them
gender ideology is a dangerous cult
Have you been on a college campus in the last few years? This generation of 20-somethings has fully adopted it. It breaks my brain to use the word “they” as a singular pronoun, but I don’t think it’s ever going back.
if you’re asking if I’ve noticed that mental illness is rampant, yes I’ve noticed 😅
I think that’s probably too dismissive of a cultural shift. Every generation makes a hard break from the past that the previous generation can’t come to terms with. You can read about that in The Fourth Turning. I spend a lot of time with teenagers and I see it firsthand, and it’s I don’t think it’s a phenomenon that can just be labeled an illness. Personally, I take a live-and-let live approach, but I do think parents who allow their kids to take hormone therapy are the ones who need mental health intervention the most.
Not a big fan of the Fourth Turning. I guess we could view what I consider an epidemic of mental illness as a cultural shift, but that’s even more sad. It’s just another big Asch experiment. Agree with you about hormone therapy. Parents who allow chemical castration should not be parents.
I’m not qualified to make diagnoses but my real fear is that most “mental health professionals” probably aren’t either.
of course, most of psychiatry is scam
My ex-wife’s parents are both therapists and whoo boy do I have stories that can only be told at a bar.
could all of the drugs peddled by pseudoscientist psychiatrists over the last few decades have lead to an epidemic of mental health issues..?
I’d very much like to see some actual science on that.
you’ll likely have to wait until pharma is decoupled from the money printer
Perhaps, look at the case of Lindsay Clancy. She was on 13 different psychiatric medications and she still killed all three of her children and tried to kill herself. She was in therapy several times a week.
sad. I haven’t heard about this. I guess that’s what happens when you don’t watch the news or use Twitter lol
OMG that’s horrific. 😰
It's terribly sad. I survived the same mental illness she had, without hurting anyone. but meds were not the cure for me.
The only reason I've heard about it is because I had had the same mental illness that she had when my son was 4 months old. Fortunately I got better and didn't hurt anyone. The natural route was more effective for me in getting better than medication.
Therapy is a for-profit business it is in their best interest for you to stay unwell. The only exception I think is if a therapist writes books that are freely available and is not telling you to continually come back to their office. I have gotten a lot out of some good therapy books.
Freemium services are a great business model! If their public material is good, that should drive more paying customers. ⚡🔥💎
If you don't need therapy then, don't pay for it. I have gotten a lot of good out of certain books specifically ones talking about cognitive behavioral therapy. I'm not going to knock those authors transformed and greatly improved my life. You remind me of the metal heads, Jake. They tend to be very anti "getting help". They think it's a sign of weakness if someone admits they have a problem and or gets any sort of professional help for mental illness. Thinking too far that direction is toxic, just like thinking too far any direction is toxic. Extremism in all its forms is the epitome of evil.
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I’d rather be fired than cuck to that nonsense
I haven’t encountered that and while I personally don’t like it, if I want to be employed there and that is their policy then I’d have to adhere to it.
I don’t like giving them my passport, social security number, bank account info, etc.. either, it’s all enough for even a junior HR employee to easily steal my identity.
But alas, I didn’t win that battle, but Bitcoin does solve this… eventually.
Would rather be able to chose if I do or don’t. Others can decide for themselves.
The real question is if I wanted to make my pronouns ‘’m’lord” or “m’liege” and that was a problem, is that fair?
Probably a little bit of both, in my experience. There’s definitely an appropriate way to treat those that do come into your life: be kind. Treat them as individuals, no matter how many they say they are.
Yes that's easy to say, but suppose that boy now wants to change in the women's change room with your daughter, how do you feel about that? Just treat them as an individual and go with it?
😂That was kind of my point. It’s not kind to treat someone as something they are not, nor according to a collective label, or the applied traits of another.
And yes, ofc you should protect your daughter and can be wary of any potential threat, without necessarily acting preeminently against it, thereby avoiding social and legal issues of acting as the aggressor.
Again, dealing with edge cases that I doubt 99.99% of the population deals with. You may hear about it on the ‘news’, but unlikely that you’re telling me a story from your personal experience.
With that said, I’d imagine there is some way to deal with it in a way that is kind to most folks. Personally I think if one has special needs/accommodations the school can try to come up with a creative solution. Like this particular person can change in the teachers restroom or an empty classroom or an empty office?
