What level of nostr derangement syndrome is this. Nostr wonāt work because you can just censor the apps? What? This seems like an argument against X not nostr. 
Discussion
Idk what Parkerās deal is. Got tired of arguing with him over there about nostr. Honestly baffling!!
Thatās what he wants, more engagement. Just leave, heāll eventually come over here and ask you to pay attention to him on nostr.
I get the feeling he doesn't know we can run our own clients and relays.
Yeah maybe noone has explained how nostr works to him
ROFL does he not understand that keys are portable between every client?
He does, he just thinks once a developer of a nostr client is threatened by a government or otherwise compromised, the rest will be intimidated and pull out of app stores like Phoenix did. Not exactly a NOSTR killer attack, but he kinda has a point
We donāt need the app stores. We have nostr:npub10r8xl2njyepcw2zwv3a6dyufj4e4ajx86hz6v4ehu4gnpupxxp7stjt2p8. Also, itās easy to run web clients like Nostrudel locally.
He has a point but only in a vacuum. That scenario is plausible but is not anywhere near the whole picture.
He is not considering the fact that we can simply turn to any of the other nostr clients.
Oh, they're all "banned"? We we can easily sideload the apps.
And if that doesn't work we can spin up private clients with open source code.
All the while your identity persists like nothing happened.
A protocol is PRECISELY what we need. Saying we need unfaliable devs is like saying the solution to corruption is a perfectly virtuous government. All humans have a weak spot.
Nostr provides trustless identity and the foundation for it.
99% of ppl are not gonna do any of that the same way they are not gonna stamp their seed phrase on a steel plate. If NOSTR is going to be the new public square it will beed great clients on app stores. Iām not saying that scenario would end NOSTR, but like I said there is precedent (Phoenix) of clients pulling out of app stores. It is a legitimate concern, but not a reason or excuse to favor X
Nostr isn't claiming to be the town square. It is a censorship resistant protocol where people can go (often as a last resort) to maintain their voice.
To expand on this, nostr is there for the most desperate, much like bitcoin to be honest.
It gives those who would otherwise have no voice the ability to communicate, just like bitcoin gives the unbanked the ability to transact.
I agree 99% of people won't do all those things, but also 99% of people likely aren't desperate enough right now. If/when that time comes, nostr will be here for them. Things like that don't happen in a vacuum. And when it does happen to a given population, that disenfranchised group alone will be enough users to make nostr "worth it" and appreciated.
I noted this a while back but I think its appropriate here: nostr doesn't have to be big, to be big.
He must think that each "app" has its own backend with all the Nostr notes stored there, so that apps specifically can be pressured to censor some people and then all users of that app will not see that content. If that is how he thinks it works then his criticism is very reasonable.
I thought he was smarter than that
Stage 5 Iāld say
Just like Musk, I too fight back against censorship by cow towing to the censors and folding to their strong-arm demands š
With X you can only censor them once. With Nostr you get to keep censoring them over and over again. That's so much censorship, you guys.
If youāre winning at the X game, you donāt want to see it end.
he must think it works like mastodon
The algo gave him Twitter brain
Iāve seen this doc, This is a cult following a leader š¬
Not to mention that a lot of apps have self hosted options
I think he is confusing the app being the same as the network. With Twitter, the app is the network. Not so with nostr - the network is the network. I use several apps. If one ācensorsā, I can just not use it.
Explain again how an app that can be sideloaded can be truly censored?
OK let's take crazy pills and assume it can be. Does he not understand how nostr keys work? Kinda the whole point that your identity follows you.
Open sourced clients means anyone can spin up their own client.
Nostr is significantly censorship resistant. No one is claiming censorship proof.
Whos the CEO of nostr??
Also - elon is just a figure head - Linda Yaccarino runs the joint - and shes āwith the programā
Love Parker. Think heās one of the best in Bitcoin but his Nostr critiques are like the level 1 Bitcoin critiques that the government can just shut it down
Well, I think we all know the protocols survived and the founders did notā¦HTTP, SMTP, and so onā¦
As long as you have a good dictator you should be fine.
He's clearly missing the entire point of open protocols. If an app with hundreds of millions of people gets censored or banned or whatever then those hundreds of millions of people just login to one of several dozens of other apps and continue on like nothing happened.
Clearly, we all think this doesn't make sense, but we are the outliers who would go as far as finding yet another client or running our own.
Maybe what he's trying to say applies to the scope of normies....as in, for the vast majority, they wont go as far as running their own clients or finding yet another client to use their portable keys with when one gets banned. Thus, for the vast majority banning nostr apps might still be an effective means of deterrence.
