Nostr Web Client

utxo the webmaster 🧑‍💻 2y ago

Now it's just nost I guess

Jeroen ✅ 2y ago

Nostp

12

deleted 2y ago

How exactly is it possible to remove the R ? Im confused.

₿² 2y ago

Notes and

Other

Stuff

Transmitted over

Relays

₿² 2y ago

It’s a joke about losing the relays

₿² 2y ago

Good joke

12

deleted 2y ago

I know thay haha, i mean like how exactly can nostr work peer 2 peer instead of with relays.

₿² 2y ago

They are not sure yet. We should leave the nerds alone while they figure it out though

StephanGuy 2y ago

easily

12

deleted 2y ago

Its the first im hearing of this development.

river 2y ago

What are some of the possible drawbacks from side stepping relays?

Hazey 2y ago

You won't see stuff on all devices or clients, unless the clients share with each other which might be in the plans though.

Also, peer to peer is not hiding behind a relay so people you DM with could see your IP, if that matters.

Vincent 2y ago

Doesn’t it mean ruining the whole point of nostr which is being interoperable and not centralized ?

The Satokespeare 2y ago

Wouldn’t ruin the “whole” point, I think it would be usecase specific, notes would always need relays, calling, and maybe even DMs don’t really need relays. Solutions to problems often have a way of sidestepping politics of ideas.

liminal 🦠 2y ago

Even less of an illusion for "global"

StephanGuy 2y ago

p2p is harder especially for offline and prevent ip exposure

CMHRZKSR⚡⚖️🏴‍☠️ 2y ago

content privacy or complete privacy?

jascha 2y ago

Okay relay operators, go ahead and shut down your relays. 😉

Colby Serpa 2y ago

This will be interesting.

Tico 🇨🇷 2y ago

Thank you for your constant work Vitor 🫂

Pura vida 😍

ZITRON 2y ago

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Vincent 2y ago

Do you have any thoughts about the technologies used in keet and Holepunch in this context?

NyamiDev 2y ago

Amazing. The ultimate mesh network.

Ava 2y ago

A rajouter à la note de nostr:npub180cvv07tjdrrgpa0j7j7tmnyl2yr6yr7l8j4s3evf6u64th6gkwsyjh6w6 pose la question du pourquoi nostr a de plus utilisateurs ou d'un microglobing. Avant de faire du marketing à mon avis il fait d'abord rechercher les qualités et défauts du produit, se poser la question du pourquoi certains quittent le navire même doté d'un esprit communautaire indéniable, pour pouvoir le promouvoir. Il me manque qu'il serait intéressant de faire une mise à plat de tout ce qui a été construit depuis décembre, la substance des notes est indispensable puis l' organiser... J'espère qu'ils ne vont pas vers un déploiement sans vraiment la substance qui fait le produit qualitatif pas seulement l'étendard liberté cool liberté et Bitcoin.. Qu'il laisse la porte ouverte aux feedbacks des utilisateurs

51

516add19... 2y ago

I love this idea. P2P

I3_I2_I_Z 2y ago

nostr:nevent1qqsgahwzr3wrrlaqeajx7qey97d0s8g2q6fhnyk8g6fcxq0vrm2y7hqpw9mhxue69uhkv6tvw3jhytnwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0dec82c33xgurwwre0fn8zunkxfcxvct9wp3nqeny89mrvun3xemx6un9xvehwat5wce8surkvvu8get8x4ex5atywechyvmnwe4x60mzwfhkzerrv9ehg0t5wf6k2fn8d3hkyctv84skcmqzypglcusfyqd3g98hy8pa954ngvrfnv0xx9m3d3gc9nqa09zswt34sqcyqqqqqqg7stqma

Sai 2y ago

This isn’t a bad idea. Additionally you could consider using a blending of the two whereas the relays still serve purpose, either by segmenting data between both transmissions, carrying an authentication, or many other things. I’m not saying you would be required to, but by keeping relays involved you could have secondary layers for encryption, already running use cases or features. I’ll be waiting to see!

You’re always working on it, and we appreciate you brother!