But I don’t think you and I (or politicians)have to solve this edge case for the country, probably should be handled by folks on the front line in a compassionate way. They already handle exceptions all the time, this isn’t beyond them.
It's rampant now with 25% of kids identifying as queer and/or gender non-conforming in middle school...
It should be an edge case but it's trendy now for young people and very common.
They even put litter boxes in some universities to accomodate people who identify as furries?
At the risk of sounding harsh here and I want to preface this by saying that I in no way mean to offend anyone…
What someone chooses to identify as, is their business. However, it is in no way anyone else’s responsibility to acknowledge or accommodate that.
If you have male genitalia you use the men’s room regardless of what you “feel” you identify as. Same goes for female genitalia.
I believe in personal rights. Like I should be able to identify as anything I want. I should be able to identify as an Apache helicopter if I choose to.
Suppose I look like a drop dead gorgeous woman but have male genitalia. Every time I go into a guys bathroom I get cat called, over and over and over. Should I get to go into the girls bathroom? Not my fault how I look.
I agree with your choice to have personal rights to identify with anything you want.
If you have male genitalia you use the men’s room.
In life we don’t often get to have our cake and eat it to, you choose to identify as a woman there are negatives that come with it. Such as being catcalled. Nothing in life is a panacea.
This creates a caste of people who will always be subjugated. ‘Deal with it’? Not for that. Why can’t there be a solution that works like having a single bathroom that anyone can use? Not hard to implement that.
I think that would be a good solution. A single bathroom open to anyone that they could use privately. And not difficult to implement. (Potentially)
The rub is it costs money. People hate spending money on things they don’t personally benefit from.
This is true. And in some cases, it may be impossible. Pretend you are a small business owner of a restaurant. You are limited in what you can do by budget and physical space. So requiring compliance to such a thing could have the unintended consequence of bankrupting small business owners unable to comply.
I’ve previously been an investor in a
Few nyc restaurants. And every table you can fit in a space you need to as margins are tight.
You have the weigh personal and property rights. For NYC restaurants maybe you need to make seats wheelchair accessible. Do you side with people with disabilities or small business owners?
Here’s the thing for me: I tend to side with those who are marginalized. I’ve been marginalized before. It’s lonely in that corner, things are stacked against you. I would side with the disabled people, and try to make rules about it fair but accepting.
These are not mutually exclusive. It’s better for both if the business is able to remain open, EVEN if I (the disabled) am not able to personally attend this specific instance. My friends and neighbors will have jobs, possibly me indirectly even, and takeout will still be available to me.
More importantly, incompatibility with the state-designed plastic solution doesn’t mean that there is no other solution pursued, innovated, and implemented, dare I say probably a better one.
Agreed. Finding that balance is tough, not one size fits all. Unfortunately there’s likely someone who experiences hardships no matter what the solution. To me it should be the non-marginalized group. But that’s just me.
Well every restaurant has to be ADA compliant or you won’t get a COA.
Personally, I’ve never felt the world owed me anything. And the harsh reality is, it doesn’t.
I have no problem with people choosing to be who they want to be. But requiring others to go along with it is a bridge too far imho.
What happens if others won’t let you chose who you want to be? You looking different is somehow ‘requiring’ others to go along with it? This is a friction point.
Never worry about the others. Live your life.
Much of who you are is determined by your biology and you don't get the choice though, right?
Nature/nurture is usually 50/50. Sex is biological and gender is socially constructed. That’s just the definition of those categories. Identity is a blend of both.
No, that’s kinda the point. Nobody can take your will from you. (see: Epictetus, etc. ancient Stoics)
You only control four things: opinion, pursuit, aversion, desire. “Or in a word… everything of your own doing.”
Whatever the external results (which might inform the use of all of the above) you still are who you choose to be.
That doesn’t mean anything goes: that means everything BUT that one thing can and will be taken from you, even if it SHOULD be, in some sense, respected by society.
Most places (at least in my localities and experience) especially local institutions like schools and churches, already have some individual restrooms available for families (diaper-changing) and the handicapped. Implicitly this would already be available for other unique situations,
are you saying they’re not superfluous enough, or that some whole-new fourth category should be made?
Personally I’m not. I think the existing ones you reference which are open to all should do the trick.