Just trying to rationalize his side š¤
nostr:npub1guh5grefa7vkay4ps6udxg8lrqxg2kgr3qh9n4gduxut64nfxq0q9y6hjy get your boy and sit him down for a day so he can gradually, then suddenly understand Nostr.
Parker will get Nostr at the Zap height he deserves.
Lol. Elon literally bent the knee to turkey during their elections last year.
He also did it just now in brazil
He actually made the better decision with Brazil. He only has two decisions: comply or leave the entire country. The Turkish situation was much worse. Instead of leaving Turkey, he suppressed a Turkish candidate on behalf of their dictator while still allowing Turkish people to access the platform. That's worse than just banning them all.
Both choices are awful, which is why Nostr is important. He should want to not be able to make such choices for the underlying protocol.
True. I suppose he didnāt block Brazil in addresses or censor content though, rather just headed out.
Will
The world was in belief that Nvidia was subpoenaed yesterday and everyone went into panic mode over fake news
One guys post at the moment is a bit of a laughing stock ā¦. Add this guys to the pile
Iāll be using Nostr on some weird unchipped device if I got toā¦.
Sure if we ban the internet š¤£š¤£š¤£
Let these guys posts go into oblivion with all the WW3 has started news
It would be funny if you hard coded a ban on his pubkey in Damus if he ever came back š¤£ just him, nobody else
That blue checkmark doing some workā¦
wait - what?!
So social media needs to be centralized (and huge) so that it can have a very powerful founder who pushes back on the inevitable censorship. Is that the argument?
yes
š¬
Everyone gets nostr on the day they deserve
Forget the censorship stuff
How bout the fact that we can send and receive BITCOIN without permission or KYC
That's pretty fucking cool and that's what we need to focus on
And until that changes, I'll be here
Fuck that guy and fuck everyone with any sort of Derangement Syndrome.
Open your mind up a little.
He seems to think that having a billionaire own the app is the winning strategy. That's A strategy, but wouldn't it be better if the billionaire owned an app that uses a protocol that he couldn't censor even if he wanted to?
Putting aside the fact that Jack is involved with Nostr, I'd still prefer to use a system where apps can be forked, etc. Having one massive honeypot vs hundreds of tiny ones doesn't seem like a winning strategy.
He put his faith in the autistic Batman.
SAD!
Woooow.
Some of us have been booted from X just for innocuous comments on Bitcoin content. X as a bastion of free speech is a perspective and not a fact.
Does he think theyāll ban the websites too and not just the apps? Iām confused on this logic
Thinking is his problem.
Youāre supposed to do the thinking after the understanding, and Parker clearly hasnāt got that part down.
Woah! He is confused, the representation of freedom larpers.
Maybe he means that they'll go after one or two devs and make an example out of them for the rest? But his conclusion is wrong.
But also, these guys are blind to their own leader. Elon has bent the knee in Turkey and in India and has censored accounts there. And the likely reason is that it would affect sales of Tesla/Starlink in those jurisdictions. What a free speach hero...
I don't agree all that he said re the app level censorship. However, before we fully shut his concept. Could we look at the last statement he said? If let's say someone decided to "shutdown" or block the entire protocol (god forbid! š¬), since no one owns it. How do we navigate this predicament? genuinely curious #asknostr
š¤ no community notes "readers added context" for false information?
Early days, nostr:npub1w69ya7xs697hk3hky3gllryz8rwverfa0ylz89chf9qnhfcskc2s64zltw position was that NOSTR was a waste of time because (as I understood his argument) bitcoin wins without it but the critical step to bitcoin winning was medium of exchange functionality. He was annoyed with nostr:npub1qny3tkh0acurzla8x3zy4nhrjz5zd8l9sy9jys09umwng00manysew95gx and nostr:npub1guh5grefa7vkay4ps6udxg8lrqxg2kgr3qh9n4gduxut64nfxq0q9y6hjy for taking their eye off of the ball with respect to bitcoin and MOE development.
I really don't uderstand Bitcoiners defending Elon Musk or X..
Strong Agree
Elon Musk is the biggest blind spot humanity ever had.
He's such a scammer and a govgov puppet.
If you listen to his lies and fake promises, he looks like a good guy, but if you look at his actions, you'll see something completely different.
Lol those poor morons.
Here I am using a self-hosted web front end. Try and censor this shit MFers
You ever see a browser get censored?
I need a 3 hour Parker Lewis interview on the topic in order to understand WTF he's talking about.
Parker: ālove Elon. The endā
I thought this guy was supposed to be smart. Does he know websites exist too?