🧡🫂💜🔱

StephanGuy 2y ago

nostr:nevent1qqs0n74z3lustcqnmsedge8mmjd06tgnddlkd6u0g2nvy078xecdfgcpz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqygzxpsj7dqha57pjk5k37gkn6g4nzakewtmqmnwryyhd3jfwlpgxtspsgqqqqqqsshrc6v

🟠 isolabellart 2y ago

👀👀👀⚡⚡⚡

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgq3qgcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqxpqqqqqqzz7hcc2

Colby Serpa 2y ago

IPFS uses Bitswap as a reputation system to decide which peers to sync with. It can be gamed with DDoSing.

How do you decide which peers to sync with on Amethyst P2P? There are so many users.

9f

the max 2y ago

> How do you decide which peers to sync with on Amethyst P2P? There are so many users.

It can be done, here's just an example:

It should be possible to generate an onion address keypair algorithmically from the recipient's Nostr keypair, in a manner that is reproducible on sender-side using only the public key. Roughly similar to how Bitcoin HD wallets (xprv/xpub) work.

There are probably some privacy footnotes with this method, but would give you 100% accurate peer discovery without an intermediary.

Just to be clear, none of this exists. It's only an example of how it could be done.

Neo ⚡️ 2y ago

👀

Cameri🐦‍🔥 2y ago

are the energy and bandwidth requirements for this higher or lower? Are you planning on using negentropy for sync?

Does that mean that my IP address would be available to any other user on Nostr?

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago 💬 1

The visibility of the IP address is what I am testing right now. We can always make it go through an internal Tor implementation, which I am also testing right now. But Tor won't work for voice and video calls later. But I think that use case is less sensitive of IP leakage since the user approves the call when receiving it.

Lots to do yet.

StephanGuy 2y ago

you could wait till keet.io is open sourced and integrate it

Max 2y ago

With arti you can configure tor to work fine for video calls on a phone.

nout 2y ago

Are you building from scratch or reusing existing infra?

E.g. Briar has solid implementation for passing messages over Bluetooth or local WiFi, Holepunch has interesting P2P streaming, SimpleX has good no-user-id concept, lightning has onion routing, Tor or I2P are the standard...

water783 2y ago

I'm very interested in P2P event transmission, but mobile device networking with ICE presents significant challenges, especially given the complexities of global networks

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

In the way I see it, it's about the protocol to check if two people are online and then send the event over there, falling back to relays if it doesn't. The most basic version should work for this simplistic scenario. Then we can improve it over time.

51

516add19... 2y ago

So if both parties online it would be P2P, and relays if offline?

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

That's what I said :)

51

516add19... 2y ago

Im liking it!💪

Thanks for always innovating.🙏

72

KentuckyChicken 2y ago

It's a good idea. And basically how torrents work anyways

Viktor Vsk 2y ago

Could you please elaborate on “the protocol to check” ?

DZC 2y ago

So, would your IP be shared with your peers?

That doesn't initially look too good for privacy.

Looking forward to learning more about this 'protocol'.

🫂

Zoltan ⚡️ 2y ago 💬 1

#Nostr 2.0 is incoming.... 👀🤙

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qgcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqxpqqqqqqznscs53

Иван 2y ago

Actually, I'm just glad 😅 I don't need these events on my relay because they may be related to shady dealings

StephanGuy 2y ago

sexy dealings

Иван 2y ago

Nostr is ideal as a platform and catalog for sex workers 🤔

StephanGuy 2y ago

other stuff

Иван 2y ago

#brothelstr

jb55 2y ago

nostr:note1mpz6xxdg955jrhk8y9yhgt85r9yav9tmuqrw95tashcwujl3w0ys9vpszx

Gustavo 2y ago

Pure P2P is terrible for privacy. Governments can detect activity between two distinct IPs and build a social graph of the interactions. How to prevent this kind of thing? Will there be some trustworthy proxy between peers?

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

What if both users are on Tor?

Gustavo 2y ago

That can help a lot. Another idea would be to push some relay software so that people can receive some sats to run it. So, if you want more privacy, you can pay sats for rerouting your traffic. Tor is great, but the latency is unbearable for real-time video communication.

