cashu is not bitcoin.
giving up sovereignty for custodied privacy is not a tradeoff I will ever make. not to mention it completely screws over node runners by forcing everyone into custodial solutions to transact.
run nodes, they are the most private thing you can do.
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Yes! Exactly. Or even lightning, but not cashu.
Is the coinOS wallet in nostr:nprofile1qqsraldwhvwcjgltmxwfu7kw8dqef2692yhzheuurd7k3kfy8cxjdqgpz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqzxthwden5te0wpuhyctdd9jzuenfv96x5ctx9e3k7mgfgmy0m non-custodial and private?
we support non custodial and custodial options. this is what NWC enables.
?
the choice to upgrade to non-custody is the main point, I don't know why this is so difficult
so it's a build-in custodial wallet. right.
No, it's not a built-in wallet. It's the choice to use whatever you want via NWC. This includes a user using a NWC enabled Cashu wallet.
cashu people don't want user choice, they want to force their "solution" onto everyone.
in your head maybe
i must have hallucinated this
there are those who build, and those who get angry at others who build.
try building.
good one
This is such a tired and overly simplistic way of deflecting good faith criticism. Yes, there are people in the world who just want to destroy things. I don't think that's nostr:nprofile1qqsr9cvzwc652r4m83d86ykplrnm9dg5gwdvzzn8ameanlvut35wy3gpz3mhxw309aex2mrp0yhx5c34x5hxxmmd9uqsuamnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dshszythwden5te0dehhxarj9ekxzmny9u0ljp2l
haha I just love running nodes and it sucks that I wouldn't be able to use the payments in signal if this were adopted. mostly just a selfish thing.
good faith, nope.
Please explain this devious bad faith scheme of mine, whatever that means
I’m acting in bad faith because i don’t want to run software i don’t need. Ok bud
we have a joke that whenever anyone demos something cool with cashu, it's only a matter of time until jb55 hate-posts "soon I'll integrate non-custodial lightning node (soon TM)".
any day now!
I feel like im talking to a child who can’t handle an ounce of criticism. Grow up.
I think the point is if you don’t want to use it, you don’t have to. If you don’t like it, that is also ok. If you think it’s a bad trade-off refer to point 1.
Many users will use it and think it’s better than existing custodial options while making bitcoin more accessible.
you are describing nwc, which would allow us all to be compatible. They aren’t interested in integrating nwc, they want to implement their terrible solutions into everything and trick people into thinking it’s bitcoin.
got it. So that is your main gripe? Is there any argument not to allow them to talk to each other ?
we built an amazing p2p layer for sending and receiving bitcoin micropayments payments in a trustless manner. cashu folks are trying to subvert that and simply use it as a rails for doing token transfers between their nodes and convince people their tokens are bitcoin.
if app interfaces are coded to cashu instead of L2, then bitcoin micropayments effectively turns into free banking. Why people think that’s a good idea is beyond me.
I would rather go back and work on L1 or new L2 solutions if this is the route we’re going.
coinos wallet is bitcoin but cashu isn't lol.
Where did i say coinos is bitcoin, or can you only argue strawmen today. nwc is the point 🤦♂️
got it so it's NWC with a default custodial wallet?
Cashu wallets support NWC.
NWC is just a simple wallet API, comparing it to cashu makes no sense at.
I wouldn't say it's default. It's the advertised choice for people to get started with one tap setup.
I know they do, which is why I mentioned it.
🫂
Any project that requires a “mint” is suspicious
What about an employer paying an employee?
i think its best in trusted environments like this
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Somewhat related, wouldn’t ecash be great for company’s to run internally on their microservices? As a pay-per-request kind of thing? You could give users an ecash balance, burn the tokens as they’re used at the service. This would limit the attack surface, give visibility into the usefulness of the service, and other stuff (inherent economic information you can give AI agents to balance internal resources) idk
I think a simple database would suffice
We've talked with a few of the national regulators that employers would have to answer to on this one. We wanted cashu to work for this exact use case, but alas cashu is looking like a no-go in most jurisdictions. At lest not without so much plastic surgery that it'd not be cashu anymore, and you'd be better off just using NWC.
seems weird, was there a reason why?