Blue checksā¦ā¦smh
I donāt know what happened to Parker. Heās been spitting a lot of opinions out there that donāt seem well thought out. Itās as if heās keeping his heels dug in with a narrow view and not challenging his thoughts even with considerable pushback.
lolz!
Sounds a lot like political partisanship, rather than a well-reasoned position.
He thinks freedom money wins out, but doesnāt think freedom client wins out š¤
š§
nostr:note1faymrczpf475gr96fxwazspk9h0us9dkfjejvn554ytrwl43lp4q5qg07m
Parker doesn't understand what protocol means š
This sounds like Ethereum logic tbh š³
Who's going to fork the repos?
you can censor anything, but the anount of energy required is highly related to the level of decentralization. Much like E=mcĀ². #networkedanarchy
As a Bitcoiner how does he NOT understand nostr?? Very perplexing..
#ngmi
My son does this too. I said, "look boy, I got you a nice basketball." He mumbles something about Agrippa's trilemma and infinite regression and complains that we can't really trust gravity to work with certainty anyway
Compliance Is DefianceĀ®
He should push for Elon to run a nostr relay and make X a nostr client. Problem solved.
Never in my life thought I'd see Parker Lewis become an L-machine but here we are
what the fuck is he talking about? thats crazy dumb.
thats cute š š
And Crypto is better than Bitcoin because the centralized founders can get big enough to tell the government to "shove it," too, I suppose?
Love the Gradually Then Suddenly series, but Parker Lewis is really on the struggle-bus when it comes to understanding Nostr.
Seems like someone is upset that he is losing his audience to NOSTR
We have specialization for a reason. Sometimes we we feel that because we have great insights in one area we also have opinions worth offering to others in areas that we actually don't understand.
Some people are retarded.
(Also an app getting censored, sounds like an iOS problem)
He fundamentally does not understand nostr
Example of having an idea without knowledge.
Iām so happy for him he has his trust in St. Elno of free speech.
Now what if he disagrees with him?
Wait until he finds out that you can host the same app on a gazillion different computers, auto-generate an endless number of apps, or that you can have N copies of the same app because they're open-source.
Apps are a commodity and therefore fungible.
there will be a day when he logs into a nostr client that runs your own local relay in-app that broadcasts messages with an outbox so that he can tell us nostr is censorable š¤£
I don't think people even realise any more that they own their computer, and they can do whatever they want with it.
I think people have been totally brainwashed by 'the cloud'.
Most people don't even use a real computer, anymore, they just use apps on their phones, so they're basically mental captives. Almost everything they do on there seems like magic, and they only use phones to make pictures and post them, or do VOIP calls.
Don't even have a real file system. LOL
Relays on phones are actually bringing a sort of file system to mobile.
Scary stuff. As you say there's a glimmer of hope with relays on phones and other innovative solutions.
But on the whole people it's a pretty bleak time for the way people understand and use computing. But also the best time because now we've got Nostr, it's strange how there's always a paradox between it being the best time and the worst time and the same time.
1. He seems to be critical - not of Nostr - but of the activism of funneling people away from channels that are efficient at reaching an audience in 2024. Why is it so important for some here to adcocate for a Nostr-only position when our reach on Nostr vs the general public is still extremely limited.
2. He is saying that Elon has better funds at his disposal vs Nostr app devs. Jack Dorsey was unable to bring free speech to Twitter because he lacked the funds necessary. Capital matters.
Of course, Twitter/X can still be overtaken by government pressure under Elon, so it makes sense that we have a presence on Nostr.
Instead of a Nostr *only* mentality I prefer a Nostr *also* outlook. Multiple communications channels is the way.
Elon will rug you
Yea, nostr-only is a virtue signal. There's nothing wrong with putting things in multiple places. If you get censored in some of them, so be it.
Yep. And the point with communication is to reach an audience.
Nostr will have better reach in a few years. It is easier to attract people to Nostr if we demonstrate confidence. Confidence means that we don't have a need to lash out at other communication channels.
I'm not sure that Nostr will have any reach if people look at it that way though.
If it's just an afterthought, and it's not where the audience has to go in order to interact with people, where's the incentive?
Surely enough people have to do decide to go Nostr only to actually get the snowball rolling?
Some will go Nostr-only, and yes, that is part of how it'll get traction. The dogmatic users push the unknown into the broader awareness. The "broader awareness" is the tough one though.
Looking at it like an afterthought isn't right exactly. Changes at the general level happen when a need isn't being met or when a prior way of meeting the need is inferior. That is the case here, seemingly. The rest of the obstacle is demonstrating why it's better to everyone that doesn't see why already.