Gustavo 2y ago

I have a lot of bandwidth and hardware power not in use. Many also do. We should find a way to use that in Nostr's favor.

StephanGuy 2y ago

having sats as the basis to use a feature generally wont work as most people dont have them

StephanGuy 2y ago

this is what briar does, using the internet via tor and local networks without

Bitkorns 2y ago

No strong push back from this relay. I'm only running one b/c this isn't already a thing.

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpvemhxue69uhkv6tvw3jhytnwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0dec82c33wehx66ryxgurwurk0puxkdth89kkx7trvcerxctkxg6xuumrwa4nqerpxae8yenpvy6hwuf5dsuxsum9dpenjvrxw3k8v0mzwfhkzerrv9ehg0t5wf6k2q3qgcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqxpqqqqqqz5rkj52

jeff 2y ago

Interesting. Looking forward to see what you cook up.

From the nostr readme: “it does not rely on P2P techniques, and therefore it works”

StephanGuy 2y ago

does not rely but is also compatible with p2p

nostr dev is also permissionless so no statements about the protocol are law

Fiat Shenanigans 🤡🌎 2y ago

Holy shit!

Fuck yeah!

Go nostr:npub1gcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqlfnj5z! 👊

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsygzxpsj7dqha57pjk5k37gkn6g4nzakewtmqmnwryyhd3jfwlpgxtspsgqqqqqqsv4v8d2

Egge 2y ago

The great thing about nostr is that it is not p2p. This seems like a step backwards and there are many p2p protocols in development already. Still looking forward to see what you are building. 💪

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

We can use one of those methods to transfer nostr events. Let me know if I should look at anything you like out there.

Egge 2y ago

Definitely check out keet / holepunch. When it comes to p2p I am always worried about users privacy. It’s easy to doxx information like your location to your peers.

Are you going to publish more information about your plans soon?

StephanGuy 2y ago

holepunch.to veilid.com github.com/freenet/freenet-core

StephanGuy 2y ago

veilid and freenet are designed with better privacy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb1lKscAMDQ

cloud fodder 2y ago

So, a turn server? Very little info about the architecture here, but since you said relay operators would hate it, now I'm wondering why would I hate it? Don't see a reason why.. 😎 The thing is, I know you can't do this without servers to bounce the traffic, and push notify uses too much Google servers to feel very OSS nostr. If you keep your server stack opensource and configurable then relays can help run the network and decentralize. If not, you're gonna lock yourself into being the one server and I don't think you really want that..

Turn services would be a really cool concept to nostrize to facilitate P2P connections. I'd run some along side relays for sure, because then I don't have that data resting and clients can p2p any number of things..

ben 2y ago

this is my assumption too. looking forward to seeing some architecture documents, not sure how this achieves privacy.

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

No servers (otherwise we should just use relays).

The proposal is to do phone to phone directly.

ben 2y ago

sounds too good to be true! how do phones talk p2p. share the wizardry good sir

StephanGuy 2y ago

keet.io

ben 2y ago

🤷‍♂️ must be magic

cloud fodder 2y ago

So how do you traverse the NAT?

daniele 2y ago

Yes, how?

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

Ok, this is what I am testing.. Dont take this as a final solution.

First: IPv6. On IPv4, you have to deal with NAT travel + firewall holepunch. With IPv6, the NAT stuff is gone. All you need is a simple STUN server to open the connection.

Second: We can use Nostr to signal people's IPv6+port to one another.

Once that is done, both sides start sendind UDP messages over IPv6 to each other. The first 2 messages should be rejected because of the firewall, but after that the door is open. We try this until we hear a package back.

Now, the beauty of Nostr is that somebody is always online. Which means other phones can behave as STUN servers to open people's firewals more easily.

The goal is to use network effects to avoid the need for central servers. Market participants can add their computers or phones to the pool by just replying the Nostr signaling requests.

It's like a STUN server as a DVM.