Lots of reasons.
Employees thanking each other with sats is taxable income (unless you're in the UAE or some such place). All taxable income needs a reporting trail, and, say in the case of Singapore, must be pegged to the SGD equivalent at the time of transaction for reporting. Basically tax departments (and internal accounting teams) can't deal well with blind tokens flying around left and right. And if you gate it at the app and node level (take down names) so you have that audit trail then you have to ask what the point of cashu is anymore, besides nifty tricks with programmatic strings.
Another reason is that your system has to be defensible against threats like smurfing (look it up), and cashu is hard to defend against smurfing without making it not cashu anymore. It's like how many companies can't deal with AGPLv3 open source code since it can infect their proprietary code by accident and is seen as too dangerous to have in the codebase.
And a bunch more reasons, including the fact that Cashu by nature triggers a bunch of licensing headaches that custodial lightning + NWC does not trigger. NWC is accidentally pretty well-engineered for regulatory approval
Good point. I was initially exited for this ecask bitcoin in chat use case, but on second thought lightning and onchain integration would be better. Suddenly i remembered fiatjafs lightning bot on telegram a few years ago. Is there any ongoing work on lightning or onchain chatbots nowadays?
*ecash cashu nuts 😂
dawg, how is this any worse than the Coinos integration in Damus?
no choice to switch to something non-custodial. this is what NWC enables.
try nostr:nprofile1qyt8wumn8ghj7ct5d3shxtnwdaehgu3wd3skueqpzemhxue69uhky6t5vdhkjmn9wgh8xmmrd9skcqpqxnf02f60r9v0e5kty33a404dm79zr7z2eepyrk5gsq3m7pwvsz2s7szjpe wallet to see why you're wrong
I understand your perspective. NWC in Signal would be a cool option to have as well, albeit with some relative UX challenges.
Have you thought about it through a privacy lens though, or do you just not think that’s important in this context as zaps are public by default?
i just want to be able to use my wallet of choice to send a payment. maybe pull zaps help here
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that way the user can also redeem into any wallet they want directly with lightning
A bit difficult as it requires the sender to have a 24/7 online node.
I think hedgehog fixes this though cc nostr:npub1yxp7j36cfqws7yj0hkfu2mx25308u4zua6ud22zglxp98ayhh96s8c399s
a custodial node could mint these too though. the receiver can also use any lightning wallet.
🤦 then what problem are we solving for here?
To the same effect you can run your own Cashu mint and make it self-custodial
running a cashu node makes no sense for a single user
basically it's the same functionality as cashu, but users still get the option of running their own node for self sovereignty.
this is really my only gripe. I will never run a cashu node so I basically get left out of Bitcoin payment infrastructure even though I am running the nodes? make it make sense.
unless the goal is just to have lightning as the rails for custodial Bitcoin banks. if that's the future I don't want any part of it
Sure. I sympathize with you but your proposed solution has clear flaws.
Need something like proper async payment built into LN or Hedgehog. People are working on both of these.
I am not proposing anything crazy. just that NWC should be the standard for integration payments so that you don't force custodial payments everywhere.
we didn't build up the p2p lightning infrastructure just for it to be ignored and bastardized by custodial solutions.
it doesn't need to be a zap if you want to render something. the client could just send a DM once it verifies the payment went through. just basic lightning payments. receiver just needs a bolt12 offer or silent payment address in their bio.
Sure but you’re neglecting that NWC has tradeoffs.
When you use NWC+Coinos, which is the default in Damus, Coinos has full visibility into everything you do.