Instead of as an afterthought, it's best to make it an in-addition-to approach. The existing systems are all competing with one another, Nostr isn't free from that competition. So, it should go on the list of "where to find me" with the legacy ones.
Introduction in this way is subtle, nearly frictionless and makes others ask people they trust already about it.
I just feel like if you see a list of where to find me, and the top 3 things in the list are all places that you've heard of already and you already have an account there, why would you ever bother with the number 4 spot on the list.
I think we need to achieve a critical mass of people saying this is no.1, and there is no 2nd best.
I see your point. I just know that the biggest changes are the hardest to make.
Because we don't reach the idiots anyways
How hard is it to make an Nsec and check it out for yourself
This is bizarre to say the least. I generally regard his opinions highly but he seems to totally miss the point there.
Isn't this an argument for using fiat instead of bitcoin too? More people use fiat and if someone censors your spending, you can use the very system that censors you to fight it (if you have enough money) š
I can always make my own client, or just host an open-source one. Already have a relay running, so I'm good.
He is living with an App / Play Store - only mentality.
It will be a strange but great day for him, when he will discover the existence of open source software paired with Obtainium and Zap.store
Exactly, people don't even realise how conditioned they are. It's your computer, you can do whatever you like with it!
"Bitcoin? Well, what happens when they just turn off the electricity? Checkmate."
Exactly, and this is why they can't just ban Bitcoin or Nostr. It would make the government illegitimate over night. Same thing Bangladesh where they just turned off the entire internet (literally) for days for quell protests. Yes it worked, but at a huge cost to the economy, and it cost the government any last shred of legitimacy they might have had in the eyes of the people.
Fortunately these dictatorial governments are largely incompetent, so they can't forsee the consequences of their desperate actions.
It would be possible to build an entire os on nostr. Own App-Store etc. The sky is the limit.
I really like Parker, but that is a weird take
Parker Lewis is a clown
Never would have imagined Parker with bad takes
Whatever point nostr:npub1w69ya7xs697hk3hky3gllryz8rwverfa0ylz89chf9qnhfcskc2s64zltw is trying to make here, it's all coming from his own personal view of the whole matter. But I don't agree with him.
One thing is for sure for both Bitcoin and Nostr: individual sovereignty. The idea is to eliminate a single point of failure (e.g., Elon Musk). In other words, there is no need to trust Elon/X as a savior when a technology (Nostr) can do. This is what most Brazilians are yet to discover. And, whoever is point them to Nostr, is only moving them in the right direction. Iron man is incapable saving the world.
As much as Elon is doing his best with X/Twitter, he's just an outdated hero in a world full of Nostr, and Bitcoin. It's up to the individuals to discover for themselves.
Isnāt the issue though that sure, you can retreat into Nostr and Bitcoin but lets say theyāre illegal, how is that going to change your life in the real world. If youāre just a pseudonym on a protocol and have value in bitcoin that you canāt spendā¦ I can see how this might give you hope and be a path to revolution but it doesnāt help your immediate reality. I know patience is key but there at least has to be a path visible
I mean, is unplugging from the matrix or whatever you call it enough? I think eventually you have to have heroes in the real world
I think you've answered your own question below when you said about unplugging from the matrix. That means you are in the real world. Bitcoin is technically illegal now in the sense that it's not legal tender, and yet that doesn't prevent you and another person from agreeing to transact in Bitcoin. Same thing with Nostr, if it's illegal, it will be up to people to just decide to use it anyway, but for ethically sound reasons that don't break anything morally enforceable laws. If enough people do that, an illegitimate government which had made that protocol illegal would crumble in days. And that's why they won't ban it, because they know the ban would weaken them.
They can ban X in Brazil because they know it doesn't weaken them. X isn't a protocol, it's a platform, so it's not morally neutral. Banning Bitcoin and Nostr wouldn't be like banning X.
Kind of like Winston and Julia in 1984 though. They agreed to transact secretly, and were discovered. The tension in the novel is even that maybe Julia is an Inner Party member, and the slap to both of them is that they donāt even betray each other, but the prole who rents them the room, the elderly Mister Charrington is an undercover member of the Thought Police.
Although not necessary by that point, a less total State could have held a public exhibition of the torture of Winston and Julia to quell any thoughts of defecting.
As Boromir might say, one does not simply opt out of totalitarianism.