Lots to test, but that was the idea.

cloud fodder 2y ago

what if.. forget about STUN for a second, it isn't gonna work for most peers (esp mobile carrier networks). You could support ipv* by 'relays' running coturn and forcing the use of the turn server vs. stun would not expose IP info between the peers. Coturn has all the stun options, so if a peer was willing, they could opt in to the IP disclosure and achieve a true P2P connection.

multi hops could also be implemented, by using wireguard networks with relays being a 'hop' server.

https://github.com/coturn/coturn

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

Yeah that's the easy way to do it. But I think we can do it without coturn. Most of what coturn implements is for the old nat stuff. There days everyone has an IPv6. Só it should be easier.

cloud fodder 2y ago

🤔

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

But it is a fallback for the p2p if everything else fails.

cloud fodder 2y ago

given how popular vpns are im not sure why anyone would want to connect p2p 🐻‍❄️🤔

Betty von Schmartenhausen 2y ago

"These days everyone has an IPv6" - don't think that's the case at all. Most countries seem to be running at around 50-60% deployment, and that's only showing allocated IPv6 that doesn't mean configured and in use.

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

That seems different than what I have but if that is true let's hope we can help them finish the transition.

Betty von Schmartenhausen 2y ago

Let's hope you can. It's been in deployment for ~20 years!

Maybe you're mixing cellular and fixed line services. On cellular, the figures are likely higher but on fixed line they're also likely lower. Mobile users aren't, most the time, using a cellular connection though, they're using WiFi.

https://ipv6-test.com/stats/

water783 2y ago

I have implemented the calling service in 0xchat, but using the traditional technical solution:

Relay signaling+WebRTC+STUN+TURN.

I’m looking forward to your experimental results. :)

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

Which servers are you using for stun and turn?

water783 2y ago

Google’s STUN and our own built STUN/TURN service, followed by support users to input their owned services, similar to the approach of Simplex

ben 2y ago

cool idea, subscribed!

StephanGuy 2y ago

peers in a p2p network are servers and can act as relays, there is already a few p2p relay networks

cloud fodder 2y ago

You can't traverse NAT without a server to setup your connection. Especially on mobile networks. One of your 'peers' must open their firewall. By doing so, in my book, it becomes a server. But the semantics may have changed, I dunno why people think servers are so lame. They're just computers that are up and online.

StephanGuy 2y ago

peers in p2p are servers

from the lead dev of holepunch.to https://x.com/mafintosh/status/1259596991857930243 there is distributed holepunching aka nat firewall traversal

cloud fodder 2y ago

Yes, it uses a lot of techniques I'm well familiar with, techniques that don't really work anymore. Like STUN. Mobile networks especially, you're just gonna end up sending all that traffic through a turn relay (which is fine).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traversal_Using_Relays_around_NAT

https://webrtc.org/getting-started/turn-server

StephanGuy 2y ago

as p2p apps become popular incompatible shit 'networks' will face tremendous pressure to become proper networks

cloud fodder 2y ago

I wish. A majority of the world is on a mobile carriers network.. I just don't see how it would apply any pressure, can't even get people to use a desktop browser anymore.

StephanGuy 2y ago

many mobile networks work p2p, mobiles also have wifi, starlink lol

there will be nsa datacenter peers to use, its what american tax victims pay for

Nour 2y ago 💬 1

Nostr is just getting started. The plebs are rebuilding the internet from bottom up, top down, left and right.

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyprqcf0xst760qet2tglytfay2e3wmvh9asdehpjztkceyh0s5r9cqcyqqqqqqg5cvj3m

6b

6b63f300... 2y ago

Perplexity.ai prompt

"Rewrite for someone who isn't smarter than a 4th grader."

Nostr is a way to send messages to your friends. They are working on making it even more private by sending messages directly between you and your friend, instead of going through a middleman called a relay.

This will make it harder for other people to see your messages.

They are also working on adding voice and video calls. It might take a while to make this change, but it will be worth it.

This will be a feature for other apps too, not just Nostr. It's important to keep your messages private so that only the people you want to see them can see them.

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzq3svyhng9ld8sv44950j957j9vchdktj7cxumsep9mvvjthc2pjuqvzqqqqqqyjkmnhd

Greg 2y ago

This feels like something fundamentally different from the Nostr protocol. Is that the goal?