If you just used Coinos as a Cashu mint (which they offer) users would have better privacy.
yes it's users choice, that's the point. whether it be your own node or a cashu node.
in the future ideally we can get this this ux everywhere to avoid lnurl:
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im pretty sure my own node has more privacy than me connecting to a cashu node. we don't want to exclude people who want even more privacy
Defaults matter though. Would be curious to see what percentage of users here use the default custodial service vs self-custodial.
You’re also not taking into consideration the context of the apps as well. Social media app VS a private messenger: I’d argue for the former privacy is not so important whereas for the latter it’s imperative.
There’s a lot of nuance here and I think it sucks that you’re trying to moralize and shame something that would be genuine improvement in the ecosystem.
id be completely fine if it defaulted to a cashu node. I just want to be able to use my node for sending payments.
I’m not 100% sure on the Signal POC UX in its current state but you can absolutely do this with Cashu in general.
You can also set it up to automatically sweep Cashu payments to self-custody. We have done this in nostr:npub1xnf02f60r9v0e5kty33a404dm79zr7z2eepyrk5gsq3m7pwvsz2sazlpr5
would happy to see the code for that so i can use it anytime i need to sweep
If theres a send/recv solution i can implement with a tool then i would be happy. I just don’t want to run a cashu node because that makes no sense
I made Bankify as a POC for how easy it is to receive cashu and convert it to LN: https://github.com/supertestnet/bankify
As usual, I don't recommend using my code directly, but consider reimplementing it. It's not a lot of logic to do this.
thx will take a look
If Lightning and Bitcoin are successful then it’ll be the rails for many types and models of banks and probably new fintech models altogether.
Maybe not globally but I can already see geographically advantaged areas emerging.
And interestingly if the state doesn’t interfere with running a Cashu mint then Bitcoin will probably do best there as a result.
i feel like bolt12 invoice_requests solve most of the problems ecash is trying to solve? and it's done directly over lightning.
Everyone understands that, but Cashu solves one specific problem — anonymity. That’s what it’s for.
you give up sovereignty for privacy. bad tradeoff. I would be fine with it if you could upgrade to self custody, but you can't, it makes no sense to run a cashu node for yourself.
I'm fine with giving up sovereignty for certain things. Add long as the majority of my coins are sovereign. This gives me the opportunity to have a piece of both worlds.
Not everyone will be completely sovereign with their money. More and more are becoming that way, thankfully, but in the meantime, privacy is of utmost importance when using custodial solutions.
i get that, but there should be an upgrade path for those who want it. there is none with cashu.
it should not be "cashu for signal" it should be "NWC+lightning for signal". fine it can use a cashu mint by default. the desire to force people into custodial solutions seems very anti-bitcoin to me, and I don't know why so many cashu grifters are pushing this angle.
Could cashu be used by someone acting as an Uncle Jim? That'd be less of a tradeoff than a completely unknown 3rd party. Most people don't even want to consider complete sovereignty and still have too much trust in our old institutions to deal with the hassle. I don't think anyone is being forced to use custodial solutions, but for those that do, complete transactional privacy should be the norm.
yeah I think that's the best setup
doesn't damus come with coinos, a custodial wallet without privacy?
how does this make any sense?
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Can I interview both of you guys on this topic on a panel, a respectful conversation about sovereignty and privacy?
I'd like to lose the rhetoric "giving up sovereignty for custodied privacy" and instead discuss trade offs and risks we all make, encouraging people to look into bitcoin, nostr, cashu, Damus, and coinos.
The goal for me is just interviewing a couple of my most technically talented friends, secondary is mass market accessibility to these important topics.
👀
Ok!
I tried to figure out when I'm supposed to convert my lightning millisatoshis back to bitcoin but the beginners guide only mentions opening not closing channels.
You dont have to force everyone to be a purist. I run my own node, but sometimes tor is too slow or my node is down so i accept payemtns on minibits to later send home
nwc doesn't force anyone to be a purist. it works with both cashu and self custodied nodes
forcing people to use cashu is pushing a specific NWC connection type, it's the opposite of choice
Yeah, but the way in which you speak ("cashu is not bitcoin") ignores the fact that you are a power user and there are levels to this game. I spend time running my farm so i dont have time to make sure i have 100% uptime on my node.
did you just compare bitcoin on-chain privacy with cashu blind signatures. make it make sense.