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desart.[d] Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
No thing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
āāPercy Shelley, "Ozymandias"
everyone has bad takes and this is one of them
weird take
š¤
Parker in the running with Peter Todd for who can be more deranged about Nostr. š
wtf lol
Someone does not understand what protocol means, i guess he is trying to say that it could be made illegal to run a relay...
š¤·āāļø
nostr:note1faymrczpf475gr96fxwazspk9h0us9dkfjejvn554ytrwl43lp4q5qg07m
If primal was shut down and the founder arrested would you continue operations at Damus?
I disagree nostr:npub1w69ya7xs697hk3hky3gllryz8rwverfa0ylz89chf9qnhfcskc2s64zltw, are you still not convinced after the clear explanation and discussion with nostr:npub1a2cww4kn9wqte4ry70vyfwqyqvpswksna27rtxd8vty6c74era8sdcw83a recently on X? A good protocol is the only solution. Any person or organization is bound to mess up things, eventually. Bitcoin is in many ways very similar to Nostr. I respect your work as a Bitcoin advocate. This in essence is the same thing.
On chain apps... release apps as nfts ... is anyone else doing this already? I'm on it.
Arrest primal founder and team, arrest Damus founder and team. Arrest the others.
Now it will dampen usage and adoption potentially, but it will decentralize more. Itās that simple in my mind. Both sides are true.
also, has he heard of the web?
Well, I understand the main pros (network effect) and cons (centralization) of X, I'm not against it or Elon but the reality is that, as a Brazil resident, it is actually easier for me (and for a few other millions) to stick to Nostr š¤·š¼āāļø
So this Lewis kid is essentially saying that #Bitcoin (#nostr) wont make it because wallet apps (clients) and companies behind then can be censored? This is retarded in a bad way.
When Taleb started talking nonsense about bitcoin, I was certain all his books were written by a ghostwriter.
Now with this Lewis kid, the likelihood that his book was also ghostwritten is higher than the likelihood it was not.
Fucking onward! š«”
šššššÆšÆšÆšÆ
lol this is embarrassing
terrible take by Lewis
Pretty funny, coming from the guy who told everyone to delete Facebook.
Vote for me for mayor, and Iāll push back for you!
Censoring an app doesn't remove any notes you saw on that app from other apps.
lol, wow
he's right though - one day the FBI is going to be smashing in your door once Damus becomes a real threat. Right now the hydra heads are focused on X and the others, but in time, and with growth - developers need to actually consider their opsec
Elon has security, intel - what does a nostr dev have?
also, nothing is stopping us either - not yet anyway. The real tests are yet to come.
he's not right. if FBI shuts down Damus that will mean nothing. They will have to shut down every other iOS client and forks of Damus to disrupt iOS nostr users. Even if iOS becomes completely locked down you can still use PWAs and Damus android. Damus doesn't require any special infrastructure except relays. I've designed it so if I die or are imprisoned it will continue working.
well that's open source repos right? anyone can continue the work if the founders die.
Thing is though, what happens when they start chasing you because Damus becomes a threat? Say what you will about continuation, but Damus is yours fundamentally, you guide it's development. Fucking with that fucks with the community.
That's what i'm taking away from that dude's comment anyways.
Sir, these are nearly the same arguments made against #bitcoin since 2009. Quite literally speaking, both #nostr and bitcoin were specifically and painstakingly designed to not be censored.
I say this as gently and respectfully as possible, these āwhat ifā arguments are retarded.
did you read the OP note? I think you should re-read it again, then read what I said.
Take any dev that currently builds on nostr out, and what, whose going to take up the reins, you the community?
there's a reason nostr:npub180cvv07tjdrrgpa0j7j7tmnyl2yr6yr7l8j4s3evf6u64th6gkwsyjh6w6 is nostr:npub180cvv07tjdrrgpa0j7j7tmnyl2yr6yr7l8j4s3evf6u64th6gkwsyjh6w6
lol
So your new premise is now a hypothetical scenario where all capable nostr software developers are ādisappearedā and therefore no single person is left use the protocol to build a new client or relaunch an old one?
Again, this is retarded Sir. You are clearly trolling.
If William disappears because Nostr is so big and important you don't think there will be any other programmer in the world capable of forking it and continuing to develop it? And you don't think there will be a myriad of other independent apps people can switch over time?
I was just thinking nostr deva should really think about going anonymous seriously !
We know doxxed devs are a weak link in a resilient system now š„
why do you think Satoshi Nakamoto is a pen name? for the lols or for opsec?
The idea of open source protocols is that anyone can start freely building on it without anyones permission.
If there are none left willing to continue Damus development, then another iOS client will appear with another dev coding it.