I’m open to being convinced but P2P is a different model than client and relay. Is this just for a limited set of features?

StephanGuy 2y ago

nostr is already p2p compatible

StephanGuy 2y ago

the notes can be distributed via any means because they are self authenticating

Greg 2y ago

But it’s the difference between a distributed and decentralised network. Distributed is P2P and it has even more trade offs than decentralised networks.

There are no free lunches

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

Then we will navigate those trade-offs and let users choose what they prefer. :)

Greg 2y ago

I’m open to being convinced but what do we need this for? Is it just private DMs?

Duck Nebuchadnezzar 2y ago

Only use it for the use cases that make sense. For everything else there's m̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶c̶a̶r̶d̶ relays.

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

Private DMs, Private DM Attachments, private Zaps, and private reactions on top of Voice and Video calls.

Greg 2y ago

Have you written out the architecture anywhere yet? Would love to dive in and understand

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

No, I am just testing things out for now. WebRtc seems to work, but I want to get rid of these servers they use for signaling and use giftWrapped msgs in Nostr for that.

I'm might have multiple layers. Bluetooth, WIFI for those physically close to one another and some version of WebRtc for the rest.

Greg 2y ago

Interesting 🤔 well I look forward to more info

Unicorn㊙Whisperer 2y ago

reminds me of Microsoft's Skype

StephanGuy 2y ago

nostr is already distributed and not p2p except for relays

trade offs are being worked on, we also have more compute and network resoirces than ever

Greg 2y ago

Nostr isn’t distributed. Here’s the difference https://www.hivenet.com/post/decentralized-or-distributed-whats-the-big-difference

StephanGuy 2y ago

then you either dont understand nostr or distributed

i am not going to bother with that silly article btw tho it likely agrees with me

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/distribute

'To distribute is to disperse widely, hand out, or spread around'

how are nostr notes distributed? how can nostr notes be distributed? are nostr notes on a wide variety of servers? are nostr notes handed out widely to relays? can i put nostr notes on a usb stick and give them to a friend? can that friend send those notes from that usb stick to a relay? can 500 other relays download those notes from that relay? can 1million people download those notes from those relays?

how is nostr distributed?

StephanGuy 2y ago

data is very cheap especially on local networks, the lunch is cheap

Nour 2y ago

No strong opinions about P2P here, just want to emphasize my respect to your work and enthusiasm. You will get something cool done.

Sourcenode 2y ago

Before nostr was created I imagined a decentralized social media platform where everyone hosted their own content.

To illustrate the idea. Imagine user one would host their own conrent and the content of anyone they follow. User one's followers will host their own content along with the people the users they are following.

This creates an incentive to be mindful of who you follow and for those with the greatest following to have the greatest reach. In that network, hitting the follow button represents a physical commitment to host content (either on a cloud service or a personal server).

I am not technical enough to understand exactly what is meant by giftwrapping, but I thought I would post this in case it sparked an idea.

Thanks for your continued work and dedication 🙏

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

This Nostr proposal is not that different from what you are saying. The only difference here is the signatures. I was working on a version of a P2P system like you described back in 2008. It is possible. It's hard, very hard, but possible.

Sourcenode 2y ago

Very cool man. I'm here for the experiments and the developments.

Onwards towards freedom 🤙

bu5hm4nn 2y ago

This is my vision as well. I really liked the proposal with rendez-vouz beacons and webrtc for those side channels. What spec are you thinking of using?

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago 💬 3

So, passing over Bluetooth and internal WIFI is very easy (which was my first test a few weeks ago). I just started doing some WebRTC tests and looking at some server alternatives and signaling needs. It works but I am very early in this whole adventure.

I looked at Rendez-vouz as well and I was wondering can't we just pass the signaling through our usual relays instead? Maybe we still need some type of STUN server to get the phone's IP and as long as two users can use different STUN servers, it could work.

What I want to avoid is replacing our replays with a different "relay". If we need to use a server to transfer some info we can just use our regular relays instead to avoid another dependency/attacking point.