For one… Because as someone who has been “one of those people” for most of life, I’m telling you those kinds of solutions don’t work and tend to make things worse. I don’t wanna be called out, nor fit in arbitrarily. I want to make my own choices and live my own life. No matter the society or community or era of history, there’s always been a possibility of persecution* in response to my choices. Only I can make them, w the possibility of changing minds and worlds, but irregardless, keeping my wits and will about me and living virtuously.
I.e. Expect all hurt and blame from oneself. Be invincible.
For two… that’s impractical. For this specific issue, or all of the category, much less all within society.
Again, most people might be initially uncomfortable in the boys locker room.. you get over it, learn the way of things, what to avoid, where to go, etc.
If every one got a new private room for every possible discomfort, that’s all there would ever be, and that’d be a looooot of rooms.
You’re better off, and I mean that as genuinely as possible, working through this on your own and thereby being prepared for the multitude of similar issues you’ll encounter in society throughout your life.
I’m not saying there can/could never be such a thing, just that as earlier post mentioned, it’s more of a niche, local, unique solution as completely necessary. And that this is the wrong reason and context to implement an absolute solution.
The ‘work through it’ approach is good for some but there are many (many) who don’t have the ability to do that. It’s not that they can’t, it’s that they’ve got things systematically against them which is hard to fight against. There are many that need support in order to not be completely cast aside. This is why I tend to fight for the people who can’t fight for themselves. 45% of queer people have considered suicide at some point in their life. Everyone else it’s 9%. That’s _staggering_.
That’s a rather bizarre, almost realistically-inconceivable hypothetical, but while presuming it to be true, this is yet another (if basically all) societal problem that would be solved with a better principle of private property*, than some vague unreal sense of public-ownership.
Now if 👁 was in that scenario, I would probably do I what would and have in any other uncomfortable situation: either learn to bear it, and become a better person by it, or if necessary for practical or safety reasons, pursue the simplest alternative.
Changing in the women’s bathroom would DEEEEEFinitely not be that… in fact that’d be way more uncomfortable.
*(this is basically the point of private property. The results of your work doesn’t effect mine, your choices are separate from mine, and so on. Better incentives that way, better opportunity to avoid conflict.)
It’s a tough question and the rise of property rights has been more prevalent in modern times than personal rights used to be (civil rights/suffrage etc). Why can’t there be a single bathroom solution that anyone can use to help be a win win?
I remember hearing of the litter-box thing, and I’m 90% certain that was a troll video that was taken by many as real news. 😅😂 Beware the satire, it’s meant to make you more aware and slower to judgement, not to confuse you or cloud reality.
You said the word: trendy. And going against what is trendy means social cancelation in today's world — and nobody wants that.
I do believe this is a fair point for those in the public light, and some local social situations, but I’ve also seen its effects overestimated and applied to localities where its clearly irrelevant, and there is no trend or concern whatsoever.
Be wary to be the more reasonable party — not just in position but in manner as well.
Perhaps even, in approaching every individual interaction with humility, reasoning towards truth along with the your associates, you might not only avoid malevolent agitation, but even show them an inkling or glimpse of light, of reality that they’ve been starving for.
I can tell you for a fact this is a completely made up %, not even close. There have never been litter boxes in schools, also completely made up.
Agreed, have to say tho… I have completely lost track of who is responding to who in this thread.
Maybe we can use @Pubs?
or make a group chat in Session, if y’all wanna continue the conversation in more depth🤷♂️
Maybe it’s similar to how more ppl identify as homosexual now that it’s generally accepted in the US vs the number of ppl who may in a repressive society like Iran.
Perhaps these ppl always existed but needed to keep that part of themselves quiet to be accepted in society.
Or maybe not, and this is a brand new phenomenon and ppl just want to be trendy. Honestly, it doesn’t matter.
Live and let live.
My presumption is, and this seems to be backed by clinical evidence, well sexuality issues may be relatively common and questioned*, often a perverted response turns them into body dysmorphia. A young girl who otherwise would’ve simply been a tom boy or lesbian, now might suffer from body dysmorphia, surgery, hormone distortion etc.
That does seem to be legitimate issue to me, however inappropriate some of the responses might be.
Personal stories were requested, will return w details later. Preferably in a Session chat if possible.
*(altho these also should be questioned, and chosen; not pseudo-mystical “destiny” or necessity as the culture implies)
this!
Agreed!