It's hard to shutdown decentralized development, you have to chase every developer distributed across different countries/jurisdictions.
Until people find Nostr useful, it will be very hard, almost impossible, to shutdown the network.
you're telling me things I already know.
Re-read what will shared and read what I said. It's not hard to understand.
#damus != #nostr
Se algum presidente te chamar para almoƧar, recuse!
let's hope it doesn't come to that
how do we use damus android?
its still in development but its currently running on phones if you know how to compile things
āIāve designed it so that if I die or are imprisoned it will continue workingā.
Legit!
If one nostr app gets shut down, every user āaccountā will continue to function and every piece of content will continue to be available on countless other nostr apps. This is a nontrivial feature, and itās not true of X.
Relays in every region
My dad sed don't listen to them because they can't stop us and don't listen to what other people say and they can't stop us. We will defend freedom of speech
Ya got a great dad! I had one too...
decentralised systems are #antifragile. That's the wisdom of nature!
Awesome!!!
They wouldn't shut you down. The first step would be to outright buy you. Everyone has a price, so will you.
After that starts the route to "improve" Damus and for example introduce recommended relays to prevent "porngraphy" or some other excuse for our safety. You'll ever forget to improve critical features that users will beg you for years to implement.
Repeat this for other promissing clients, after a few years nostr will still be an exotic plaything whereas bluesky, mastodon and similar walled gardens will shine as champions for democracy, equality and human rights. Every now and then they'll take a hard stance at whatever government just to prove us they are on the right side of history.
Life is good.
That's the way.
nostr has relays, X has a database. Not the same. Cracking down on nostr is like cracking down on Bitcoin. Impossible.
developers are attack vectors - if you can id a dev to an app or service, you can nail them or even just make their life miserable enough to stop pushing the lead.
The protocol is fine; should always be as long as we have good actor relays and clients. But the devs can be attacked if they get to "big"
and it may not even be governments; fucking Meta-boy Zuck will get nostr:npub1ln4eae24r7dcq2cmlv9v5srhwcpfkjupuxs7fv72pd52kgrse5dqhh4uw8 into a triangle choke hold - whatchumean FBI, he'll deal with it himself 
Lol Zuckerli. I'd love to spar with that dude and kick his butt into Nirvana.
While you're right in terms of Devs being an attack vector they still won't be able to stop nostr. But events such as Pavel's arrest in France show us why Satoshi's disappearance was a good thing. The moment you attach your name or a company to your work you're making yourself a target šÆ
that's it - perfect example. Pavel is a centralised point of attack. In his case, he does affect telegram - here, no one individual affects nostr protocol or the essence of relays and sharing notes.
like you can't take out fiatjaf irl because of his opsec. same with satoshi. Opsec for nostr devs is important imo, which is what my point is. Sure you can't attack the protocol, but you can attack the humans around it.
but that's what I take away from this Parker dude tweets - Elon has security and money and influence to create a moat of protection. Fiatjaf, Satohsi used anonymity for protection.
Will, Kieran, Pablo etc. all are front facing devs - in this aspect they can be attacked and then whose gonna build zap.stream š¢ me? you? God save us.
I bet Mr. Parker will be on #nostr soon .. its a process .. one goes through such thoughts before they #capitulate :-)
Iām surprised Parker canāt climb out of that mental hole.
How analogous is this to browsers and the http protocol?
No one is gonna shut down "the web"
But would there be no material impact on the flow of information over the web if the state were able to, let's say, shut down Chrome, Firefox, and Safari?
It's more like shutting down Gmail, Hotmail, etc, and expecting it to be the end of email.
It might not be the end of email, but do people really think that would have zero effect??
It would have a huge immediate effect, mostly because people would lose their accounts. But in the long term life wouldn't change at all.
Also Nostr is different from this (better) because you can move your account.
There would be tremendous pain in that situation. Consider the businesses, infrastructure, and livelihoods that are built atop email addresses.
So that would be a pretty effective lever with which to coerce people.
All I'm saying is it would be nice to have some leverage against that, to prevent that suffering, not simply a protocol that will weather the damage.
Yes but imagine if you could take your email address and just log in using a different provider. Probably you wouldn't even claim to be using "Gmail" or "Hotmail", you would just say you're using "email". Just like we don't say we're on Damus or Amethyst or Primal now, instead we say we're on "Nostr".
Better protocol in that disruptions may not be painless, but they are much less painful.
Point taken. Itās hard to shake my current paradigms sometimes.