Mike Dilger ☑️ 2y ago

Yes I think using nostr relays to setup rendezvous is a great idea, with hole punching something like this https://itnext.io/p2p-nat-traversal-how-to-punch-a-hole-9abc8ffa758e

What lower level protocol are you thinking of using? UDP messages? TCP with message framing added back? WebSockets? If we are starting a new protocol, can we go binary?

Dimi 2y ago

Support this

https://github.com/markqvist/Reticulum

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

We will need to go binary for voice and video calls. But for the messages that are just simple nostr events, I am not sure if it makes sense since the event is already in text.🤔

Big Barry Bitcoin 2y ago

Interesting, but this is where keet also suffers. Without backups of the whole thing, edge case events make the whole thing feel clunky.

Either rely on relays or not, give the option to restore all in one, or not at all.

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

This is why I think we can succeed. The relay infrastructure will always be there to be a fallback. The P2P stuff is an additional layer of privacy to be used when 2 phones are able to reliably connect with one another.

OceanSlim 2y ago

nosti -

(notes and

other

stuff

transmitted over

internet)

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qgsyvrp9u6p0mfur9dfdru3d853tx9mdjuhkphxuxgfwmryja7zsvhqrqsqqqqqpds3v5q

τέχνη 2y ago

Use Reticulum: https://github.com/markqvist/Reticulum

Ingwie Phoenix (aka. birb) 2y ago

I could see P2P transmission as being super neat for near-instant messaging. Not sure if it is a good idea for broadcasting notes to all followers, but there are definitively use cases where I would love that.

Please do consider documenting it - even if not in the nips repo - for easier referencing when developing something based on this! ^^

IMO Nostr lives and dies from it's documentation. It is why there are so few Matrix clients, because the Matrix docs are a PITA...

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

dYeah, it's not for public notes. The idea is to focus on private ones, which is generally just encrypted p2p anyway :)

pam 2y ago

What’s the resource expectation for users ? And how will impact scalability at all corners of the world when it hits mainstream spread ?

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago 💬 2

If it fails it goes back to relays. So, it shouldn't have any impact. It's just additional privacy when the user are able to connect to one another.

OceanSlim 2y ago

Hot take: a protocol centered around the internet is inherently more open than a protocol centered around relays on the Internet. One includes the other.

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qgsyvrp9u6p0mfur9dfdru3d853tx9mdjuhkphxuxgfwmryja7zsvhqrqsqqqqqpds3v5q

someone 2y ago

Relays are public and shouldn't involve with private things yes. I support this.

What if I use both Amethyst (mobile) and Primal (desktop)?

Primal will not be in sync with my private communications.

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago 💬 5

User 1 sends the event to User 2 via P2P instead of pushing through a relay. Then User 2 can send to any relay it wants for backup and to share with other clients the same user uses.

Amethyst would just send it to your own write relays for backup for now. And we could have an option to turn that off for the privacy-conscious users. In that case, no event received via P2P ever leaves the phone.

noKYC ⚡︎ 2y ago

Let me get this straight, will only private events be p2p?

Because in your initial note you say that this movement starts with private events, which made me understand that in the future all events would be p2p.

If only private p2p events and public notes continue to be transmitted via relays, at this point I support the idea. I believe that this way the scroll feed experience does not change.

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

Correct. Only private events will be P2P (because they are already encrypted in a P2P way). I just have way more private event types coming up, like legally-binding contracts: https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/755

noKYC ⚡︎ 2y ago

I think I understand now. So I really don't see any problem for the relay operators, nor for the feed experience 🤷‍♂️

Looking forward to the new private events 🚀

Mazin 2y ago

+1. I don’t see why any of us would be bothered by this. Relay operators don’t want your private stuff anyway.

The details of course are in the implementation. I think its a lot harder to pull off then you’ve made it sound in this note :)

The Callnote 2y ago

Ask and you shall receive! Privacy and reduced liability , value 4 value .