🤣
This!
Zeus wallet allows you to go from cashu to self-custody lightning once you have enough sats
nostr:nprofile1qqswkczk5mqdpzpdnfrstm0wyg8pjjykftv3f0ukht07fauf9x3vnzqpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuetdwfjju7re0gq3wamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wwdkx7arg0yh8w6tw9u3av7ps Hate not really understanding this level of info
Will it end up like the internet? Hyper-centralized?
I’m happy to make the trade off for a $100 spending wallet…
Or for zapping 21 sats here & there
This is silly
If you had to choose:
would you rather use cashu or the new, non-custodial Wallet of Satoshi?
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I am not that interested in custodial anything to be honest. I didn’t get into bitcoin to store money on other peoples computers.
Nuts are for small amouts.
Similar with Lightning (which I will not use non custodial, to much pain).
Your comment is making sense when it comes to onchain payments but ecash is not competing w/ that, right?
Agreed no one would hold more than a days worth of value in ecash. It’s a useful off ramp for bitcoin as i see it.
Word!
wtf is cashu?
It's a bearer asset. A string of characters that the mint agrees to trade for bitcoin. E.g. your cashu wallet asks the mint to make a lighting payment for you, and you give it these cashu tokens to pay for it
So basically you swap lighting for cashu, and vice versa
The token is essentially an IOU with a serial number, signed by the mint
The cool thing of that the mint signs the IOU without seeing the serial number (cool maths going back to 1982), and therefore it's very private. The mint makes the payment, after verifying the signature and checking for double spending with the serial number, but the mint doesn't know who it originally issued that token to
Cashu wallets pay and receive lightning like any lightning wallet, but with this extra bit of privacy. It has other advantages too, I'm working on very high frequency micropayments with Cashu (sending a millisat, hundreds of times every second)
But the obvious risk if that the mint can steal it. So the balance should be kept small.
Ding! Ding!Ding!Ding!
CLINKMe.dev
✅ Push Damus users towards a custodial wallet without privacy (see their default wallet connect screen below)
✅ Take zero responsibility when those users got rekt because of Damus integration choices
✅ Throw shade at Cashu and the people who actually build useful freedom tech
✅ Lecture other builders about what’s real bitcoin or real nostr
Look, Primal has a built-in custodial wallet with KYC lite. We make difficult tradeoffs to legally deliver a product that is usable by newbs. There are no solutions; it’s tradeoffs all the way down.
I have no issues with the Damus design choices. Also, running a custodial service is not a simple task, and mistakes can happen.
But this endless larping and virtue signalling is insufferable.
It is a more private version of https://t.me/BitTipBot basically, fine for sending small amounts in chats
If Cashu isn’t Bitcoin then neither is custodial lightning.
I agree
I disagree. They both have use cases.
In saying that, I remember back around 2014 when a lot of stores started accepted Bitcoin we just relied on 0 conf transactions. The likelihood of someone trying to double spend small transactions is so low.
Just because it has a use case, doesn't make it Bitcoin. Fiat has a use case, still it's not Bitcoin.
Cut the rates boomer
I already cut the rates I charge your Mom. It's not my fault she's broke.
Cashu is a lot more complicated than bitcoin too. Anyone can send bitcoin. It’s very easy and intuitive. I watched an hour long YouTube video about cashu and I’m none the wiser on what it is or how it works.
Right so!
So the way I would see it is for Cashu to be a stepping stone for people new to Bitcoin. I feel like there should be a market for people who wants their coins to be custodied and have the ability for offline payments.
Cashu is great for spending, but not saving your coins. Use it as a spending protocol and you'll be fine.
It all sounds nuts
Full sovereignty for few dollars is overrated. At that level, I have other priorities.
Yeah we should just use mobile coin or whatever the fuck