*sigh* it will have an effect, on people that rely only on Google or Microsoft, yes those people would be affected, but email in of itself wouldn't.
in fact I'd love for that to happen, it would make email open again; email has been controlled by powerhungry maniacs for years now all because google offered 1 GB of data in exchange for your privacy. The advent of gmail was literally one of the things that exponentially increased the speed of our descent into the surveillance dystopia we find ourselves in now.
I don't disagree with Gmail being a major culprit.
Maybe I'm catastrophizing, but given the interconnected nature of the economy, infrastructure, and livelihoods, I would think such a move would be more than the mere inconvenience of having to switch to protonmail or something.
There would be big ripple effects that do real damage.
Maybe that level of pain is inescapable if we want to tear free of the surveillance state. But it makes for a pretty effective lever of influence in the meantime.
this protocol lives rent free in his head āØ 
One can literally make a #Nostr client with a static html + websocket and run it locally!! WTF
Good weekend project, BTW!
nostr:nprofile1qqsx9nhcswrrqg4y78tq64y90jwh99jswqkflc38kzvgczmwxmztenspzemhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejz7qgwwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkctcpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmq44x7tg , I'm taking on your weekend projects concept and make this...
just tell people that you can't be demonetized on Nostr so you don't have to preface the majority of your censorship-related tweets with "elon musk has done more for free speech than the founding fathers" or whatever.
please read the whole conversation he has with nostr:npub17u5dneh8qjp43ecfxr6u5e9sjamsmxyuekrg2nlxrrk6nj9rsyrqywt4tp
it's more relevant than the clout generated by this screenshot.
more conversation, less friction. let's not create unnecessary conflicts.
Thanks for posting the full context, but I'm still think he's missing the point. Which is that #nostr is an open source protocol, so even if they kill one app there will be 10 others there to try and replace it, the same can't be set for closed source code because people have to build a competitor from scratch, which is a way more daunting task then building an app on a protocol.
History always repeats itself, all we need to do is replace a few words and we go back in time 40 years, hint: TCP/IP won, by a landslide
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Love the spirit and ethos of TCP/IP, hope that it takes off. But it is ironic that Louis Pouzin is doing more to push back on lawlessness + better data protocols and so many people are trying to funnel people away, while not admitting that TCP/IP is more limited than CYCLADES
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Isn't the idea that the potential number of protocols at least makes it more resilient?
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That's the theory but it doesn't work in practice. If any protocol gains dominance (think the majority of the internet), then it will be constrained. And then designers have a decision to make. And when one design caves...what is needed is architects with power to push innovation. Not just a protocol.
He's got a point actually. A decentralized protocol is pointless if clients are centralized.
It's like holding decentralized Bitcoin on a centralized exchange.
I have no idea how to decentralize clients though....
No he doesnāt have a point. clients are not centralized by definition. Clients are just code that talk to relays. You canāt censor code/information.
They can show up to the operators house and stick a gun to their head though. Single points of failure.
Operator of what? The client? Users? They are going to stick the gun to the heads of thousands of people and tell them to stop using code and their eyeballs. Not sure i follow
The owner of the client. For example, you, in relation to Damus.
Just like they did with Pavel Durov. They'll say, "Will, shut Damus down or we're putting you in a cage".
As a client operator, you need to prepare for that. Because eventually, it's a very likely scenario if Nostr takes off. This is a war.
Jailing me would do absolutely nothing. Damus is open source and doesnāt require any supporting infrastructure
How do we test this statement?
You have services though, no? API's, your Relay, iOS versions.
Basically, can the app run forever without maintenance? If not, those fail points will be targeted.
Open source is good. If the app can live in a way that even you can't shut it down in any way, you've solved this problem.
Remember Napster, kaza, and the like ?
All gone
We have our purple api but itās completely optional. Damus works without it. Damus will run after Iām dead and our team dissolves. So yes it can run forever, if something breaks someone can fix it and put a fork on the appstore.
Good. You're building robustly then.
On the iOS side, there's still App Store risk. Need good ways to sideload iOS apps without the store. Android is easy. I haven't see many non-jailbreak ways on Apple. Ideas?
You can always use PWA clients if the apps are banned. Is Apple going to ban websites too?
Ya that's a good way. PWA is under-rated. Loses device-based functionality like push notifications though.
Not to mention people can run the servers for those clients at home on something like a start9. You can run your own nostr-rs relay and nostrudel for the client. Is this what dispelling bitcoin fud was like in the early days?
No one is worried about the relays. They're quite decentralized. But you can't really use a relay without a client. Right now there's 3 main ones that work. That's why I raise the centralization point.
Open-source and forkable seems to be the most logical key to solving that. Looks like Will is doing that. Good.