In my opinion the current legislative approach is to force the requirements of the 0.01%. (ppll with actual gender dysphoria, thumbsuck number) on the entire population. It would be like banning all stairs everywhere because some people are in wheelchairs. No, you accommodate where possible, that is the right approach.
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It can theoretically be mutually respectful. However, at this time if you are not all in on the ideology or willing to redefine everything in society it tends to get very disrespectful. In my opinion the pregnant man emoji and the agenda being pushed to kids in public schools is completely unnecessary.
As a human you should be free to live as you wish. But don’t force it on other people to be okay with it.
Why do you all go on about Bitcoin freedom then freak out about people finding their own truth about male/female crossover?
It's their lives - leave them alone
Am I freaking out?
I used the pronoun "you" as a grammatical (not gender) plural
So you (singular) may not be freaking out about but there sure are a lot of RW's freaking out
It was exactly the same RW reactions back in the 70's when Gay people were finding their strength and freedom
Back then we used to say (especially to Xtian moralists) that if it bothers you (plural btw) then mind your own business
Do you see their points too, though?
There are externalities here, like what I mentioned with women's sports and prisons.
There's also the way we redefine all of society, not just the way we treat that single individual.
It does affect all of us when we teach children that gender is interchangeable without acknowledging the vast differences between men and women?
Back in the 70's RW's amplified their fears by claiming being gay meant our kids were going to be preyed upon. So they negatively socialized some kind of malevolence in gay people who just wanted to be left alone.
I personally don't agree with former men competing with physiological women or the compelling of pronouns - forcing people to change such fundamental muscle memory habits etc. Emergent change is far more sensible than top/down change
But the whole thing is easily solved by everyone (Reactionaries and gender benders) meeting in the same place in mutual respect. And if that's not possible, at least respect for privacy
The problem has nothing to do with "people finding their truth."
Kids are being indoctrinated, in *schools,* into an ideology that encourages permanently damaging their hormonal development, taking insanely carcinogenic drugs and literal chemical castration drugs, encouraged and even pushed into horrible surgeries that permanently deform them. None of this. can be undone, & almost everyone who goes through it can be expected to be on multiple medications for literally the rest of their lives.
Wosrt of all is that you are immediately labeled bigoted and evil for suggesting there are negatives. People are ridiculed and attacked for trying to discourage this very often life destroying choice and discussion of consequences are literally viciously shut down.
That's not science, that's not supportive of anyone, and its *certainly* not choosing a gender and minding your own business. Its using gender as a cultural weapon to indoctrinate into a *political* ideology by abusing the confusion & vulnerability of teenagers.
Even the idea of pronouns is the opposite of choosing for yourself. No one uses pronouns in direct conversation. I've never walked up to someone and said "Hey she!" Pronouns are for *third person,* meaning how you talk *about* them and refer to them, **when they are not there.** The not-so-subtle foundation of the entire discussion is coerced speech. That isn't about trying to define who you are, it's about power, and trying to force other people what to say and what to think.
I literally could not care less about some dude choosing to wear a dress and who thinks they are a woman and vice versa, but unfortunately that is not at all a good or realistic description of what is happening the gender movement. It's a hateful political ideology masquerading as "self esteem" and viciously framing any and all reasonable discussion or opposition to it as pure evil.
I think it's specifically the 'redefining society' part that we have a problem with. Find yourself, but go alone, like every other great explorer. Don't ask the whole of society to 'find itself' with you. That's where it becomes a campaign and an intrusion, not liberty.
Someone shouldn't care what people think, if they are 'finding their truth'. The fact that they care so much about other people betrays their true motives. To stimulate change. That is where anyone can legitimately start criticizing anything they say, as it relates to their proposed changes for society/others.
one possible line of thought from another line such as “i choose me, i’m sorry” could take someone to the idea such as this:
if something has no relevance to one’s own life, why bother talking about it? widespread controversy, sometimes, can be unproductive, to say the least, no?
I have to agree.
of course, there are still countless topics & issues one does really care about or that are just interesting, fun or whatever, though the connections may not be immediately apparent. the mere care or interest for god-knows-what reason makes something relevant. point is to love yourself first & foremost…then all else will fall into place as it should (for the most part) 🫶💜✨🌊🫧❕
It’s free to use someone’s pronoun just like it’s free to use someone’s nickname they give you. I don’t really consider it an issue in my life at all. As for the emoji, It’s inherently non-important. As for the sports and prison issues, I think that’s worthy of a conversation. No matter which prison they’d be put in, it could cause issues and our prison system is already full of issues as it is. As for sports, I think you always have to come down on the side of competitive fairness if it’s a public league and let the decision be made by any private league themselves, as it’s their league and their consequence no matter what they decide.