TheWildHustle 2y ago

What a time to be alive

jb55 2y ago

I think a simplex-like queue abstraction on top of nostr would be the best of both worlds

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

I have not found a reason to use Simplex if you are doing WebRTC. Instead of Nostr -> SimpleX -> WebRTC, you might as well just do Nostr -> WebRTC. It's one less point of attack.

jb55 2y ago

The point of simplex is the async queues which you can’t replace with p2p tech. Nostr is missing the ephemeral push-pull queue idea

nout 2y ago

Async queues could fit nicely into relays. The queues are a really interesting solution in my opinion and I wonder where is that applicable in Bitcoin or Nostr space...

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

I agree async queues could just be implemented in Nostr but I don't see a need for async queues at the moment. But maybe I am missing something...

jb55 2y ago

It enables ephemeral asynchronous notes without p2p

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

I understand. But I don't have a use for that yet. It's a nice to have in my bucket.

P2P is a must though. The whole point of p2p is to transfer private content without any servers involved.

jb55 2y ago

You pretty much always need servers to holepunch connections at the very least. Not to mention its also pretty rare to have two clients online at the same time to establish p2p comms. Even in that case you may still need bridge servers.

jb55 2y ago

Given these difficulties a temporary queue of messages would be much more reliable and just as private, if auth was required from the get go.

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

You need servers for P2P signaling, yes. But that signaling doesn't need async queues. I also question the assumption that two users are not online. They might not start online, but as soon as one messages the other, both stay online for the length of the conversation. And if you do push notifications, like we do, you can get the other user online in seconds. If both are online they don't need relays at all.

thepurpose 2y ago

What's the niche of the vanilla SimpleX client for Nostronauts from your point of view? #asknostr

3d

foxy 2y ago

Cool

mutatrum 2y ago

My initial reaction is Nostp2p is not Nostr. Looking forward to more details on this.

rodant 2y ago

Sounds like combining the best of both decentralized approaches, great take. I think Nostr should stay open to innovations like this.

3c

₿itcoin 2y ago

Yeahhhhhhh!

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsygzxpsj7dqha57pjk5k37gkn6g4nzakewtmqmnwryyhd3jfwlpgxtspsgqqqqqqsv4v8d2

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I don’t know what this means but it sounds provocative

Dan 2y ago

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

My bad got the quote wrong 😂

kidwarp 2y ago

This nip is given me a boner

Cosmic Dimension 2y ago

Love Amethyst 🫂💜👍🫡

Bac0t 2y ago

would this make nostr client/s less data hungry?

franzap 2y ago 💬 1

Gossip model + clients as relays

nostr:note1dnpanu8aarvkk89ynrvu2wrmw9tzl9dx22tydcppxazqpusz8pls9rv9rz

d2

Ken 2y ago

Is there any use case for using IPFS as data storage for Nostr?

<old>cypherhoodlum 2y ago

All for Nostr privacy improvements. This will probably be one of those fundamental design choices which look obvious in hindsight and baffling that it wasn't included in the first or second drafts of the protocol. Then again this could fail spectacularly with users' phones filling up to the brim or connections almost always falling back to relays, with months and months of dev hours wasted for basically nothing. But what do I know, I'm just your friendly hoodlum in these cyphers. Interested to see how all this unwinds.

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzvupzq3svyhng9ld8sv44950j957j9vchdktj7cxumsep9mvvjthc2pjuqvzqqqqqqystrw4y

BitcoinJujitsu 2y ago

Closer to my vision. Farther from Elon's. This is good

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsygzxpsj7dqha57pjk5k37gkn6g4nzakewtmqmnwryyhd3jfwlpgxtspsgqqqqqqsv4v8d2

thepurpose 2y ago

"Nostr is just starting" -- nostr:npub1gcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqlfnj5z @ ~Fall Equinox 2023

Listen closely if you didn't do already.

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzvupzq3svyhng9ld8sv44950j957j9vchdktj7cxumsep9mvvjthc2pjuqvzqqqqqqystrw4y

youngMoney 2y ago

Yeah baby!

a7

cryptocarrie 2y ago

I look forward to your progress.

Nunya Bidness 2y ago

How did Napster do it?