Will check out Start9, looks interesting. Thx
Relays are important and the Nostr relays are built poorly. Without relays, your clients are nothing.
Also, it is important that independent relay operators sync with other relays. Data grows fast on Nostr. Management and spam protection isn't there.
How is there any comparison to a centralized exchange when Damus is just a pass-through for information. Theyāre not hosting anything for the user, other than simply running a relay which is optional to use.
These arguments are getting more retodded by the day.
How can a relay be optional? Nostr is pointless without a relay. Literally nothing
A relay isn't optional, but the one run by the client creator (damus, in this case) is.
Youāre missing the point. People interact with a protocol through the app. The app is what they know, what theyāre familiar with. They know nothing of the protocol. Because the most popular apps are likely to be accessed through wall gardens that invites control and censorship. Nostr app developers such as yourself already experienced this with the Apple App Store. Nostr does a better job of it compared to Facebook and Twitter, but itās not immune to the centralising forces of brand, convenience, and network effects.
You do not need an app to access Nostr. An internet browser is sufficient. Or if you have an android based phone you can load an apk yourself uncensorably. People are locked in the iPhone mindset to think the only option is an app from the AppStore, this is not true. There are other options.
Itās actually very easy to decentralize apps. With open protocol anyone can make their own app and when anyone with basic coding skills can make their own app using open source packages that exist then you have unstoppable decentralized apps. Parker is a smart guy but even smart guys sometimes show the ignorance when they donāt invest time to understand things
This is unexpected coming from Parker Lewis. How can he not know how NOSTR works? Thought he was a smart guy
Bad UX ???
I see a blue checkmark and I see a sellout. I move on.
My dad sed don't listen to them because they can't stop us and don't listen to what other people say and they can't stop us. We will defend freedom of speech
plus founders canāt push back from jailāwhere they potentially end up for not complying with gov requests.
Maybe he doesn't understand the relay model? Or how open source software works?
cognitive dissonance is one helluv a drug.
Perhaps the argument that Parker is trying to make is that if #NOSTR becomes too popular and ātroublesomeā, Apple and Google will just start delisting all apps that provide access to the NOSTR social network. It wouldnāt be the first timer Apple said, āif you donāt moderate your users, we will moderate you.ā
People have no frame of reference for nostr, the same way they didn't for bitcoin.
Takes time.
nostr:note1faymrczpf475gr96fxwazspk9h0us9dkfjejvn554ytrwl43lp4q5qg07m
Wow
This made me pause for a second. Itās really a slap in the face when you see someone you think he knows what he is doing do or say something that makes it obvious that he has no idea from the start. So you go back over in your head reevaluate everything he did/say no matter how confident he was looking when he did that.
Because there are no Browsers and no clients in the browsersā¦ what a terrible take and such overconfidence is like hubris if you donāt know shut the fuck up and pay the price of studying.
Keep pushing Nostr forward. The need for a non-censurable network will become apparent when the powerful will not push back but use that power to control and censor. Without a protocol that makes it simple to start a new community it will be difficult to escape control. I get that the point Parker is making is about the network effect but that becomes useless once thereās no freedom
Will he be the Schiff of #nostr? #asknostr
Temporary issue. If time this problems will desapear
They're not going to strip the web browsers out of their devices so technically it would always still be available no matter if Apple or Android removed every last single client app.
This is why I always preach that having an old school web UI is important.
These people are tards.
Decentralized freedom money but let your computing be dictated by a duopoly? Ok
Isnāt this just a misunderstanding of how the protocol works?
I think he just doesnāt understand nostr
Seems like he has failed to over stand the fundamental concept of Nostr ā¦ from a user perspective that is a UX design fail as the mental model is not clear to him #UX #Design #mentalmodels
Ah, the ol' 'Nostr Derangement Syndrome'āit's spreading faster than FUD! š Nostr isnāt here to be censored like some trendy social app. Itās like trying to cage a swarm of beesāgood luck keeping track of all the buzzing apps. Besides, if censorship could stop us, weād all still be using dial-up, right? Let's not confuse Musk's X for a protocol thatās basically the rebellious teenager of the internet. Nostrās not going to play by their rules, itās too busy building its own.
X is constantly censoring...
Isnt that a possibility?
Im brazilian, and after X was banned, they set a fine for anyone using VPN to access it. Also, they took X off the app store.
Honest question. Im not a tech guy.
Parker has always struck me as a mid wit.
how does he get bitcoin so well. But fail so hard at nostr šš
To me it's like he is saying that the internet is not a valid option because browsers can be censored.