Any way you look at it, just because someone makes a decision for themselves that you don’t agree with, doesn’t mean you have to treat them like an enemy.
We did it, friends.
A respectful discussion about a hot topic with a variety of viewpoints.
Nobody got banned, didn't devolve (too much) into hateful comments.
You could NEVER get this on Twitter.
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I agree thanks for bridging this topic.
The popularity of transgenderism is not an accident. It has been planned for a very long time, because it is the precursor to transhumanism.
Basically, people are experimenting with living as different genders and species, because in the future, the plan is to allow anyone to swap out their body parts to become anything they want to become.
Whether this is good or bad is irrelevant to me. I am not necessarily against transhumanism, but I am against the governments and elites who push it.
If individuals do not have control over this technology, then we will become mindless robots that serve the elite- literally.
This thread could never happen on a centralized censorable platform like Twitter, Parlor, etc. Even anything reliant on AWS, GCP, etc. And it’s been a relatively civil discourse regarding a topic society should be free to dissect critically.
Nostr is winning. Free speech is winning.
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Yes but that’s rooted in self love, non judgement, and accountability. Which is hard to come by in most people.
Pregnant man emoji is a virtue signal. Every virtue signal weakens human resiliency.
Men in women’s sports is more of an indicator that men are being attacked by society and emotionally unintelligent people can’t see past their own trauma to recognize it. Just like the women’s prison thing… women are being raped everyday by guards, clergymen, and physicians while incarcerated. If that’s a real concern then we’d re-examine the system not gender identity.
Men are under attack and have been because weak men are weak minded. It’s easier to take control of the population.
Some very fine points, and a great discussion, I would add that as our gender matters less we in western society will continue to beat this dead horse on terminology. The Hindu caste system is one way to deal with such questions.
As a free person, I do not care what you do or take into your body as long as it creates no pain for anyone else. As @bitcoinbelle mentioned the areas where an injury is being inflicted, mainly again women, need to continue to be brought to attention as much of the injustice is centuries old.
The most important thing is rape and sexual assault are first a power dynamic, not a sex dynamic. As ones gender nor sex has anything to do with these acts.
That is nonsense actually. Rapes are committed by men against women overwhelmingly.
Pretending otherwise makes it less safe for women and is rejecting a very clear reality.
I think it’s dangerous to argue rape as gender specific when children are being sexually abused at alarming rates both girls and boys.
If your argument is protection: gender is irrelevant because statistics aside a violent act is a violent act.
If your argument is men shouldn’t be in women’s facilities then that needs to be at every level… the rape thing just weakens your point.
My argument in this context responding to the statement that rape has nothing to do with sex and gender, when it so clearly does.
Women are far more likely to be raped by a man than the other way around. This is true in the reported statistics and overwhelming when considering all that goes unreported.
And this is rooted in real biology, that men are larger and stronger than women, and more violent and aggressive.
Let's not pretend that isn't true.
Basically just acknowledging reality and not trying to twist it into this gender neutral fantasy is what I'm trying to articulate.
Oh ok. I understand. There are biological differences between men and women.
My original point is that our society runs in such a way that men are under attack and we can’t address it because of all the straw men that have been thrown up.
In my nation rape is defined legally as a male on female, men can not be raped only sexualy assaulted.
Men are victims as well, while the violation is rarely talked about due to shame and stigmatization.
Violence is violence it matter not if it's an individual or the state
It is much easier for a man to defend himself, if he even wants to. Of course men can be victims but there is a huge imbalance due to biological differences.
Well stated!
After learning about ancestral gender dynamics and the relationship they had with the “church” I realized just how the West has been using language as a psychological holding cell.
Once the terms are ignored and roles are given value based on the importance to advancement of society or the family… then problems find solutions much faster.
such an interesting comment section, thank you for asking the right questions
did you know that exposure to pesticides can turn male frogs into females? A 2010 study by UC Berkeley found that chemicals in common pesticides can disrupt the endocrine systems....