Nunya Bidness 2y ago

Is this similar to the way Napster/Limewire worked?

nostr:note1dnpanu8aarvkk89ynrvu2wrmw9tzl9dx22tydcppxazqpusz8pls9rv9rz

doot 2y ago

nostr:note1dnpanu8aarvkk89ynrvu2wrmw9tzl9dx22tydcppxazqpusz8pls9rv9rz

good or bad?

doot 2y ago 💬 2

quote tweets on primal sucks

BITKARROT 2y ago

ON FIRE!!

nostr:note1dnpanu8aarvkk89ynrvu2wrmw9tzl9dx22tydcppxazqpusz8pls9rv9rz

unspent.space 2y ago

Is this comparable to something like holepunch?

Dennis 2y ago

👀

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qgcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqxpqqqqqqznscs53

Toby McMann 2y ago

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsygzxpsj7dqha57pjk5k37gkn6g4nzakewtmqmnwryyhd3jfwlpgxtspsgqqqqqqsv4v8d2

Jeremy 2y ago

Can't believe what I'm reading 👀 This could be mindblowing 🤯

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpzemhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejz7q3qgcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqxpqqqqqqz8xspcg

Haha 2y ago

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

Moss 2y ago

This is a big challenge, support. Nostr now allows anyone to see who you're talking to through your public key, even if you can't see what we're talking about. It's not nice to have a private chat party in a glass room in the square where everyone can see. Better protection of privacy would be a huge step forward.💜🫂

pjv 2y ago

You must look at veilid. https://veilid.com/docs/overview/

"Veilid is an open-source, peer-to-peer, mobile-ﬁrst, networked application framework.

The framework is conceptually similar to IPFS and Tor, but faster and designed from the ground-up to provide all services over a privately routed network.

The framework enables development of fully-distributed applications without a 'blockchain' or a 'transactional layer' at their base.

The framework can be included as part of user-facing applications or run as a 'headless node' for power users who wish to help build the network."

rodant 2y ago

Absolutely!

0xDEADC0DE 2y ago

Is this available in China? Push service against GFW…

HODLFast ⚡⚓ 2y ago

Zapped!

nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5pzq3svyhng9ld8sv44950j957j9vchdktj7cxumsep9mvvjthc2pjuqvzqqqqqqy63zq9p

CryptoClay 2y ago

does anyone know they should save their data themselves ? This is the only point that bother me in this 😉

Leo Wandersleb 2y ago 💬 1

nostr:note1dnpanu8aarvkk89ynrvu2wrmw9tzl9dx22tydcppxazqpusz8pls9rv9rz

Nostr is about censorship resistance and at least for me, the most challenging mode of censorship resistance is censorship resistant broadcast. Avoiding meta data leak in encrypted transmission is a different problem to solve and nostr trying to solve the former would have to compromise on that to solve the latter. Therefore I believe Gift-wrapped DMs and "full P2P" is potentially harming nostr.

liminal 🦠 2y ago

Is there a thread that discusses this? Would love to be a fly on the wall for this 🧐

Derek Ross 2y ago

Hmm. How are you going to achieve this and stay interoperable with other clients? I assume the fallback transmission you mentioned? Also, would this be utilizing nostrdb, so that users essentially use their own relay and communicate to other's via their own local relays? Is there a gossip model being used? So many questions. Is there an external discussion that I can see and randomly yell into?

jb55 2y ago

I think it’s fair to say amethyst is not going to be very compatible with other clients going forward. I highly doubt anyone would build around his centralized push server as a core protocol mechanism.

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago 💬 1

I am not going to use the push server for P2P. There is going to be no server. Thats the whole point.

Mycelial 2y ago

Plizz no hard forks

be

nobody 2y ago

Man I need someone to explain this to me like I’m 5

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

Simple, if two users are using compatible P2P implementations, they can transfer their events via P2P, if not it goes through relays as usual. On a conversation via DMs for instance, I would assume the first DM comes in via relays and then moves to P2P when the person replies. The likelyhood of the two users being online is higher there. Then no additional DM goes through relays anymore, increasing privacy.

Of course, each user can receive the message via P2P and still send to relays for backup, but that is the receving user's choice, not the sender.

Derek Ross 2y ago

Thanks.

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

Lots to test yet. We will see if can get this to an interesting level.